Master/Slave issue

[Guest]

I have 3 hard drives and a CD-ROM drive in my Dell 5250. C: (master) is a
Maxtor 300G PATA, D: is the CD, E: (slave) is an 80G Western Digital, and F:
is a Maxtor 300G SATA. I use Casper XP to clone C: to F: as part of my backup
strategy. Occasionally, I test the F: drive bootup capability by removing C:
and E:, and this works perfectly. The SATA drive becomes C: and works
flawlessly.

I'm having an issue with trying to run CHKDSK on the C: PATA drive. It
reports as dirty and scheduled for CHKDSK on next boot, but CHKDSK never
runs. Trying to get around this, I re-jumpered the PATA as slave (removed the
jumper, as instructed by diagram on disk case). Now when I boot up, the SATA
drive boots as C:, but the BIOS says the two IDE drives are UNKNOWN. I tried
to change the settings in the BIOS setup to manually tell the BIOS what the
drives are. But my only options in settings are AUTO or OFF.

Can anybody give me a hand with this conundrum?

 

[Timothy Daniels]

I have 3 hard drives and a CD-ROM drive in my Dell 5250. C: (master)
is a Maxtor 300G PATA, D: is the CD, E: (slave) is an 80G Western
Digital, and F: is a Maxtor 300G SATA. I use Casper XP to clone C:
to F: as part of my backup strategy. Occasionally, I test the F: drive
bootup capability by removing C: and E:, and this works perfectly.
The SATA drive becomes C: and works flawlessly.

I'm having an issue with trying to run CHKDSK on the C: PATA drive.
It reports as dirty and scheduled for CHKDSK on next boot, but
CHKDSK never runs. Trying to get around this, I re-jumpered the
PATA as slave (removed the jumper, as instructed by diagram on
disk case). Now when I boot up, the SATA drive boots as C:, but
the BIOS says the two IDE drives are UNKNOWN. I tried to change
the settings in the BIOS setup to manually tell the BIOS what the
drives are. But my only options in settings are AUTO or OFF.

To make a particular HD control booting, it should only be necessary
to reset the Hard Drive Boot Order in the BIOS. (The HD Boot Order
may be called something else in your particular BIOS.) Completely
disconnecting HDs higher in the HD Boot Order shouldn't be needed.

Your stated problem may have to do with the differing jumper
modes used by Western Digital and Maxtor/Seagate. You may have
2 slaves on the same IDE channel. Check the HD cases of each HD
to see that they are actually put into differing Master/Slave modes.

BTW, when you make a clone on F: partition of your C: partition,
remove the HD containing the C: partition before starting up the clone
OS for its first run. John John could better explain the reason for that,
but if the new clone sees its "parent" OS on the clone's first startup, it
does weird things in its registry. After the clone's first startup in isolation
from its "parent", it becomes "vetted", and it can thereafter see its
"parent" when its started with no problem. The converse is not a problem -
the "parent" can be started up anytime and see its clone with no problem.
Thus, if you want to use the "parent" to make initial settings in the clone
before the clone is started for its first run, it's OK. Such changes might
include putting a uniquely named file at the root level or to re-name a file
on the clone's Desktopto identify the clone as a clone.

*TimDaniels*

 

[Uncle Grumpy]

Can anybody give me a hand with this conundrum?

Maybe you just need a bigger one.

OH... I thought you said "condom".

 

[Guest]

Some drives jumper as Master (with slave) and also as Master (single drive).
Check the Manufacturer's site for jumper settings for the SATA.
You probably have the SATA jumper set wrong, as it has been working as a
Single drive.

 

[Lil' Dave]

Don't know of any ide HD manufacturer that lists removal of the jumper(s)
for slave.

WD lists most of their ide HDs to remove the jumper(s) for master alone (no
slave). The storage position for such a setup is 5-3 or 6-4 for such a
single jumper for master alone.

--
Dave
Profound is we're here due to a chance arrangement
of chemicals in the ocean billions of years ago.
More profound is we made it to the top of the food
chain per our reasoning abilities.
Most profound is the denial of why we may
be on the way out.

 

[Guest]

:

To make a particular HD control booting, it should only be necessary
to reset the Hard Drive Boot Order in the BIOS. (The HD Boot Order
may be called something else in your particular BIOS.) Completely
disconnecting HDs higher in the HD Boot Order shouldn't be needed.

The BIOS setting for boot sequence is floppy A:, HD C:, CD. Removing the
PATA C: and WD E:, the SATA becomes C: and boots properly. When the PATA
drive (jumpered for slave) and the WD are added back, the SATA is still C:
and boots properly, but the PATA & WD show up as UNKNOWN.

Your stated problem may have to do with the differing jumper
modes used by Western Digital and Maxtor/Seagate. You may have
2 slaves on the same IDE channel. Check the HD cases of each HD
to see that they are actually put into differing Master/Slave modes.

Are you saying that you cannot have to slaves on the same channel (i.e. one
must be master and the other slave)? I even tried adding back only one slave
and BIOS setting still shows up as UNKNOWN on that one slave.

BTW, when you make a clone on F: partition of your C: partition,
remove the HD containing the C: partition before starting up the clone
OS for its first run..........

This is a non-issue since I started up the cloned drive first without its
parent present.

 

[Guest]

Some drives jumper as Master (with slave) and also as Master (single drive).
Check the Manufacturer's site for jumper settings for the SATA.
You probably have the SATA jumper set wrong, as it has been working as a
Single drive.

The Maxtor site jumper settings show no jumper for Master, jumper on for
Delay Spin. The SATA drive boots as master with and without slave(s) attached.

 

[Guest]

Don't know of any ide HD manufacturer that lists removal of the jumper(s)
for slave.

The Maxtor site shows jumper setting as on 7-8 for master, none for slave.
(Check it out at
http://www.seagate.com/staticfiles/images/support/en/us/mxo_ata_jumpers_rev.jpg)

WD lists most of their ide HDs to remove the jumper(s) for master alone (no
slave). The storage position for such a setup is 5-3 or 6-4 for such a
single jumper for master alone.

I'm not concerned with the master setting for the WD. It is strictly a
slave and jumpered as such. And it works fine as long as the PATA drive on
the same channel is jumpered as master.

My question would be, is it permissable to have two slaves on the same IDE
channel, while the master is on the SATA channel?

 

[Bob I]

:



The Maxtor site shows jumper setting as on 7-8 for master, none for slave.
(Check it out at
http://www.seagate.com/staticfiles/images/support/en/us/mxo_ata_jumpers_rev.jpg)



I'm not concerned with the master setting for the WD. It is strictly a
slave and jumpered as such. And it works fine as long as the PATA drive on
the same channel is jumpered as master.

My question would be, is it permissable to have two slaves on the same IDE
channel, while the master is on the SATA channel?

Nope IDE must always have a master, second one is always Slave.

 

[Timothy Daniels]

The BIOS setting for boot sequence is floppy A:, HD C:, CD.

The Hard Drive Boot Order is not the Device Boot Order.
What you refer to above is the Device Boot Order, which prioritizes
the device types. The Hard Drive Boot Order, OTOH, prieoritizes
the hard drives that the BIOS finds, and the MBR of the HD at the
top of that list will be known as "rdisk(0)" by the loader, and it will
get control at boot time. Various BIOSes call the Hard Drive Boot
Order by various names, but it is usually presented on the BIOS's
menu screen as a list of the connected hard drives - which you can
rearrange according to your heartfelt desires.

Removing the PATA C: and WD E:, the SATA becomes C: and
boots properly. When the PATA drive (jumpered for slave) and
the WD are added back, the SATA is still C: and boots properly,
but the PATA & WD show up as UNKNOWN.

Right, I got that. And I asked how the WD hard drive was jumpered
because, as I wrote, the jumpering scheme for Western Digital hard drives
is different from those of other manufacturers. Western Digital even
differentiates between a lone Master on the channel and a Master with
a Slave on the same channel.

Are you saying that you cannot have to slaves on the same channel
(i.e. one must be master and the other slave)?

Yes. That is the purpose of the Master/Slave setting - to differentiate
the two hard drives for the IDE controller.

I even tried adding back only one slave and BIOS setting still shows
up as UNKNOWN on that one slave.

Which HD was it - the Maxtor or the WD - and what did you do
to set it as Slave?

This is a non-issue since I started up the cloned drive first without its
parent present.

Good. I suggest you obtain and read the User's Manual for your
BIOS to find out how to set the Hard Drive Boot Priority for your
hard drives. It may be called something like "Hard Drive Enabling"
or "Hard Drive Priority" or something else. Look especially for some
mode which may be ONLY for SATA drives and another which
may include SATA drives along with PATA drives. Your BIOS may
be set for the former mode, i.e. enabling SATA and disabling PATA.
Be aware that by altering the Hard Drive Boot Order, you will alter
the meanings in boot.ini of "rdisk()", so if your boot.ini file specifies
booting from "rdisk(0)", disk "0" may become disk "1" when you put
in a 2nd and/or 3rd hard drive. That will be evident by the system
booting from one HD when that HD is the only connected HD, and
some other HD taking over the boot control when you add in other
HDs. It appears from various postings that in some BIOSes, when
you enable a SATA drive, the PATA hard drives are moved down
in the Hard Drive Boot Order. That they aren't recognized by your
BIOS suggests that your current enablement setting disables PATA
HDs. So, get to know your BIOS as well as the WD jumpering
scheme.

*TimDaniels*

 

[Guest]

Nope IDE must always have a master, second one is always Slave.

Thanks, that answered my question. There is an IDE receptacle on the SATA
board. I'll try plugging in the PATA drive there and change the boot sequence
in the BIOS settings.

 

[Guest]

Thanks, that answered my question. There is an IDE receptacle on the SATA
board. I'll try plugging in the PATA drive there and change the boot sequence
in the BIOS settings.

That did the trick. With the IDE cable from the mobo plugged into the IDE
receptacle on the SATA board, changed the boot drive sequence, and booted to
the SATA drive. All drives were recognized and was able to perform chkdsk /f
on the slave PATA drive.

 

[Timothy Daniels]

Nope IDE must always have a master, second one is always Slave.

It is true that and IDE channel must have its HDs jumpered
differently.

But it is NOT true that a lone HD on an IDE channel must be
jumpered as Master. For signal reflection issues, a lone HD
should be put at the end connector of a dual-device IDE cable,
but the jumpering of that (non-Western Digital) HD is irrelevant.
The jumpering is only for differentiating between the 2 HDs if
there are 2 HDs on the same cable (i.e. same IDE channel).
I have even tried jumpering a Maxtor HD as Slave and putting
it at the end connector as the sole HD, and it booted fine.
I have also jumpered another Maxtor HD as Master and put
it at the intermediate connector while assuring that the HD at the
end connector was still at the head of the HD Boot Order, and
I found that the Slave HD continued to control booting.

*TimDaniels*

 

[Timothy Daniels]

There is an IDE receptacle on the SATA
board. I'll try plugging in the PATA drive there
and change the boot sequence in the BIOS settings.

There is a "SATA board"? Do you have a PCIe
expansion board for your SATA controller?

*TimDaniels*

 

[Lil' Dave]

I must have a comprehension problem with your original post. I read that
you re-jumpered an ide drive as slave by removing a jumper. Must have been
wrong....

--
Dave
Profound is we're here due to a chance arrangement
of chemicals in the ocean billions of years ago.
More profound is we made it to the top of the food
chain per our reasoning abilities.
Most profound is the denial of why we may
be on the way out.

 

[Frank]

It is true that and IDE channel must have its HDs jumpered
differently.

But it is NOT true that a lone HD on an IDE channel must be
jumpered as Master. For signal reflection issues, a lone HD
should be put at the end connector of a dual-device IDE cable,
but the jumpering of that (non-Western Digital) HD is irrelevant.
The jumpering is only for differentiating between the 2 HDs if
there are 2 HDs on the same cable (i.e. same IDE channel).
I have even tried jumpering a Maxtor HD as Slave and putting
it at the end connector as the sole HD, and it booted fine.
I have also jumpered another Maxtor HD as Master and put
it at the intermediate connector while assuring that the HD at the
end connector was still at the head of the HD Boot Order, and
I found that the Slave HD continued to control booting.

One won't do the above with Western Digitals.

 

[WaIIy]

It is true that and IDE channel must have its HDs jumpered
differently.

Actually, no.

They can both be cable-select in this day and age.

 

[Bob I]

It is true that and IDE channel must have its HDs jumpered
differently.

But it is NOT true that a lone HD on an IDE channel must be
jumpered as Master. For signal reflection issues, a lone HD
should be put at the end connector of a dual-device IDE cable,
but the jumpering of that (non-Western Digital) HD is irrelevant.
The jumpering is only for differentiating between the 2 HDs if
there are 2 HDs on the same cable (i.e. same IDE channel).
I have even tried jumpering a Maxtor HD as Slave and putting
it at the end connector as the sole HD, and it booted fine.
I have also jumpered another Maxtor HD as Master and put
it at the intermediate connector while assuring that the HD at the
end connector was still at the head of the HD Boot Order, and
I found that the Slave HD continued to control booting.

*TimDaniels*

Ok, minor correction, to comply with IDE standards, the first IDE device
must always be a master, second one is always Slave.

While you may sometimes get away with ignoring the standards, it tends
to avoid a lot of troubleshooting when things start acting up.

 

[Guest]

There is a "SATA board"? Do you have a PCIe
expansion board for your SATA controller?

*TimDaniels*

Right. The Dell 5250 doesn't have any built-in SATA capability. So, when I
bought the SATA drive, I also had to buy the SATA controller PCI board.

 

[Timothy Daniels]

Actually, no.

They can both be cable-select in this day and age.

Regardless of how the Master/Slave mode is set - by jumpering
or by Cable Select - they must be different for the 2 HDs on the
same cable. And before you jump on *that*, it applies only to PATA
hard drives since each SATA HD has its own cable.

*TimDaniels*