Laptop Performance Revelation

[Ron Reaugh]

Some small format/ultracompact laptops suffer from a major performance
deficiency that is being hidden by laptop manufacturers.

Intel CPUs come with built in thermal sensing and self throttle when too
hot. Some small format laptops simply can not EVER run at full rated CPU
speed for more than short bursts in a room at normal temperature, 20C.
Their design includes insufficient thermal dissipation for continuous
saturated CPU usage. Such continuous CPU usage is seen in backups using
data compression and many other types of CPU intensive processing like voice
recognition, some games, some video processing and Matlab. A Toshiba 3500
TabletPC I've been studying can at best run continuously at about 600
MHz(spec is 1.33GHz Pentium M) in a 25C room. A Sony X505 contains a very
obfuscated disclaimer regarding CPU speed in its spec sheet on its website
which is this issue. Similar obfuscated disclaimers about CPU speed do
appear in both the 3500 and M200 spec sheets at Toshiba's website.

This is not a battery saving issue where CPU throttling is a designed in
positive advertised feature/advanatge. This is all about when the laptop is
AC powered and one ASSUMES that the laptop provides full performance. It
does NOT!

One can see this behavior using a program like MobileMeter which will show
the CPU temperature jumping to a maximum like 88C and then the CPU speed
plummets.
http://dssc3031.ece.cmu.edu/~tamaru/mobilemeter/mobilemeterreadme-e.htm
download:
http://www.geocities.co.jp/SiliconValley-Oakland/8259/release/0310/mm0310.zip

Large format laptops like the Sony K27 and Gateway M505 have sufficient
cooling and will run at full rated CPU speed continuously.

Is anyone aware of this issue and how widely spread this is?

 

[Nathan McNulty]

We heard the last time you posted this. Now stop complaining and be
happy with what you have.

 

[Ron Reaugh]

We heard the last time you posted this. Now stop complaining and be
happy with what you have.

So the coverup is underway.

 

[Bruce Chambers]

Some small format/ultracompact laptops suffer from a major
performance
deficiency that is being hidden by laptop manufacturers.
.......

Is anyone aware of this issue and how widely spread this is?

I didn't realize that this old "news" would have come to a
surprize to anybody, anymore. Just get back from a decade in the
Outback?

--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:



You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on
having
both at once. - RAH

 

[Ron Reaugh]

I didn't realize that this old "news" would have come to a
surprize to anybody, anymore. Just get back from a decade in the
Outback?

It's not old news and most folks do NOT know that some laptops will not run
at full speed when connected to AC power.

 

[Bruce Chambers]

It's not old news and most folks do NOT know that some laptops will
not run at full speed when connected to AC power.

Yes, actually, it is old news to anyone reasonably familiar with
computers. And everyone would know if they bothered doing a bit of
product research _before_ purchasing the product. Don't project your
lack of forethought on to everyone else. (Although, I'll grant you
that an alarming number of people are awfully short-sighted and
otherwise ill-equipped to deal with many of life's daily situations.)

--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:



You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on
having
both at once. - RAH

 

[Ron Reaugh]

Yes, actually, it is old news to anyone reasonably familiar with
computers. And everyone would know if they bothered doing a bit of
product research _before_ purchasing the product.

That's false. Take the Sony X505 for instance...how would you know?

Don't project your
lack of forethought on to everyone else.

Nice try...where's the beef...where has my claim been described before?
Come on lets have a URL or even old NG archives in Google....let's see it!

(Although, I'll grant you
that an alarming number of people are awfully short-sighted and
otherwise ill-equipped to deal with many of life's daily situations.)

When you can't carry the day with facts then attack the poster...we've all
seen your kind before.

 

[Chris H.]

While, as others have already noted, this isn't "new" news. And while such
information is good to have, you can still talk to people and they don't
investigate, don't listen and then don't act on the warnings. You cannot do
anything about human nature under pressure from a salesman to ask the right
questions or get the correct answers.

And you added in a form factor new (two years old this coming November) to
the scene, which you should really take a longer look into the information
before you start talking about: Tablet PCs. First, most don't have the
graphics "horsepower" to run a lot of games which are intensive, and second,
the cooling factor is paramount on a Tablet PC. Convertible models turn the
screen around a put it down over the most traditional vent - the keyboard.

There are even a few models which do not have fans, but instead use the
latest in heat-dispensing hardware along with newer, faster and cooler CPUs.
Combine that with the inability of a whole lot of games to switch
orientation (Tablet PC displays can rotate in any of four directional
settings, unlike a laptop or desktop) and most games are not pen-aware so
cause control problems unless run with a traditional mouse.
--
Chris H.
Microsoft Windows MVP/Tablet PC
Tablet Creations - http://nicecreations.us/
Associate Expert
Expert Zone -

 

[Ron Reaugh]

While, as others have already noted, this isn't "new" news.

So why not just provide a few URLs then?

And while such
information is good to have, you can still talk to people and they don't
investigate, don't listen and then don't act on the warnings. You cannot do
anything about human nature under pressure from a salesman to ask the right
questions or get the correct answers.

The salesmen do not know this little detail about small format/ultra
compacts!

And you added in a form factor new (two years old this coming November) to
the scene, which you should really take a longer look into the information
before you start talking about: Tablet PCs. First, most don't have the
graphics "horsepower" to run a lot of games which are intensive, and second,
the cooling factor is paramount on a Tablet PC. Convertible models turn the
screen around a put it down over the most traditional vent - the keyboard.
Yes.

There are even a few models which do not have fans, but instead use the
latest in heat-dispensing hardware along with newer, faster and cooler CPUs.
Combine that with the inability of a whole lot of games to switch
orientation (Tablet PC displays can rotate in any of four directional
settings, unlike a laptop or desktop) and most games are not pen-aware so
cause control problems unless run with a traditional mouse.

So what does any of this game stuff have to do with the fact that a TabletPC
like a Toshiba 3500(Pentium M 1.3 GHz) will take 4 times longer to do a
compressed backup than another large format laptop like a Gateway
M505(Pentium M 1.6GHz)?
That's the issue. These ultracompacts simply can not ever run their CPUs at
their rated speed for longer than brief bursts.

They gotta tell folks that!

 

[Nathan McNulty]

Unfortunately, none of your responses to Bruce's post had any relevancy.
First, you would know the Sony X505 had problems if you search the
internet to see if anyone is complaining. So you bought a computer and
don't like it now that you've found out it sucks. RETURN IT!

Where's the beef??? What are you hungry? The exact same post was posted
twice in these newsgroups once on the 15th and once on the 18th. Truth
is that nobody cares that you bought a computer that sucks. Anyone who
doesn't do research before buying a computer isn't going to know the
difference. Basically, if you aren't computer literate, it most likely
doesn't matter what the PC can do as your demands on the PC aren't going
to be very high. Now if you are computer literate and need the higher
demands, you would know better and do resaerch before buying.

 

[Nathan McNulty]

Here's some advice. Return whatever you bought and move into the woods
away from society. You'll be doing both of us a favor.

This whole post is just stupid. Who cares if your laptop doesn't do
what you expected it to do? Instead of complaining about it, go sue the
company.

 

[Ron Reaugh]

Unfortunately, none of your responses to Bruce's post had any relevancy.
First, you would know the Sony X505 had problems if you search the
internet to see if anyone is complaining. So you bought a computer and
don't like it now that you've found out it sucks. RETURN IT!

Nope, don't own one.

The issue is consumer fraud and today there has been a report that the
Thinkpad T41p and T42p suffer from this undeclared throttling.

The presence of a VGA connector, which implies desktop replacement
capabilities, on many of these ultracompacts compounds the fraud.

Intel has protected itself by stating in the Pentium M specsheet that users
expect full performance when on AC power.

Where's the beef??? What are you hungry? The exact same post was posted
twice in these newsgroups once on the 15th and once on the 18th. Truth
is that nobody cares that you bought a computer that sucks.

Nice try but now you are becoming obviously an under bridge dweller.

Anyone who
doesn't do research before buying a computer isn't going to know the
difference.

So far you repeatedly REFUSED to supply any URLs or references where such
research would have obviated the information I've supplied. That's because
it is NOT out there...I looked.

Basically, if you aren't computer literate,

At least I'm not a freakin charlatan as you now are clearly exposing
yourself to be for all to see.

it most likely
doesn't matter what the PC can do as your demands on the PC aren't going
to be very high. Now if you are computer literate and need the higher
demands, you would know better and do resaerch before buying.

Where's the beef bucko?

 

[Ron Reaugh]

Here's some advice. Return whatever you bought and move into the woods
away from society. You'll be doing both of us a favor.

Which hardware manufacturer are you trying to cover the fraud for? Who do
you work for?

This whole post is just stupid. Who cares if your laptop

I don't own a laptop, cretrin.

doesn't do
what you expected it to do? Instead of complaining about it, go sue the
company.

Some AGs will likely do that for us before long if the "feature" isn't made
clear in their specs.

 

[Nathan McNulty]

Haha, don't make me laugh. If you are so big on URL's, why don't you
post one proving this HUGE performance decrease?

Here's a stupid quote for you: "The presence of a VGA connector, which
implies desktop replacement capabilities, on many of these ultracompacts
compounds the fraud."

It most certainly does not mean these laptops are desktop replacements,
nor does it compound any fraud. The presence of a VGA connector simply
adds capabilities to a laptop to be connected to either a desktop
monitor or a projector. Laptops have had these for as long as I can
remember. The most common use for these are projectors which are
extremely portable as well, but apparently you didn't know this. Hmmm.

Once you learn a little more about computers, you can come back and call
me a charlatan. If you are so upset about this, sue the companies
making these "borked" computers. I am simply saying you must be an
idiot to buy a computer without doing some research. Also, with all of
your claimed performance decreases on the ThinkPad T41p and Sony X505, I
have not been able to find anything about this. In fact, I found
exactly the opposite, and I quote:

"When connected to a power socket the performance is stunning, with the
T41p managing a SYSmark 2002 score of 174, making it the fastest Pentium
M based notebook we've seen. Of course the superb 3D scores and the
incredible battery life just make the performance story even stronger.
All in all you're not going to find a slimline notebook with better
performance than this one."

Taken from: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/01/29/ibm_thinkpad_t41p/

Why don't you show me reviews that show the opposite? Post some URL's
of your own. You had absolutely no backup data in your original post
and now you want data from us to discredit your post? Once you are
finished with your double-standards and unfounded claims, then you can
make a valid arguement.

 

[Nathan McNulty]

I don't work for any company and until you can provide solid proof of
your so-called "feature", I am not willing to listen to your compaints.
You have made it quite clear that you expect these computers to work
like a home appliance instead of the complicated hardware that it is.
Even a desktop computer will slow down when overheating if you run it
through heavy testing. This is usually seen on OEM machines that use
cheap methods of cooling and aim for quiet instead of performance.

Again with the request for URL's when you provided absolutely no proof
or URL's in your posts with exception to a couple of tools. Don't be a
hypocrite.

 

[Ron Reaugh]

Haha, don't make me laugh. If you are so big on URL's, why don't you
post one proving this HUGE performance decrease?

Why don't you show me reviews that show the opposite? Post some URL's
of your own. You had absolutely no backup data in your original post
and now you want data from us to discredit your post? Once you are
finished with your double-standards and unfounded claims, then you can
make a valid arguement.

Charlatans are so easy to dismiss. They always shoot themselves in the ass
and usually in public and the really dumb ones do it all within the same
thread.

YOUR first post in this thread:
"This is a known issue. This is why there is such a push for Low K
fabrication which attempts to reduce not only the power consumption, but
also the heat. You cannot cram a Pentium 4 Desktop chip into a laptop
and expect it to deal with the heat in the same manner as a desktop
would. There is not enough space for the heatsink that is necessary.
Also, you may notice that the heat on those laptops are enough to burn
people. The chips can actually take quite a bit of heat, but they do
prevent damaging themselves by reducing their clock frequencies."

You're dismissed, charlatan.

My claims are clear and easy to measure with MobileMeter and more are
reporting supporting findings. Anyone can look at the fine print at the
Toshiba and Sony sites for the 3500, M200 and X505. Google my threads on
this issue.

 

[Chris H.]

Please take this discussion to a newsgroup outside Windows XP games. It
doesn't belong here.
--
Chris H.
Microsoft Windows MVP/Tablet PC
Tablet Creations - http://nicecreations.us/
Associate Expert
Expert Zone -

 

[Ron Reaugh]

One would always hope that such behavior could be avoided in serious NGs but
sometimes it's unavoidable.

In general this issue does belong in this NG as some games are CPU
intensive. To the extent that such games are pleasantly playable on large
format laptops is the issue.

Such CPU intensive games may not be playable on small format or ultracompact
laptops like the Sony X505, Toshiba 3500 & M200. These small laptops by
design will NOT allow the CPU to run at their full rated speed continuously
but only in short bursts. Such small laptops are crippled for any long CPU
intensive task.

Large format laptops like the Vaio K27 and Gateway M505 do NOT suffer from
this CPU temperature throttling.