Is it possible to save RealMedia movies from the BBC website?

H

Harvey Van Sickle

On 20 Aug 2005, John Corliss wrote

-snip-
As for saving streaming RealMedia to one's hard drive, a cursory
research on the internet has shown me that this is usually not
going to be possible for two reasons:

1. Real has incorporated proprietary coding in their media format
that blocks players which do things which Real doesn't want them
to do, like recording streaming media for instance.

Can you give me an example of a site which has implemented this in an
effective manner so I can test it? I use a well-known (paid-for)
recording program which sets up a virtual sound card to record anything
going through the machine (including microphone inputs for dubbing, as
well as streaming media), and so far I've never found a site where the
stream isn't captured cleanly and easily. I'd love to test it against
a known "blocking" site.
2. Real agressively pursues legal action against companies who put
out software for downloading streaming media.

I know that Streambox was targetted, but AFAICT a quick google doesn't
find any legal action against programs like "Total Recorder". I know
that the media giants are lobbying for the US government to ban *all*
software which enables audio recording from other media, but that's
still a long way off. (They'd have to get "fair use" banned for
videos, wouldn't they?)
This isn't to say that all RealMedia can't be saved to hard drive,
but companies who want to block this from happening can easily do
so.

Actually, I don't think they *can* block it, easily or otherwise -- at
least, not the audio streams. (Video appears to be another matter.)
At the very least, I've never found an audio source that can't be
captured with the program I use.

Again, though, I'd love to do some tests against known "blocking"
sites, if you can point me to the ones you've found.
 
J

John Corliss

Harvey said:
On 20 Aug 2005, John Corliss wrote

-snip-




Can you give me an example of a site which has implemented this in an
effective manner so I can test it? I use a well-known (paid-for)
recording program which sets up a virtual sound card to record anything
going through the machine (including microphone inputs for dubbing, as
well as streaming media), and so far I've never found a site where the
stream isn't captured cleanly and easily. I'd love to test it against
a known "blocking" site.




I know that Streambox was targetted, but AFAICT a quick google doesn't
find any legal action against programs like "Total Recorder". I know
that the media giants are lobbying for the US government to ban *all*
software which enables audio recording from other media, but that's
still a long way off. (They'd have to get "fair use" banned for
videos, wouldn't they?)




Actually, I don't think they *can* block it, easily or otherwise -- at
least, not the audio streams. (Video appears to be another matter.)
At the very least, I've never found an audio source that can't be
captured with the program I use.

Again, though, I'd love to do some tests against known "blocking"
sites, if you can point me to the ones you've found.

Harvey,
I was mainly talking about video streams. Sorry I didn't clarify
this. Also, as I first mentioned, my remarks were based on a cursory
Google based exam of the web.
 
H

Harvey Van Sickle

On 20 Aug 2005, John Corliss wrote
-snip-
Actually, I don't think they *can* block it, easily or otherwise
-- at least, not the audio streams. (Video appears to be another
matter.) At the very least, I've never found an audio source
that can't be captured with the program I use.
Again, though, I'd love to do some tests against known "blocking"
sites, if you can point me to the ones you've found.
[/QUOTE]
Harvey,
I was mainly talking about video streams. Sorry I didn't
clarify this.

Ah: sorry, John -- I probably should have read the whole thread more
closely than I did. Apologies.
 
R

Richard Steinfeld

John said:
Richard, this isn't really strange at all when you consider that (at
least in the U.S.) most of the articles you read in the press, or see
and hear in media come from one huge monopolistic press agency - the
"Associated Press".
"IMO" AP is totally in bed with the government. I.e. the government
doesn't need to control the press since they both kiss each other's asses.

You getting them mixed up with UPI? UP is owned by Rev. Moon, as is the
Washington Post. When I worked in radio, UP was considered the better
(less biased) of the two major services. I was given, however, some
pretty nasty rip-and-read features -- outrageous yellow journalism --
that I outright refused to read over the air; these pieces violated UP's
handbook which cautioned against linking hotbutten words together, as in
"leftist student agitators." And AP was considered to be _worse._ Of
course, this was a long time ago. In the meantime, Reuters came to the
US -- I've always preferred the coverage of our country by people based
elsewhere, so I've viewed the arrival of Reuters as a good thing.
Unfortunately, the CBC had their budgets cut so drastically that they
don't seem to be able to do stories from here any more.

Free press, free speech, freedom of association, etc. all of these no
longer really exist in many ways. However, our (U.S.) government strives
in a half-assed way to maintain the illusion that this isn't the case.
You might notice that you rarely hear references to the United States as
being a "free country" anymore.

No; there's this Kahuna who says, "They hate our freedom."

As for simply viewing and hearing the RealMedia streams, Real
Alternative works on my system to view or listen to BBC streaming media.
However, the following questions:

1. where does Real Alternative originate

2. if it's on the level, why doesn't Real go after the person who is
responsible for it

still haven't been answered to my satisfaction.

Oh, wow, we've been over this so many times, John. I've got the dry
heaves. I think someone established a while back that the Real
Alternative file set did, in fact, contain some sort of spyware. I'll
say, though, that I haven't caught the bastard phoning the mother ship.

And I believe that Sygate would ring my chimes if this occurred. Sad to
say, we should all be on the lookout for a replacement for Sygate now
that it's gone to the enemy's camp. One little nasty about Sygate we've
not discussed is that you can hit the brick wall of the 20-rule limit. I
just maxed this out last week, so even before I heard about the Sygate
acquisition, I was thinking about replacing it. You see, my ISP
transmits to me from their "latency tester," and Sygate blocks this, not
having a rule to permit it. And I can't create the rule to allow it
because that would be rule #21 (gotcha).

As for saving streaming RealMedia to one's hard drive, a cursory
research on the internet has shown me that this is usually not going to
be possible for two reasons:

1. Real has incorporated proprietary coding in their media format that
blocks players which do things which Real doesn't want them to do, like
recording streaming media for instance.

2. Real agressively pursues legal action against companies who put out
software for downloading streaming media.

This isn't to say that all RealMedia can't be saved to hard drive, but
companies who want to block this from happening can easily do so.

Actually, there are ways around this. I'll explain. At some point within
your system, Real converts to a straight audio signal -- I'm talking
about analog now. You see, this is the only way to get the music from
your computer into your speakers, headphones, what have you. Now (heh
heh) all one needs is to capture this ordinary _audio_ signal, and stash
it any which way you want (.wav, .mp3, OGG, you name it). I haven't
bothered because it's not often that I'll actually want to save what I
download. Now, I download the Real audio directly to cassette tape or
directly into my teentsy MP3 player. In the last case, the player
converts line-level audio directly to MP3 format. And it's just great
for speech.

Real sound is compromised (as is MP3). Like MP3, the degree of
compression is set by the party who encodes the signal. Therefore, some
of the audio can be horrendous, and some is pretty decent. You want bad?
Try downloading something from KPFK (the sound is at the edge of
screeching). You want better: try the BBC or "On The Media," from WNYC
(a wonderful, enjoyable show, by the way).

I've seen mentioned here recently a couple or so programs that can
capture real streams to digital form, and I have a hunch that this is
the way that they do it -- grab it from analog audio. Hell: why not. My
experience with the two methods that I use indicate that going digital
within the computer itself would be as good.

How's that?

Richard
 
R

Richard Steinfeld

Harvey said:
Actually, I don't think they *can* block it, easily or otherwise -- at
least, not the audio streams. (Video appears to be another matter.)
At the very least, I've never found an audio source that can't be
captured with the program I use.

Again, though, I'd love to do some tests against known "blocking"
sites, if you can point me to the ones you've found.

Harvey, Real's technology is designed to be unable to save a stream to
disk. It's not a site: it's real's design. People can click on a link in
Real Player that does a "save." And you think that you've saved the
stream. What you save is only a link, so that when you want to replay
what you think you've saved, you actually make two connections: one to
the content provider for a fresh download, the other connection (unknown
to you unless your firewall will catch it) goes out to Real for their
payload: a fresh "serving" of advertising.

Richard
 
R

Richard Steinfeld

hummingbird said:
Whereas BBC World Service Radio is funded by the Foreign Office
on the basis that it spreads happiness and warmth about Britain; the
BBC World TV channel is supposedly self-funding from selling itself
around the world and various add-on services. I have little doubt this
is untrue and that World TV is very likely discreetly subsidised by UK
taxpayers like WS Radio.

I don't know if you've kept up, but BBC pulled the plug on radio
transmission to North America around three years ago, leaving major
holes in our shortwave bands. Now, the only way for us to receive BBC
audio is over the Internet with Real technology (!). And, of course, if
one lives within range of a large city, one might be able to receive
certain BBC programs, with excellent fidelity, re-transmitted from a
local public radio station.

Shortwave used to be so cool. We had the Beeb, Radio Moscow (with their
slant), Voice of America (with their slant), Radio Nederland (super),
and the US fundamentalists, blasting program content from El Cerrito
California through a humongous transmitter in Quito, Ecuador. Short wave
used to be a lot of fun. Oh, I forgot the boring Chinese lessons from
Taiwan.

Pity.

Richard
 
H

Harvey Van Sickle

Actually, I don't think they *can* block it, easily or otherwise
-- at least, not the audio streams. (Video appears to be another
matter.) At the very least, I've never found an audio source
that can't be captured with the program I use.

Again, though, I'd love to do some tests against known "blocking"
sites, if you can point me to the ones you've found.

Harvey, Real's technology is designed to be unable to save a
stream to disk. It's not a site: it's real's design. People can
click on a link in Real Player that does a "save." And you think
that you've saved the stream. What you save is only a link, so
that when you want to replay what you think you've saved, you
actually make two connections: one to the content provider for a
fresh download, the other connection (unknown to you unless your
firewall will catch it) goes out to Real for their payload: a
fresh "serving" of advertising.[/QUOTE]

I'm familiar with that sort of "saving" of a link, but that's not what
I'm describing. When you use a streaming-audio "capture" program --
"Total Recorder" is the one I use -- it sets up a virtual sound card:
that captures the stream itself.

I regularly capture Real media streams from the BBC and WMP streams
from the CBC this way, and cut them to a CD to listen to the
programmes in the car. (The resulting captured files are around
500MB/hour of programme for a .wav file.)

-
Cheers,
Harvey
 
J

John Corliss

Richard said:
You getting them mixed up with UPI? UP is owned by Rev. Moon, as is the
Washington Post. When I worked in radio, UP was considered the better
(less biased) of the two major services. I was given, however, some
pretty nasty rip-and-read features -- outrageous yellow journalism --
that I outright refused to read over the air; these pieces violated UP's
handbook which cautioned against linking hotbutten words together, as in
"leftist student agitators." And AP was considered to be _worse._ Of
course, this was a long time ago. In the meantime, Reuters came to the
US -- I've always preferred the coverage of our country by people based
elsewhere, so I've viewed the arrival of Reuters as a good thing.
Unfortunately, the CBC had their budgets cut so drastically that they
don't seem to be able to do stories from here any more.

Heck, I thought UPI was dead for some reason. Thanks for clarifying this.
No; there's this Kahuna who says, "They hate our freedom."

Eh... sorry Richard, I don't quite understand that.
Oh, wow, we've been over this so many times, John. I've got the dry
heaves.

I know what you mean.
I think someone established a while back that the Real
Alternative file set did, in fact, contain some sort of spyware. I'll
say, though, that I haven't caught the bastard phoning the mother ship.

Neither have I. At least Kerio's never said anything to me.
And I believe that Sygate would ring my chimes if this occurred. Sad to
say, we should all be on the lookout for a replacement for Sygate now
that it's gone to the enemy's camp. One little nasty about Sygate we've
not discussed is that you can hit the brick wall of the 20-rule limit. I
just maxed this out last week, so even before I heard about the Sygate
acquisition, I was thinking about replacing it. You see, my ISP
transmits to me from their "latency tester," and Sygate blocks this, not
having a rule to permit it. And I can't create the rule to allow it
because that would be rule #21 (gotcha).

Kerio works for me. I know I shouldn't be using ver. 2.1.5, but so far
I've been lucky I guess.
Actually, there are ways around this. I'll explain. At some point within
your system, Real converts to a straight audio signal -- I'm talking
about analog now. You see, this is the only way to get the music from
your computer into your speakers, headphones, what have you. Now (heh
heh) all one needs is to capture this ordinary _audio_ signal, and stash
it any which way you want (.wav, .mp3, OGG, you name it). I haven't
bothered because it's not often that I'll actually want to save what I
download. Now, I download the Real audio directly to cassette tape or
directly into my teentsy MP3 player. In the last case, the player
converts line-level audio directly to MP3 format. And it's just great
for speech.

Real sound is compromised (as is MP3). Like MP3, the degree of
compression is set by the party who encodes the signal. Therefore, some
of the audio can be horrendous, and some is pretty decent. You want bad?
Try downloading something from KPFK (the sound is at the edge of
screeching). You want better: try the BBC or "On The Media," from WNYC
(a wonderful, enjoyable show, by the way).

I've seen mentioned here recently a couple or so programs that can
capture real streams to digital form, and I have a hunch that this is
the way that they do it -- grab it from analog audio. Hell: why not. My
experience with the two methods that I use indicate that going digital
within the computer itself would be as good.

How's that?

Well, actually I was refering to streaming video media. That's another
story.
 
H

hummingbird

I don't know if you've kept up, but BBC pulled the plug on radio
transmission to North America around three years ago, leaving major
holes in our shortwave bands.

They've done that elsewhere, not just the US.
IIUC they've replaced SW with either satellite transmissions or by
doing deals with local radio stations and having eg 30 min FM slots.
Is that what happens now?

I used to listen to BBC-WS on SW in Brazil but reception was poor.
Nowadays they also have some classy FM slots on Brazilian channels.
Now, the only way for us to receive BBC
audio is over the Internet with Real technology (!). And, of course, if
one lives within range of a large city, one might be able to receive
certain BBC programs, with excellent fidelity, re-transmitted from a
local public radio station.

Argh you've answered my question above!
Shortwave used to be so cool. We had the Beeb, Radio Moscow (with their
slant), Voice of America (with their slant), Radio Nederland (super),
and the US fundamentalists, blasting program content from El Cerrito
California through a humongous transmitter in Quito, Ecuador. Short wave
used to be a lot of fun. Oh, I forgot the boring Chinese lessons from

I agree. There's something captivating about poor radio reception.
Years ago I used to listen to the offshore pirate radio pop stations
floating in the North Sea and somehow the songs always sounded
better than BBC Hi-Fi FM!
Of course the government closed them down.
 
R

Richard Steinfeld

John Corliss wrote:

You might notice that you rarely hear references to the
Eh... sorry Richard, I don't quite understand that.

King George the Dubbya...
Well, actually I was refering to streaming video media. That's another
story.

Oh.
I see. Didn't catch that part.
Y'know, I write real good. I don't read worth a damn...

Stay cool, John.

Richard
 
R

Richard Steinfeld

hummingbird said:
On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 19:12:06 -0700, Richard Steinfeld
<[email protected]>
mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...




They've done that elsewhere, not just the US.
IIUC they've replaced SW with either satellite transmissions or by
doing deals with local radio stations and having eg 30 min FM slots.
Is that what happens now?

I'm not sure. Here in the San Francisco area, we've got two public
stations (funded by a mix of corporate donations [sometimes with
strings], listener contributions, and a moderate amount of federal
money. We've never had anything funded like y'all in Europe. I think
we're in between you guys and the Canadians in funding.

As you know, the BBC produces a range of radio programs for export. I
haven't checked the schedules lately, but there's a small mix of
content. I recall a one-hour show made up of two half-hour segments.
It's hard for me to stay tuned to a BBC newscast because so much of it
is big-time sports, and I'm just not interested in that. I mean, that's
like US AM radio. There's a lot of continuous BBC on overnight here on
our two SF public stations. There is an old entertainment pair: My Word
and My Music.

There's a jointly-produced radio hour daily named "The World," made by
the BBC, the Cristian Science Monitor (Boston), and, I think, WBUR (one
of the two Boston public broadcasters).

Our Public TV carries only entertainment and a few features from the UK;
some from BBC, some privately produced.

I used to listen to BBC-WS on SW in Brazil but reception was poor.
Nowadays they also have some classy FM slots on Brazilian channels.




Argh you've answered my question above!




I agree. There's something captivating about poor radio reception.
Years ago I used to listen to the offshore pirate radio pop stations
floating in the North Sea and somehow the songs always sounded
better than BBC Hi-Fi FM!
Of course the government closed them down.

I think we feel that we're working to pull in; like, it's some sort of
witchcraft.

I have a nice old Hallicrafters shortwave receiver with five tubes
(valves) in it. I haven't listened to it in over 16 years. Time to sell it.

Richard
 
H

hummingbird

hummingbird said:
On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 19:12:06 -0700, Richard Steinfeld
<[email protected]>
mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...


They've done that elsewhere, not just the US.
IIUC they've replaced SW with either satellite transmissions or by
doing deals with local radio stations and having eg 30 min FM slots.
Is that what happens now?

I'm not sure. Here in the San Francisco area, we've got two public
stations (funded by a mix of corporate donations [sometimes with
strings], listener contributions, and a moderate amount of federal
money. We've never had anything funded like y'all in Europe. I think
we're in between you guys and the Canadians in funding.

I listen to BBC WS Radio (Europe edition) a lot in London on digital
terrestrial (on my PC actually) and find it much more informative and
entertaining than BBC Domestic ...it hasn't succumbed to political
pressure and tends to explain news issues more thoroughly and
honestly. I also imagine this is because foreigners wouldn't listen to
the tripe Domestic pours out for home consumption on BBC Radio 4.
As you know, the BBC produces a range of radio programs for export. I
haven't checked the schedules lately, but there's a small mix of
content. I recall a one-hour show made up of two half-hour segments.
It's hard for me to stay tuned to a BBC newscast because so much of it
is big-time sports, and I'm just not interested in that. I mean, that's
like US AM radio. There's a lot of continuous BBC on overnight here on
our two SF public stations. There is an old entertainment pair: My Word
and My Music.

BBC WS Radio Service has very different schedules for different parts
of the world. The only sports stuff in Europe is on Saturdays/Sundays.
Rest of the time it's more serious stuff to educate and inform!
There's a jointly-produced radio hour daily named "The World," made by
the BBC, the Cristian Science Monitor (Boston), and, I think, WBUR (one
of the two Boston public broadcasters).

Our Public TV carries only entertainment and a few features from the UK;
some from BBC, some privately produced.



I think we feel that we're working to pull in; like, it's some sort of
witchcraft.

I have a nice old Hallicrafters shortwave receiver with five tubes
(valves) in it. I haven't listened to it in over 16 years. Time to sell it.

I still have my kid crystal set somewhere which my father made for
me...amazing!
 

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