Indian language fonts to be included as default fonts in windows

[Bob Buckland ?:-\)]

Hi Ashok,

Can you provide the link to the specific document you're referring to in your post? The Transliteration article on your blog at
http://kothareashok.blog.co.in/transliteration/
basically says 'coming soon'.

==============
Friends, I am resuming the dialogue after about seven months. Somebody told
me that transliteration is the answer to the problem of Indian language
inclusion as default font. I have studied the suggestion and come with reply.
that reply is in details and so I have put it on my blog. Please visit my
blog to read it. It is a research paper too lengthy for this box. URL of my
blog
http://kothareashok.blog.co.in
and you may reply to it on this site as well as on the comment box. >>
--

Bob Buckland ?
MS Office System Products MVP

*Courtesy is not expensive and can pay big dividends*

 

[Ashok Kothare]

I am very sorry that the page on my blog was written next day due to internet
problem at my end. Now you can read my article on the page Transliteration
and please write back for your comments here and also if possible on the
comment box of the blog. That page shall remain on the blog for some time
now, for all interested observers. Friend Grammtin, please note.

 

[grammatim]

Well, to get the link, I had to go to Bob Buckland's message.

The "essay" contains a great deal of blather. I gather "orkut" is an
Indian ISP?

You seem to have two points. (1) Transliteration is not necessary.

(2) Windows cannot properly handle Indian scripts.

(1) is a matter of opinion and is correct in some circumstances,
incorrect in others.

(2), as I and others told you more than half a year ago, is simply
incorrect. Every version of Windows since I-don't-know-when has
provided full support for typing in the 11 standard scripts of India
(roman, Nagari, Gujarati, Gurmukhi, Bengali, Oriya, Kannada, Telugu,
Tamil, Malayalam, Urdu), with a dedicated keyboard for each. All of
them have been included in Unicode since Version 1.0 nearly 20 years
ago.

 

[Ashok Kothare]

Dear Grammatim, you are very sure that everything has been done to make
windows suitable to write in Indian languages. I am afraid you are not
correct. Another point you have put is that unicode has been finalized for
Indian languages is also not correct. If you see unicodes used by fonts such
as 'mangal' you will see that they are not placed on the unicodes
recommended for Indian languages but they are put on other nondescript
unicode places. If windows do that how that can be justified? I want
Microsoft to be a perfect instrument to get proper unicodes to be used for
these languages. I will add one more page to my blog soon to show you the
difference in what unicodes are used by microsoft Indian fonts and what are
the actuall unicodes offered by the unicode. I want to know why microsoft is
doing this? Is it justified to put fonts of a langauge on wrong unicodes? My
intentions are that let us do something that is, in given times, helpful to
users in India. Please do not misunderstand me. I want to know what Bob has
to say. Please visit my blog after 8 days to avoid any misunderstanding. I
have internet server problem here and that makes it difficult to do posting
in time sorry for that. Remember, we Indians wish to use english version of
windows and want to write our messages in Indian languages since that is most
convenient at this time. We often toggle between both languages and for that
english version is most suitable. with regards.

 

[grammatim]

Dear Grammatim, you are very sure that everything has been done to make
windows suitable to write in Indian languages.

"Everything"? I have no idea what "everything" might be. You can type
in the 11 standard Indian scripts without adding anything at all to
Windows out-of-the-box. Conjuncts are formed, and matras are placed,
automatically as you type the sounds of the letters in the order they
are spoken -- you don't even need to type <i> before the consonant, or
<o> both before and after (Bengali). Once you have selected the (or a)
keyboard for your language, you begin to get characters in that
script, in whatever the system's default might be. For some it's Arial
Unicode, for some it's Sylfaen, for some (Urdu, Sindhi), it's Times
New Roman.

I am afraid you are not
correct. Another point you have put is that unicode has been finalized for
Indian languages is also not correct. If you see unicodes used by fonts such
as 'mangal'  you will see that they are not placed on the unicodes
recommended for Indian languages but they are put on other nondescript
unicode places.

It is hardly Unicode's fault that some font designers have failed to
adhere to Unicode standards. I have not heard of "mangal"; for what
script is it a font?

If windows do that how that can be justified? I want

"Windows" do not "do that." Font designers do that. Maybe "mangal" is
20 years old and was made before computers could handle more than 128
or 256 characters.

Microsoft to be a perfect instrument to get proper unicodes to be used for
these languages. I will add one more page to my blog soon to show you the
difference in what unicodes are used by microsoft Indian fonts and what are
the actuall unicodes offered by the unicode. I want to know why microsoftis
doing this? Is it justified to put fonts of a langauge on wrong unicodes?My

Certainly not.

intentions are that let us do something that is, in given times, helpful to
users in India. Please do not misunderstand me. I want to know what Bob has
to say. Please visit my blog after 8 days to avoid any misunderstanding. I

Post the link here next week.

have internet server problem here and that makes it difficult to do posting
in time sorry for that. Remember, we Indians wish to use english version of
windows and want to write our messages in Indian languages since that is most
convenient at this time. We often toggle between both languages and for that
english version is most suitable. with regards.

I of course use English version of Windows, and I have no trouble
typing in any of the Indian languages. I can toggle between English
and any of the languages either by choosing them from the Language
Bar, or by pressing LeftAlt+Shift, or by assigning a specific shortcut
to each keyboard (though because I use many, many different scripts in
my work, I have different selections of keyboards installed at
different times, so I don't bother with specific shortcuts except for
getting back to English.)

 

[Ashok Kothare]

As I had said in my last mail I have loaded a page on my blog. the page is
"Grammatim". Please log on the blog and read the page. Also ask other
interested in the topic to read it. My blog,
http://kothareashok.blog.co.in
Ashok Kothare

 

[grammatim]

It has not been "eight days" since your last posting.

I have read your blog page called "Grammatim" and I have no idea what
you are talking about.

Mangal font is on my computer -- installed with Vista last month;
until I get my old hard drive back, I cannot know whether some recent
earlier version of Mangal did not comply with Unicode -- I opened it
with BabelMap and found that it contains every Unicode-specified
character in its proper place. (The glyph variants involved in
constructing conjuncts and adding matras are handled behind the
scenes, by the Devanagari IME.)

It is possible that you have a very, very, very old version of Mangal,
if you do not have the 110 Mangal characters in their proper places.

 

[Ashok Kothare]

Thanks for the reply. I want others in the discussion group to say what they
want to say. Your argument does not justify violation of the unicode by
Microsoft. Whether latest or very old the violation has been done. That is
the point. I wish some person from the Microsoft connected with this font
work come up and reply. May be you can arrange for it. May be, dear
Grammatim, you are not competent to answer my query.

 

[grammatim]

No one from Microsoft reads this newsgroup.

If the ancient font you insist on continuing to use was made before
Unicode was established, you have no right to claim that it does not
match Unicode.

Just update your computer and download the free fonts.

 

[Ashok Kothare]

How do you know that no one from Microsoft reads this newsgroup? If so why
keep it? I have found that Google research reads my comments that means
Microsoft definetly knows what is going on in this group. Any way, your
advice is perfect but that does not solve the problem. I have put 'My stand'
on the page "Grammatim" on my blog. May be it will clear the point. The font
I am talking about is copyright 2001. Is it ancient? Unicode were all well
set by that time.

 

[Tony Jollans]

Firstly, let me confirm that no-one from Microsoft reads this newsgroup.
There may be individual Microsoft employees who read it on their own time
(although I doubt it), but it is not officially monitored by Microsoft. I
don't know about Google Research but one thing they are not, is connected to
Microsoft.

Secondly, this seems to be a discussion going nowhere. What grammatim says
makes sense, what you, Ashok, say does not make sense to me, although I do
accept that that may be due, in part, to my lack of knowledge of Indian
scripts.

Unicode is a standard supported by all modern software, in so much as
special support is needed, but all that unicode really is is a cross
reference of code points to named characters. Individual fonts can use
whatever glyphs they like to depict the characters at particular code
points.

Mangal, as installed on my machine, has 110 glyphs at code points in the
Devanagari range (0900 to 097F) and I have no reason to think there is
anything wrong with them. Are you saying that your version of the font does
not have these glyphs? Or that there is something wrong with them? Or are
you saying that you have problems entering them from the keyboard? Or what?

 

[grammatim]

Once again, you demanded that I read your blog without providing a
link to it.

After scrolling back many messages to find the link, I discovered that
in the very first sentence of the new addition, you lied about what I
said. This is how it starts:

***
My stand

Grammatim suggests that new version of mangal has 127 characters and
they are in the right places given for Devnagari script. If this is
so, I mean, new version of mangal has 127 characters then that shows
that Microsoft is making one more blunder. How, I shall explain. Font
mangal I have is, according to Grammatim, very old font, it has 586
characters and new version has only 127 characters. What happened to
all other characters?
***

If you will look at the very message you are responding to, you will
see that I said that Mangal contains exactly the 110 characters
specified by Unicode.

Why should I read any essay that so blatantly lies in its opening
words? But I go on a few more words and see that you refer to "586
characters." Maybe you are somehow looking at the OpenType resources
that _underlie_ the 110 characters. The conjunct aksharas are not
individually typed when typing in Nagari; they are automatically
called by the computer. Please learn something about how to use your
computer before continuing to waste our time.

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

Give up, grammatim. It's a lost cause. Ashok doesn't understand English well
enough to pursue this argument logically.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Once again, you demanded that I read your blog without providing a
link to it.

After scrolling back many messages to find the link, I discovered that
in the very first sentence of the new addition, you lied about what I
said. This is how it starts:

***
My stand

Grammatim suggests that new version of mangal has 127 characters and
they are in the right places given for Devnagari script. If this is
so, I mean, new version of mangal has 127 characters then that shows
that Microsoft is making one more blunder. How, I shall explain. Font
mangal I have is, according to Grammatim, very old font, it has 586
characters and new version has only 127 characters. What happened to
all other characters?
***

If you will look at the very message you are responding to, you will
see that I said that Mangal contains exactly the 110 characters
specified by Unicode.

Why should I read any essay that so blatantly lies in its opening
words? But I go on a few more words and see that you refer to "586
characters." Maybe you are somehow looking at the OpenType resources
that _underlie_ the 110 characters. The conjunct aksharas are not
individually typed when typing in Nagari; they are automatically
called by the computer. Please learn something about how to use your
computer before continuing to waste our time.

 

[Ashok Kothare]

I want to reply in one place and I request Tony and Grammatim to read it from
here. I admit that I wrote 127 and that was a typographic mistake however, it
does not rule out the argument. Secondly, my english is Indian and you
americans may find it different but that is always the case, when Japanese
write english you americans laugh it away.Thirdly, mangal font I have is
original microsoft font file copyright 2001. If any one of you is wanting to
see it please, send your email ID on my email which is available on my blog.
I shall send the font file to you. Tony claims that no body reads from
microsoft then, why they keep this discussion group? Just close it in that
case. But I know you are all microsoft people and microsoft reads everything
through you people. I have circumstantial evidence for that. My complain is
no body from you or any other bothered to say anything about microsoft giving
same name for two different fonts? Why? Are you afraid to face truth? Finally
let me tell you all, my friends, that the blog is being read by people all
over the world and many, interested in the topic, are reading the discussion
on the blog on page "Grammatim". They are sending their comments to me. I am
collecting them all and then publish them in the coming posts, exact post
date for that I cannot tell now. Those comments will be published on page
"Unicode". I invite you all to visit the blog and know what they say. My blog
link is,
http://kothareashok.blog.co.in
Suzanne S. Barnhill, please pass it to my friend, Grammatim.
with regards,
Ashok.
I want to reply in one place and I request Tony and Grammatim to read it
from here. I admit that I wrote 127 and that was a typographic mistake
however, it does not rule out the argument. Secondly, my english is Indian
and you americans may find it different but that is always the case, when
Japanese write english you americans laugh it away.Thirdly, mangal font I
have is original microsoft font file copyright 2001. If any one of you is
wanting to see it please, send your email ID on my email which is available
on my blog. I shall send the font file to you. Tony claims that no body reads
from microsoft then, why they keep this discussion group? Just close it in
that case. But I know you are all microsoft people and microsoft reads
everything through you people. I have circumstantial evidence for that. My
complain is no body from you or any other bothered to say anything about
microsoft giving same name for two different fonts? Why? Are you afraid to
face truth? Finally let me tell you all, my friends, that the blog is being
read by people all over the world and many, interested in the topic, are
reading the discussion on the blog on page "Grammatim". They are sending
their comments to me. I am collecting them all and then publish them in the
coming posts, exact post date for that I cannot tell now. Those comments will
be published on page "Unicode". I invite you all to visit the blog and know
what they say. My blog link is,
http://kothareashok.blog.co.in
Suzanne S. Barnhill, please pass it to my friend, Grammatim.
with regards,
Ashok.

 

[Tony Jollans]

I admit that I wrote 127 and that was a typographic mistake however, it

does not rule out the argument.

What is the argument? What does not work as expected?

Tony claims that no body reads from
microsoft then, why they keep this discussion group? Just close it in that
case. But I know you are all microsoft people ...

The discussion group is provided by Microsoft for users to interact with
each other. It is not a communication channel with Microsoft. And I can
assure you that neither I, nor grammatim, nor Suzanne are Microsoft people,
and none of us will pass anything on to Microsoft about this.

My complain is
no body from you or any other bothered to say anything about microsoft
giving
same name for two different fonts?

This was merely suggested as a possible reason for the problem you are
experiencing. It seems as though this is not, in fact, the case. It is,
however, unclear as to what the problem actually is?