IE is far the best browser

  • Thread starter Thread starter X_User
  • Start date Start date
through the MS articles, you would see where Microsoft provides you
everything you want to know about flaws in IE.
(http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/713878)

I wonder how many have been patched?

Well, from what I can see, when using FireFox, I don't have to worry
about it. Since I've only found two sites that require IE, banking and
other financial sites, I have gotten the users use to running FireFox as
the main browser. They like it and rarely ever use IE any more.

The nice thing about FireFox is that I have not had one users system
infected with Sypware since they started using it. We have a number of
what I call one-shot customers - people who call us because our clients
do business with them and give them our number, they are residential
type users. After cleaning their systems, installing FireFox and
ThunderBird, and also adding Spybot Search and Destroy 1.3 and AdAware
1.3, and setting program access defaults so that FireFox is the default
(and not disabling IE), we've not had one of these types infected again
- and we follow up with everyone at 30/90/180 days.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a strong MS supporter, it's made me a TON of
money and I install/design many business networks around MS 2000/2003
and XP and even Exchange/MS SQL. When it comes to desktop security I'll
stick with FireFox and Thunderbird (unless they have Exchange) and then
I use Outlook 2003 and install Symantec Corp. 9.0 with Exchange
filtering and also use Symantec Mail Security 4.5 and filter everything
- in addition to the firewall blocking attachments by type and invalid
headers.
 
Leythos said:
If you were posting a proper reply, where you quoted the name of the
poster you were replying to, we might know who you want to respond.
It is obvious, isn't it:

Job Dude wants to address God and the World - Eleiseon...
 
Bruce said:
Just how, exactly, did Microsoft prevent the developers of Firefox
from making their product support ActiveX?

By not conforming to WC3 standards (of which ActiveX is not part of).
 
James said:
This is just plain silly. It may be fine for the EXPERIENCED user to
examine each and every update and determine if it is appropriate but the
average user and the novice would have a very difficult if not
impossible time determining whether or not to allow the update or deny
it. I completely agree with Leythos that automatic updating is the way
to go for most users. And I must say that I have yet to find anyone
whose box was messed up because of applying automatic updates.

On the contrary, your position is "silly," as well as grossly
irresponsible. Let me explain:


I'm confident that Microsoft does its level best, consonant with the
regard for cost effectiveness that any successful business must keep in
mind, to ensure that the patches distributed via Windows Update and the
Automatic Update mechanism are safe and effective. However, there is no
humanly possible way for Microsoft to test all these patches under every
conceivable combination of hardware, other patches, device drivers, and
applications that exist in the "wild." There is nearly an infinite
number of diifferent possibilities. The sad truth of the matter, is
that, despite Microsoft's best efforts, the installation of some of
these patches will almost invariably results in less secure, unusable,
or sometimes unbootable computers. People who negligently allow WinXP
to automatically update itself will have no idea why their computer is
suddenly malfunctioning. They have no idea that any update, much less
which specific one(s), has bee installed. But the person who manually
installs an update, and then sees the resulting problem has a lock on
the whole "cause and effect" concept. Recovery is much simple when the
cause of the problem is known. (And the user may be completely
"technically inexperienced;" he really doesn't need to perfectly
understand what a patch is doing, he just needs to know which one he
installed immediately prior to the onset of his problem. This is
child's play.)

Additionally, from an individualistic (OK, I'm American, and mostly
proud of it.) point-of-view, I find it nearly impossible to understand
how anyone could possibly be comfortable turning over control of their
own property and personal information to a corporate or government
entity. Not that I'm accusing Microsoft of spying, but the potential is
there. Should the Department of Homeland Security (a.k.a. the American
gestapo) suddenly decide that computer users might somehow,
inadvertantly support terrorism, pressure might be put upon software
manufacturers to provide lists of registered users, the software they
use, and how it's used. Rather like how they're currently trying to get
libraries to monitor our reading habits. Paranoia aside (VBG), what
ever happened to the principle of self-reliance?

Finally, people who are too lazy to learn how to safely use their own
computers shouldn't have computers (or at least shouldn't be allowed to
connect to the Internet), no more than untrained and unlicensed drivers
should be allowed to operate motor vehicles on the highways. They are a
danger to themselves and others. Such "Obliviots" make the Internet all
that much more dangerous for the rest of us, because they refuse to
learn how to take the most basic of security precaustions, and help
spread malware hither and yon.



--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:



You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having
both at once. - RAH
 
Bruce Chambers said:
Not really anyhing to do with IE. Why do you give your children free
rein to install anything they like? Why do you have your security
configuration set so low that "drive-by" installations can happen?
Don't blame Microsoft because they trusted you to learn how to manage
your own computer and your own children.

Not all teenagers are reined in as easily as one would like. Maybe
you're a better parent than I am. Maybe I live in a fantasy land, but
I'd like simple menus for selecting degrees of security that the
average parent can understand. Not all are as savvy as you are. Many
parents out there are fixing problems that their children bring to
their computers. I hear it frequently. It's time consuming.

It's fine to defend MS and I like a lot of their programs. But many
defended early operating systems like Win98 and 95 saying they are
very well built, very stable, and I was just a dummy, because I got
lots of crashes and freezes. That it was my ignorance and misguided
use of the computer. But I don't think they were all that stable, and
many agree. Defenders of MS liked to blame it all on me though.

Maybe in the future we'll look back on these days of fear of surfing
and opening email attachments, with real concerns about ruining our
computers and we'll say IE wasn't really designed too well. Maybe
it's all your perspective.

I'd like to here more about partitioning and goback type programs.
Maybe I'll buy Norton Ghost of Roxio Goback. What is best to correct
problems that seem too complex for someone like me to fix?
 
I totally agree with you B.C.

Bruce Chambers said:
On the contrary, your position is "silly," as well as grossly
irresponsible. Let me explain:


I'm confident that Microsoft does its level best, consonant with the
regard for cost effectiveness that any successful business must keep in
mind, to ensure that the patches distributed via Windows Update and the
Automatic Update mechanism are safe and effective. However, there is no
humanly possible way for Microsoft to test all these patches under every
conceivable combination of hardware, other patches, device drivers, and
applications that exist in the "wild." There is nearly an infinite number
of diifferent possibilities. The sad truth of the matter, is that,
despite Microsoft's best efforts, the installation of some of these
patches will almost invariably results in less secure, unusable, or
sometimes unbootable computers. People who negligently allow WinXP to
automatically update itself will have no idea why their computer is
suddenly malfunctioning. They have no idea that any update, much less
which specific one(s), has bee installed. But the person who manually
installs an update, and then sees the resulting problem has a lock on the
whole "cause and effect" concept. Recovery is much simple when the cause
of the problem is known. (And the user may be completely "technically
inexperienced;" he really doesn't need to perfectly understand what a
patch is doing, he just needs to know which one he installed immediately
prior to the onset of his problem. This is child's play.)

Additionally, from an individualistic (OK, I'm American, and mostly proud
of it.) point-of-view, I find it nearly impossible to understand how
anyone could possibly be comfortable turning over control of their own
property and personal information to a corporate or government entity.
Not that I'm accusing Microsoft of spying, but the potential is there.
Should the Department of Homeland Security (a.k.a. the American gestapo)
suddenly decide that computer users might somehow, inadvertantly support
terrorism, pressure might be put upon software manufacturers to provide
lists of registered users, the software they use, and how it's used.
Rather like how they're currently trying to get libraries to monitor our
reading habits. Paranoia aside (VBG), what ever happened to the principle
of self-reliance?

Finally, people who are too lazy to learn how to safely use their own
computers shouldn't have computers (or at least shouldn't be allowed to
connect to the Internet), no more than untrained and unlicensed drivers
should be allowed to operate motor vehicles on the highways. They are a
danger to themselves and others. Such "Obliviots" make the Internet all
that much more dangerous for the rest of us, because they refuse to learn
how to take the most basic of security precaustions, and help spread
malware hither and yon.



--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:



You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having
both at once. - RAH
 
Additionally, from an individualistic (OK, I'm American, and mostly
proud of it.) point-of-view, I find it nearly impossible to understand
how anyone could possibly be comfortable turning over control of their
own property and personal information to a corporate or government
entity. Not that I'm accusing Microsoft of spying, but the potential is
there. Should the Department of Homeland Security (a.k.a. the American
gestapo) suddenly decide that computer users might somehow,
inadvertantly support terrorism, pressure might be put upon software
manufacturers to provide lists of registered users, the software they
use, and how it's used. Rather like how they're currently trying to get
libraries to monitor our reading habits. Paranoia aside (VBG), what
ever happened to the principle of self-reliance?

I take exception to this. I'm American, very much in support of our
country and ideals as a nation, and I'm also x-Navy. I have worked with
law-enforcement, obey laws, own weapons, and have no problems with
opening my home/spaces to search at request - even without a warrant. If
the department of HS or any other branch needs to search your house
because they suspect that you are doing something wrong, go with the
flow, let them, unless you have something to hide.

As for self reliance, there is no such thing for the ignorant zillions
that bought computers and treat them like VCR's - most of the people
don't have any idea what they are using, most don't want to know, and if
it had a clock on the front of the case it would be blinking 12:00 all
the time.

While you can be happy with watching every update, I'm sure that you
don't have a clue as to what each update is doing to your machine, don't
have any idea what's really in each update, and not much else about the
updates that you hand-pick to install - other than the partial
description on the site.

For the vast majority of home and SOHO users, automatic updates are
painless, simple, work all the time, and break nothing. As I mentioned
before, in several years, with MANY systems across the country, we've
not had one auto-updated system crash/fault due to a MS Update, not even
SP2 caused a system crash/fault.

When you can't count on people to finish the installation of their AV
products, can't count on them to understand the need for them, can't
count on them to even try and understand their computers, if you can
enable Auto-Updates it's at least a chance that they'll get some help
(even though they don't know it).
 
Bruce said:
On the contrary, your position is "silly," as well as grossly
irresponsible. Let me explain:


I'm confident that Microsoft does its level best, consonant with the
regard for cost effectiveness that any successful business must keep in
mind, to ensure that the patches distributed via Windows Update and the
Automatic Update mechanism are safe and effective. However, there is no
humanly possible way for Microsoft to test all these patches under every
conceivable combination of hardware, other patches, device drivers, and
applications that exist in the "wild." There is nearly an infinite
number of diifferent possibilities. The sad truth of the matter, is
that, despite Microsoft's best efforts, the installation of some of
these patches will almost invariably results in less secure, unusable,
or sometimes unbootable computers. People who negligently allow WinXP
to automatically update itself will have no idea why their computer is
suddenly malfunctioning. They have no idea that any update, much less
which specific one(s), has bee installed. But the person who manually
installs an update, and then sees the resulting problem has a lock on
the whole "cause and effect" concept. Recovery is much simple when the
cause of the problem is known. (And the user may be completely
"technically inexperienced;" he really doesn't need to perfectly
understand what a patch is doing, he just needs to know which one he
installed immediately prior to the onset of his problem. This is
child's play.)

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ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
 
Hi ... I think you are missing the point as to what Bruce was suggesting ,
If you allow auto update to work ok, and lets say by chance microsoft added
a program unto your computer because of auto update without you being aware
of it ok , Now sometime these certain programs may cause a problem with your
computer and you wouldn't know as to what cause it because of auto update
added a program onto your computer , So then you would be going nuts trying
to figure out what casue the problem ... Now if you didn't have auto update
set up and you happen to scan for updates from microsoft site , You notice
there is a update to be added ... You decide to download this program and
afterward you reboot your computer , Notice that there is a problem with
your computer , Well first thing that would come to mind is the program that
you just downloaded from microsoft update site , So the only logical thing
to do is uninstall the program and see whether if that would correct the
problem , In most cases it does .... Now he isn't suggestion to examine each
and every updates, only the ones that afterward downloading from microsoft
site causes a problem .. You will notice a problem if you happen to recieve
one that doesn't work well with your computer once you reboot your
computer.... So its best not to have auto update set up but to just visit
microsoft update site once a week which is what I always do , Its safer ...
 
Hi ... I think you are missing the point as to what Bruce was suggesting ,
If you allow auto update to work ok, and lets say by chance microsoft added
a program unto your computer because of auto update without you being aware
of it ok , Now sometime these certain programs may cause a problem with your
computer and you wouldn't know as to what cause it because of auto update
added a program onto your computer , So then you would be going nuts trying
to figure out what casue the problem ... Now if you didn't have auto update
set up and you happen to scan for updates from microsoft site , You notice
there is a update to be added ...

That's the fundamental flaw - even when people notice the little nagging
update icon they still don't do it.

As I've said many times, even with more than 1000 machines running with
Auto-Updated enabled, it's not caused our clients any problems (because
of a service pack). As for not being aware of updates, it only takes a
couple seconds to see what was installed.

I would rather err on the side of getting updates installed than not
having them installed - and just in case you didn't know, SP2 will not
auto-install itself, so that should put your worries aside a little.
 
Are you called X_User, becuase you use a *nix system with the X Window System
in place? Seems an odd name on a M$ forum...
 
Bruce said:
On the contrary, your position is "silly," as well as grossly
irresponsible. Let me explain:


I'm confident that Microsoft does its level best, consonant with the
regard for cost effectiveness that any successful business must keep in
mind, to ensure that the patches distributed via Windows Update and the
Automatic Update mechanism are safe and effective. However, there is no
humanly possible way for Microsoft to test all these patches under every
conceivable combination of hardware, other patches, device drivers, and
applications that exist in the "wild." There is nearly an infinite
number of diifferent possibilities. The sad truth of the matter, is
that, despite Microsoft's best efforts, the installation of some of
these patches will almost invariably results in less secure, unusable,
or sometimes unbootable computers. People who negligently allow WinXP
to automatically update itself will have no idea why their computer is
suddenly malfunctioning. They have no idea that any update, much less
which specific one(s), has bee installed. But the person who manually
installs an update, and then sees the resulting problem has a lock on
the whole "cause and effect" concept. Recovery is much simple when the
cause of the problem is known. (And the user may be completely
"technically inexperienced;" he really doesn't need to perfectly
understand what a patch is doing, he just needs to know which one he
installed immediately prior to the onset of his problem. This is
child's play.)

Additionally, from an individualistic (OK, I'm American, and mostly
proud of it.) point-of-view, I find it nearly impossible to understand
how anyone could possibly be comfortable turning over control of their
own property and personal information to a corporate or government
entity. Not that I'm accusing Microsoft of spying, but the potential is
there. Should the Department of Homeland Security (a.k.a. the American
gestapo) suddenly decide that computer users might somehow,
inadvertantly support terrorism, pressure might be put upon software
manufacturers to provide lists of registered users, the software they
use, and how it's used. Rather like how they're currently trying to get
libraries to monitor our reading habits. Paranoia aside (VBG), what
ever happened to the principle of self-reliance?

Finally, people who are too lazy to learn how to safely use their
own computers shouldn't have computers (or at least shouldn't be allowed
to connect to the Internet), no more than untrained and unlicensed
drivers should be allowed to operate motor vehicles on the highways.
They are a danger to themselves and others. Such "Obliviots" make the
Internet all that much more dangerous for the rest of us, because they
refuse to learn how to take the most basic of security precaustions, and
help spread malware hither and yon.
Bruce, I think you did an excellent job at summarizing the situation.
 
John said:
Bruce, I think you did an excellent job at summarizing the situation.

Thank you for the kind words.

--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:



You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having
both at once. - RAH
 
hi boys
i can't speak about opera but firefox is in a fact really nice.. yes, IE
starts faster but once firefox is started (3 sec on my machine) it just flies
and never stops. tabs are so helpful because you don't get stuck with 10
windows you have to fight with and pages load in the background waiting for
you when you finish your current read. after 15 minutes of usage this alone
saves me those three seconds from the start. also,
new tabs open in a split sec. with it's sensible defaults firefox was a
breeze to setup, and can be as lean a browser as you want it to be. after
adding a few usual plugins and a few nice extensions it becomes beyond
comfortable and powerful. by default there are no popups, and with Adblock
extension you can make ads disappear from sites you visit regularly. plus I
control my music-player with tiny embedded controls and have one more window
less to hassle with.
so.. if you just need a browser for a casual 15 min session over one site IE
might be the choice.. but if you're like me and like to search a lot,
crossreference, do little "offroad trips" and come back to where you left off
or would generally call yourself a web poweruser than IE is just a laugh and
you should try firefox. these two browsers are simply not in the same
category.

foxy lady
(p.s. please remember this is not a flame. it is my opinion.)
 
=?Utf-8?B?Zm94eSBsYWR5?= rambled on in microsoft.public.windowsxp.general:
hi boys
i can't speak about opera but firefox is in a fact really nice.. yes, IE
starts faster but once firefox is started (3 sec on my machine) it just flies
and never stops. tabs are so helpful because you don't get stuck with 10
windows you have to fight with and pages load in the background waiting for
you when you finish your current read. after 15 minutes of usage this alone
saves me those three seconds from the start. also,
new tabs open in a split sec. with it's sensible defaults firefox was a
breeze to setup, and can be as lean a browser as you want it to be. after
adding a few usual plugins and a few nice extensions it becomes beyond
comfortable and powerful. by default there are no popups, and with Adblock
extension you can make ads disappear from sites you visit regularly. plus I
control my music-player with tiny embedded controls and have one more window
less to hassle with.
so.. if you just need a browser for a casual 15 min session over one site IE
might be the choice.. but if you're like me and like to search a lot,
crossreference, do little "offroad trips" and come back to where you left off
or would generally call yourself a web poweruser than IE is just a laugh and
you should try firefox. these two browsers are simply not in the same
category.

foxy lady
(p.s. please remember this is not a flame. it is my opinion.)

You're using the word flame in the wrong context.
 
Hello;

There is a flaw in Firefox, because it disabled the shift key on your
keyboard. Multum in parvo.


Adios
--------------------------
 

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