How to find reliable offshore (India) programming shop? (this is not aspam)

[Craig]

Well, we were just joking about this yesterday and wrote this stored proc...
I'll bet someone here finds this entertaining:

CREATE PROC REPLACE_CODER

@USERName varchar(50)

AS

DECLARE @ForeignDeveloper int

SELECT TOP 1 @ForeignDeveloper=ForeignDevelopers.ID FROM ForeignDevelopers

WHERE English IS NULL

ORDER BY LEN(ForeignDevelopers.LName) DESC,
fPronouncability(ForeignDevelopers.Fname) ASC,

UPDATE Employees SET Employee=@ForeignDeveloper, Salary=Salary/4 WHERE
Employee=@username

GO

I personally refuse to put up with 2nd rate support on any products because
of outsourcing. If I can't understand the person on the phone when I call
for support, the product goes back to the store - simple. Since YOU'RE
going to be the one on the phone with them, I sure hope you get what you
deserve. You think you have communication problems with US contractors now?
....laugh...

 

[Craig]

Well, you have to expect when asking an off-topic question, that you'll get
off-topic responses

 

[beagle]

You can't stop a train. Outsourcing is coming. Jump in, or get out the way.
Economics will eventually win. The price is unbeatable, there are a few
kinks to be worked out here and there which eventually will be worked out.
But that's what they are, kinks not showstoppers.

I must respectfully disagree. It's not nearly so black and white.

In America, during the 90's, the demand for software developers was
skyrocketing. Lots of unqualified (translation: bad) programmers got
into the field for the money.

Fast forward to the 2000's. The same thing is happening in India that
happened in America in the 90's, except 10x worse. The quality of
talent that Indian universities are pumping out is very low, because
they're trying to pump out too many bodies too quickly to meet demand.

Hopefully, must people are aware that 90% of software development is
maintenance. Maintaining a poorly constructed system is very expensive.
Doing a poor job maintaining a well written system turns it into a poor
system. The majority of these outsourced projects will generate a low
quality project that is cheap up front but will cost big bucks during
the much longer and more expensive maintenance cycle that most software
projects go through.

There is a dirty little secret at American companies these days, and
that dirty little secret is failed outsourcing efforts. Outsourcing
projects are not nearly as successful as they seem, because those
lemming-like executives who jump on the outsourcing bandwagon aren't
exactly motivated to admit to the world when their outsourcing scheme
failed.

When you outsource, there are a lot of hidden expenses, too. The
"six Indians for one American" often quoted is completely misleading.

Eventually, the price of developing software will fall out of the sky and so
will programmer salaries. It's happening already. It's about competition,
and we aren't reacting to competition nicely by name calling.

The more likely long-term outcome is that, eventually, India will have
a large base of good programmers, instead of the large base of bad
programmers, and small base of good programmers, it has now.

And eventually, Indian companies will start sprouting up that compete
against the very American companies that essentially trained them on
the job in the first place. Except the Indian companies can benefit
from lower wages from the very top to the very bottom, so the American
companies will be at a competitive disadvantage.

Basically, what we are seeing is, American companies giving themselves
a short-term advantage, in exchange for guaranteed long-term extinction.
Then again, this is no surprise; American executives are remarkably
short-sighted. You would be too, if you were so grossly overpaid as
they are. They don't NEED to worry beyond a handful of years. That's
why they can rarely see more than 4 quarters out. They don't keep their
stock options that long anyway.

Most IT companies will employ a small staff of developers for maintenance,
the main project will be outsourced. I've seen the future. Time to get into
consulting.

It's time to get into "project recovery". There will be an obscene
amount of failed outsourced projects that'll need to be fixed.

 

[William Ryan eMVP]

I wouldn't hold my breath...

In microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.csharp Bret Pehrson

So rather than fix the REAL problem (your lack of ability to identify
competent talent), you'll just ship the work overseas?

Idiot.

Due to the demand for software developers in India, every Tom, Dick,
and Harry is getting into it for the money. Indian universities are
graduating totally unqualified people to meet demand.

Software development is HARD. I'll laugh my ass off when all these
idiot executives who are outsourcing and offshoring end up with a crap
product whose maintenance costs skyrocket into the heavens because the
code is so poorly constructed.

 

[Bret Pehrson]

You are a classic troll. Go away, and when you have something productive to
offer, let me hear it.

Try re-reading my posts on the subject -- I'm looking for comments and
suggestions regarding offshore programming. I didn't say I was shipping the
work overseas. It sounds like your comments about me apply more to you.

 

[Bret Pehrson]

Beagle -- come on, get with the program. I haven't made any sweeping
generalizations, merely stated MY experiences w/ the subject.

I'm not trying to bolster my case, as you put it. Merely asking for comments
on the subject of offshore programming. Some of your other responses have been
helpful, although I don't know if they are substantiated.

You really need to reevaluate your 'idiot' position. I'm not attacking you,
contract programmers, executives, indians, or anything else for that matter --
SIMPLY ASKING FOR COMMENTS ON THE SUBJECT.

 

[Martin Maat]

In microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.csharp Alvin Bruney [MVP] <vapor at

There is a dirty little secret at American companies these days, and
that dirty little secret is failed outsourcing efforts. Outsourcing
projects are not nearly as successful as they seem, because those
lemming-like executives who jump on the outsourcing bandwagon aren't
exactly motivated to admit to the world when their outsourcing scheme
failed.

I know an even darker little secret: software projects in general are
typically not very successful, regardless whether any of it was outsourced
or not.

American executives are remarkably short-sighted.
You would be too, if you were so grossly overpaid
as they are. They don't NEED to worry beyond a
handful of years. That's why they can rarely see more
than 4 quarters out. They don't keep their stock
options that long anyway.

No that's not it. The short sightedness is usually a result of project
oriented organization. The project manager is responsible for the project,
not the product. The project manager gets his orders and mandate from the
men upstairs so the project will be more important than the product.
Outsourcing is just another sign that project organisations are hip.
Projects are great from a financial point of view, they make it easy to
measure what goes in and what goes out. That is what the men upstairs want
to know because they are no longer the owners, they have to write that
speech to the shareholders that will be waiting to hear about the successes
of the latest quarter.

This type of business organization, that has grown in importance over the
last couple of decades, doesn't mix very well with the software development
processes that typically is hard to predict because most of the work will be
new to most of the participants. It is never like "laying bricks the way you
have been laying bricks for years", it is not predictable. Yet the service
provider will have to promise he will deliver by this date or he will not
get the business.

Companies can no longer affort to organize themselves for long term goals
because "just wait and see, we will do our best" is no longer accepted by
investors. They want it all and they want it now and this results in either
(if all goes well) indeed getting it all or (if a few setbacks are
encountered) getting nothing at all. Business has become gambling and every
gambler ends up a loser, it's only a matter of time.

How's that for a cheer up lads?

Martin.

 

[Martin Maat]

In microsoft.public.dotnet.languages.csharp Bret Pehrson

Go ahead and offshore. You'll get exactly what you deserve.
Don't worry, when it doesn't work out, you can blame them
instead of yourself again.

This was about my sentiment too. It's interesting though, this is
precisely what happens everyday within companies. There is a gap between
entrepeneurs/management and software developers. The entrepeneur has an idea
that makes him happy and he is not going to let some nerd spoil it for him
by laying out the difficulties and uncertainties. So he will continu asking
people if they can make his idea happen until he finds someone that says
"Sure, can do! Consider it done!" This person is typically either completely
ignorant or thinking "once we've got this train moving there's no getting
off for him anyway so let's roll!".

We work in a wonderful industry.

Martin.

 

[Martin Maat]

You really need to reevaluate your 'idiot' position. I'm not attacking you,
contract programmers, executives, indians, or anything else for that matter --
SIMPLY ASKING FOR COMMENTS ON THE SUBJECT.

Let me step in here before someone gets hurt .

Technically you may not have been offensive but I can understand the
agressive response because you're "questions" were quite insulting to
software developers in general. It's no wonder programmers **** up your
projects all the time, I know I would .

Let's go back (this is going to be fun).

Well, I've been looking for well qualified US programmers,
and so far have lost a lot of my money on babysitting...

"They're an inmature lot those native programmers, they can't do anything
right. The moment I turm my back they screw up bigtime".

Yes I have experience managing US consultants (both local
and non-local). My specs are *very* well defined beforehand.

"I mean really, I spelled it out for them! Absolute morons."

FINALLY a valid reply to my post!

"I was getting so tired."

I asked *everybody*, and so far, out of the 50+ responses, I've only
seen/received 2 valid comments on the subject.

"I was so clear on what I wanted to hear and yet they start babbling about
all sorts of things as if they don't understand that their sole purpose of
being is answering my questions." Now it turns out that 98% of the lot
doesn't have any sense of what they are here for. I utterly look down on you
lot. Oh, by the way, does any of you have some good advise for me?"

I'm looking for someone that can get the job done on time
and on budget. Period.

"No buts! Just do what I say... I don't wanna hear it!"

Specs are nailed down, and well defined. Local firms have failed,

regardless.

"This is it, not debatable. Don't care what your problem may be. No, don't
wanna hear it. NO! NO! NO!" Here's your money, don't call."

Out of the flurry of responses, only a handful actually *addressed* my original
question. The rest of the responses had little or nothing to do w/ my

query.

"The nerve of those people. Chatting about issues I am not interested in...
Can you believe it?"

Maybe this is the key to weeding out the detritus: ask a
controversial question and see how they answer

"I get it now, the programmers community is like a fish tank. It can
actually be fun to watch once you understand just how stupid they are."


This is what they hear when you talk. Do you still want to deal with
software developers?

Martin.

 

[Bret Pehrson]

This is what they hear when you talk. Do you still want to deal with

software developers?

What "they" hear -- I'm one of them -- I'm a software developer, not some
high-priced executive looking to cut the bottom line.

 

[beagle]

You are a classic troll. Go away, and when you have something productive to
offer, let me hear it.

Give me a break. If you can't handle reality, perhaps you'd better
hide in your bedroom.

You're the troll here, Bret. You complain about *multiple* domestic
contractors not being able to create a product based on your specs.

Rather than blame yourself, you blame them.

And your solution is to ship the work overseas? Do you really expect
us to believe you're not a complete idiot?

Try re-reading my posts on the subject -- I'm looking for comments and
suggestions regarding offshore programming. I didn't say I was shipping the
work overseas. It sounds like your comments about me apply more to you.

Your reasons for considering offshore programming are pathetic. You're
an idiot. Do you have any employees named Dilbert?

 

[beagle]

Beagle -- come on, get with the program. I haven't made any sweeping
generalizations, merely stated MY experiences w/ the subject.

I'm not trying to bolster my case, as you put it. Merely asking for comments
on the subject of offshore programming. Some of your other responses have been
helpful, although I don't know if they are substantiated.

You really need to reevaluate your 'idiot' position. I'm not attacking you,
contract programmers, executives, indians, or anything else for that matter --
SIMPLY ASKING FOR COMMENTS ON THE SUBJECT.

It's a hot button topic for me. I know too many friends and collegues
who are losing their houses over this offshoring "megatrend". The
executive team keeps getting their millions, the programmers who are
lucky enough to keep their jobs have to integrate the disaster that
is "developed" offshore, and the folks that lose their job can give up
any hope they'll be able to afford to send their kids to college.

 

[Bret Pehrson]

Give me a break. If you can't handle reality, perhaps you'd better

hide in your bedroom.

On the contrary, I'm trying to accept the reality of offshore programming
resources, even though it is in direct competition to me as a contract
programmer.

Rather than blame yourself, you blame them.

I haven't blamed anyone -- I accept full responsibility for the results of any
product development, both done by me, or by subcontractors.

I will (continue) to evaluate my ability to communicate and effectively create
specifications, however that isn't what I originally requested in this thread.
I'm simply looking for comments and suggestions regarding offshore programming
shops.

And your solution is to ship the work overseas?

My solution is NOT to ship the work overseas, but to explore alternatives,
regardless of my performance, or the performance of domestic (or any other)
contract programmers.

Do you really expect
us to believe you're not a complete idiot?

I'm not trying to convince anyone of my idiocy, or lack thereof.

Thanks for your comments.

 

[Bret Pehrson]

Finally.

I appreciate your honesty -- yes, this has been a very hot topic for me as
well.

I'm a contract programmer and run a small contract programming business, not an
executive, and no, I don't make millions (not even close).

More and more of my large corporate clients are opting for offshore resources,
or H1B visa holders. I'm definitely feeling the squeeze, regardless of the
quality of my code or how well I keep to estimates or budgets. When the CFO
axe comes a swinging, it only seems to consider the bottom line.

So, in order to stay viable, I'm evaluating other options. Not that it was the
intent of my original post to bash US programmers, but I'm just trying to get a
realistic feel for offshore programming shops. The media can't be trusted on
this topic, so I was looking for some honest actual experiences.

I'll post one follow-up to my original post that will summarize what I've
found, and then I'm done w/ this topic.

 

[Bret Pehrson]

Here is the summary of what I've learned. Some responses were e-mailed, so
I'll just summarize w/o names:

- Cheap offshore programming is mostly a myth. It may look cheap on paper,
but the net result may be just as much as domestic programming.

- The project may be completed as spec'd, but the code itself may be 'a mess'
or otherwise unmaintainable. Others reported that the code was 'fine'.

- It was suggested to go through a domestic agency, instead of dealing
directly w/ the offshore shop. This introduces an additional level for
potential indirection as well as increased cost.

- You *must* have your requirements, specs, and related details crystal clear
beforehand, or else you will get something that is probably not what you want.

- Communication (because of language and/or time barriers) can be a minor to
serious impediment.

- It can be difficult to manage offsite programmers (domestic or overseas).

- There may be a high turn-over rate of programmers in the offshore shop,
leading to more potential problems.

- You must have realistic and definite milestones, and ensure that they are
met according to your (specified) expectation.

- Offshore programming is best for large, well defined projects (someone gave
me an example of porting an existing app from one platform to another), and is
very bad for small and/or changing spec projects.

- You must plan on daily (constant) communication with the offshore
resources. Failure to do so can quickly lead to interpretive deviations from
the spec or intended goal.

Thanks to all who responded.

 

[Roy Fine]

I prefer Bud Light and Guiness,

YIKES! -- is it legal to mix those two???

 

[ozbear]

I prefer Bud Light and Guiness, but if you program as well as you rebut
arguments, your viewpoints don't surprise me.

<snip>

The callousness you show is underserving of rebuttal.

Oz

 

[Mihajlo Cvetanovic]

Oh really? I've paid a lot of money for high-priced consultants, and ended up
w/ poor quality results.

And that, my friend, is why I'm here. I'm NOT getting what I paid for.

Have you considered Central and East European market? It's somewhat
costly but a lot trained/experienced than Indian.

 

[Guest]

And we follow formal methods more. Better working hours and human rights
unlike the US of A.SS

 

[William Ryan eMVP]

YIKES! -- is it legal to mix those two???

I should have been more clear, mixing those two together would be quite,
yucky.