How to find reliable offshore (India) programming shop? (this is not aspam)

[Bret Pehrson]

This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore shops
(I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and therefore I'm
looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o getting
screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in C++/C#,
so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks

 

[Bret Pehrson]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention:

Reasonable cost (read: cheap!)

 

[Derrick]

Do you have experience with managing US consultants developing for you,
offsite? If not, I would strongly suggest outsourcing to consultants in
another zip before offshoring to another country half a world away. You'll
rapidly determine if you have the product requirement gathering process in
place to make offshoring a "success oriented" endeavor.

 

[james]

And do you REALLY want to trust your database app. development to someone in
a country half a world away? There are a ton of well qualified programmers
here in the good old USA that need work
and given the chance could do that job much better than someone so far away
and out of your complete oversight. Besides, if cheap is your goal, don't
be suprised at what you end up with.
just my .02
james

Do you have experience with managing US consultants developing for you,
offsite? If not, I would strongly suggest outsourcing to consultants in
another zip before offshoring to another country half a world away. You'll
rapidly determine if you have the product requirement gathering process in
place to make offshoring a "success oriented" endeavor.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention:

Reasonable cost (read: cheap!)

in

 

[Trevor]

And do you REALLY want to trust your database app. development to someone in
a country half a world away? There are a ton of well qualified programmers
here in the good old USA that need work
and given the chance could do that job much better than someone so far away
and out of your complete oversight. Besides, if cheap is your goal, don't
be suprised at what you end up with.
just my .02
james

Amen to that. One of my favorite sayings is "You get what you pay for". I
didn't make it up or anything, but it is so true.

 

[William Ryan eMVP]

You've got to be careful with any outsourcing but there are some really top
notch people in India and if you do your homework, you can get some superb
work done very reasonably. You can also get ripped off, but regrettably
that's not something limited to foreign markets.

I'd first talk to Mahesh or one of the guys at www.csharpcorner (link to
outsourcing is here http://www.c-sharpcorner.com/Services/Outsourcing.asp).
Mahesh is as good as they get and although I haven't done business with him,
I'd have absolutely no reservation whatsoever in doing so.

On a side note, Paul D. Sherriff wrote a short but good article on
outsourcing work and it's relevant to both home and abroad.
http://www.pdsa.com/asp/News/NewsletterView.asp?ID=60

I'd caution you on something though....just because someone is expensive,
doesn't mean you are getting what you are paying for, in many instances it's
not the case. However, if you put 'cheap' as the first criteria, you are
setting yourself up to be played by someone that knows all they have to do
is offer you a price you like...once you obligate with them, you are on the
hook and 'cheap' can quickly become unaffordable.

First I'd define what I was really willing to spend, then make sure that
you have an enforceable agreement as to what is going to be done and when,
and for how much. Just because you have a contract, doesn't mean you have
actual recourse...here or abroad, and I'd really keep that in mind with 'one
man shops' or anyone that can't show you a ton of references. People that
have a lot of references typically invested a lot in their reputations, so
they aren't likely to piss it all away for a few dollars (although it does
happen). Also, check the references....if you see only companies that you
can't find anythign out about them..that's not a good sign.

The bottom line with anyone is make sure you check them out extensively, and
remember that Cheap is determined by TOTAL Cost, not just what they agree to
charge up front. If they do shoddy work, support won't be cheap by any
means...and that's usually where things get ugly if you aren't careful.

HTH,

Bill

 

[William Ryan eMVP]

You can't tell someone's work by price alone, there are a lot of prima donna
s out there that charge a lot..but I'll agree that if you get someone who
agrees to work for 'cheap' then either they will probably end up doing cheap
work, or kill you on cost overruns...or worse yet, have enough bugs that you
spend a fortune on support.

 

[gabriel]

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore
shops (I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and
therefore I'm looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go
about this w/o getting screwed.

Yeh, right... Ask the people loosing their jobs to help you with this...
LOL!

DUH!!!

 

[Peter Rilling]

From the other comments, looks like these people are trying to protect their
jobs and career.

Rule of thumb, never ask a developer for suggestions that might threaten
their job.

LOL

 

[William Ryan eMVP]

There are tons of good programmers in both countries and I don't think it's
fair to say that just because someone isn't in the same country or can't be
supervised constantly that they won't do good work. If you outsource here
in the states you won't have 'complete oversight' and to be honest, that who
would want 'complete oversight' . I think the goal is to hire true
professionals that you don't need to watch and can be counted on to reliably
produce what they agree to , when they agree to for the price they agree to.
Perhaps we live in different parts of the country, but hiring quality
developers, particlarly ones with .NET or Java experience has proven
difficult. They are there, but there's a lot more demand than supply. On
the other hand, there's no end to the number of guys who make ridiculous
claims on their resumes and think that because they have learned to create a
dynamic message with MessageBox.Show, it's cool to claim they are an
advanced .NET or Java developer. Or because they know SELECT * From
someTable that they are an Advanced Oracle or SQL Server developer.

I'd say on average, 1 in 40 people we've interviewed could do what they
claimed and we've interviewed much more than that...and while we're not
looking to outsource work, it can definitely get frustrating and I see why
many find it a viable alternative. To that end, I guess it really depends
on where you happen to be located.

Bill

 

[WJ]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention:

Reasonable cost (read: cheap!)

1. Think of Security! Are you concerned about security for yourself and your
country as a whole ?
2. Contribution to the Tax Based system: All right! Indian programmers are
cheap, but do they contribute tax $ to your community here in the US, your
home ? When your highways go bad, will Indian fix them ? Or will you, as a
"cheap" business man, pay for it ? I doubt about it.
3. Keep in mind that India is cheap, true, but only for short term. Once
they get their feet wet and gain technical knowledge, they will not be cheap
anymore.

Think about longterm 1st.

John Webb

 

[james]

You are right, you cannot tell the quality of someone's work simply by what
they charge for their work.
But, it stands to reason that if you insist on looking at immediate cost
alone and not consider the long term, then the cheap inital cost gets lost
in the upkeep or cost over-runs that you mention.
I have no doubt that there are very compentent developers in India as well
as other countries. But, it seems to me that so many companies are
becoming"bottom line concious" that they fail to even consider looking for
other answers here in their own country.
I don't neccessarily believe in protectionism, but, at the same time, I feel
that American companies are
failing to consider the impact on our local economy and our own citizens
when they move employment to other countries simply to save money. Also,
they don't seem to take into consideration the fact that they can be
compromising the company's data and intellectual properity simply by giving
others in another country access to it's development and maintenance. At
least by having the development and upkeep done here, at their own
facilities or those of another American company, they have some control.
And with another company here in our country, they also have legal recourse
if and when problems arise. Which, may not be possible in places like India.
Sometimes, saving money in this way really does not save anything. And can
end up costing more than it saves.
james

 

[james]

I really didn't mean to imply that programmers in Inda or any other country
were somehow inferior to programmers here. I just feel that too many
companies are taking the cheap way out to make a quick buck for the
stockholders and not considering the long term effects of moving development
to other countries. (as I explained in my other response to you)
Maybe, "complete oversight" was not the right choice of words. What I mean
is, simply put, if you deal with a company that is readily available to you
to do your application/database development, you have more control over the
results of that development. It is far easier to explain what you want done
to someone who speaks, reads & writes English as a first language as
opposed to someone that has learned it as a second language. I have run
into this problem myself with online tech. support from my ISP. Their Tech
Support staff is located in a Call Center in India. Ask them any question
that is even the least bit outside of their scripted question-response
guides and they fall apart. They use American sounding names : last one was
a Live Chat Help person: Glen J. as the questions went back and forth, it
became evident that this person did not speak English as their native
language. I finally asked and was told that they had only been speaking
English for a short time. I then asked where in India he was located and
his response was: he could not tell me that.
If simple Internet Service related issues create problems with them in
their understanding of the English language, what do you think will happen
with programmers in India that have the same issues of not understanding
English that well? I would hope that the companies there would employ
someone (or several someones) that understand English well enough to do the
work assigned to them.
I also have wondered how hard it would be for those "off Shore" programmers
to put a little backdoor
into a large application for a financial institution that had online access
for their users. It wouldn't be all that hard without some very close
supervision. Think of the damage that could be done by something like that.
A lot of bank accounts could get hit easily. It's bad enough that it can
happen here, it's even worse that it can happen outside our borders where we
have little recourse.
I really didn't mean to go into a long drawn out post, but, it just bothers
me a great deal to know that there are a lot of very good programmers in our
own country out of work and being put out of work
because companies in this country cannot find a way to keep those jobs here.
There are people that have taken pay cuts to keep their jobs. Just look at
American Airlines. A lot of their employees took a cut to keep the company
going. But, too many companies , instead of talking straight to their own
people, just do away with their jobs instead of trying to reach a solution
that helps the company and continues to provide a job for their employees.
james

 

[FDude]

1. Think of Security! Are you concerned about security for yourself and
your

country as a whole ?

If your talking IP rights issues, the same risk is run whether you outsource
to India or Indiana.

2. Contribution to the Tax Based system: All right! Indian programmers are
cheap, but do they contribute tax $ to your community here in the US, your
home ? When your highways go bad, will Indian fix them ? Or will you, as a
"cheap" business man, pay for it ? I doubt about it.

Do you ask all these same questions yourself when you as a CONSUMER
outsource? The same questions should be asked for those that shop at
wal-mart and purchase cheap made in China products.

3. Keep in mind that India is cheap, true, but only for short term. Once
they get their feet wet and gain technical knowledge, they will not be cheap
anymore.

This is the one thing you are absolutely correct upon. Wages are already
rising fast, and the currency relative to the US dollar is sure to follow in
the medium-term. Companies outsourcing work to India strictly for cost
reasons are selling out long-term wise for short-term gain; however, many of
the more astute, larger compaines are NOT outsourcing solely because of
cost. They recognize that India and China are HUGE markets and are trying
to tap them early, regardless of long-term wage / currency fluctuations.

 

[Bob Powell [MVP]]

Sign up for rent-a-coder. You'll get bids from programmers all over and both
they and you will be protected.

Sign up here--> http://tinyurl.com/2k7ql

If you want cheap, I wont even dream about offering you my services.

--
Bob Powell [MVP]
C#, System.Drawing

Answer those GDI+ questions with the GDI+ FAQ
http://www.bobpowell.net/gdiplus_faq.htm

Read my Blog at http://bobpowelldotnet.blogspot.com

 

[WJ]

If your talking IP rights issues, the same risk is run whether you outsource
to India or Indiana.

No. Security means at company and national levels for longterm processes.
You do not want to outsource high-tech works. Programming is hightech.
Locally, I can control disgruntled elements, but offshore is a little bit
harder. Another important aspect of "Security" is the "lost of hightech
jobs" to local technicians, people like you, me, our future generations....
You do not want your future children to bake crab-toys (happy meal toys) for
McDonald do you ? "Security" is a common sense issue for everyone.

Do you ask all these same questions yourself when you as a CONSUMER
outsource? The same questions should be asked for those that shop at
wal-mart and purchase cheap made in China products.

These are not high tech products. I call them "crabs". Keep in mind that
when you buy an appliance for your home, the sale tax is also included. In
short, hightech works produce larger income, hence helps the system.
Example: Some states in the US are very poor because hightech works had
traveled to somewhere else, educated peoples also migrated with their jobs.
No tax, lo life!

John

 

[DontEat Animals]

And do you REALLY want to trust your database app. development to someone in
a country half a world away? There are a ton of well qualified programmers
here in the good old USA that need work
and given the chance could do that job much better than someone so far away
and out of your complete oversight. Besides, if cheap is your goal, don't
be suprised at what you end up with.
just my .02
james

Nokia is a European Company having 90% of its employees in USA. That
time the European salary was 20% higher than USA. Now we are talking
about 800% cheaper wages in India and China, ofcourse nobody will pay
or come back without a trial run. In the long run American companies
will save its brand names with competitive price , uncompetitive
economy will collapse in the long run saving nobody's job.

 

[Piyush Rajput]

Hi Bret,

I understand your apprehensions regarding outsourcing and many a
comments posted by other people here are very right. But then as
William Ryan pointed out cost really doesnt tell you anything about
the quality of service you are going to get later on. And as to
whoever you outsource, it is hard to tell by just resumes/ website etc
about any company. Security related, project monitoring, IPR and other
issues will be same in my opinion whether you outsource your project
to an indian company or a local US firm.

I would suggest that to minimize your risks you should insist on
interviewing the people who are going to be assigned to your project.
This would give you a fair idea on not only their programming skills
but also their communication skills. Also wherever possible try and
check references. Choose a firm which has serviced at least a few US
or other foreign clients, preferably in the same language. Check with
those clients about the QOS, deleivery models etc. Check if there was
proper documentation, manuals, quality of code and all, as when one
outsources it is not just to save money but to save a lot of headaches
which come along with having an in house development team. So if in
getting the work cheaply done you end up getting a product/ code which
is poorly maintained, documented then in future if you want to add/
remove some features you are stuck.

And I would say that instead of using the word "cheap", you should try
and look for "less expensive"

Hope it is of some help ..

Warm Regards,

Piyush

rajput%piyush#msn$com
#To reply replace % with _ and # with @ and $ with .
# Sorry for the inconvi but just to aviod spiders..

 

[J]

This message isn't spam or an advertisement or trolling.

I'm considering farming some of my application development to offshore shops
(I'm in the US). I have absolutely *no* experience w/ this, and therefore I'm
looking for comments, suggestions, etc. on how to go about this w/o getting
screwed.

My current application development is primarily database-driven apps in C++/C#,
so I'm looking for programmers w/ up-to-date skills.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks

Before you do this consider your project requirements and your project
planning. Are your specs nailed down or do you anticipate mid development
changes, etc? If so, these may be handled better by a local firm.

 

[Carl Daniel [VC++ MVP]]

Sign up for rent-a-coder. You'll get bids from programmers all over
and both they and you will be protected.

Sign up here--> http://tinyurl.com/2k7ql

Or eLance - www.elance.com

-cd