How to find reliable offshore (India) programming shop? (this is not aspam)

[Martin Maat]

I think that would be actionable as false advertising under U.S. law.
Probably under Dutch law too.

I doubt it. It works like this:

These intermediaries are looking for business so they call some of the big
service companies, the employers of the people that are put to work at the
sites of companies that actually have the work. The conversation would go
like

intermediary> "Could you be interested in some really good and skilled
people for your business?"

service company> "Sure, we are always interested to see top-notch people
that can grow with us, enhancing our business".

intermediary> "How about me putting some forward to you? And you paying me
when they appear to be a good match?"

service company> "You can send us the c.v.'s. If we do need anyone we will
contact you and you can send them over. Then if we hire
one you will get your share. We need people in these area's: <list of skills
and traits>."


This would technically not be a false advertisement. The trained reader will
spot these kind of ads and assess then for what they are worth. It takes
some experience though. They will never state "this is not for real at the
moment, you will end up in a database and oh, there are about a dozen other
agencies doing the same but hey, in a couple of months, your c.v. may pop up
on some query and who knows". They will consciously suggest that this job is
hot, lots of times it will even say "urgently needed" and terms alike.

Another thing that may give the wrong impression is that when some company
actually does put out the word that they have a real vacancy, there will be
10 intermediary agencies jumping on it, all advertising on the same forum.
This will be very clear of course, the job describtion will be more specific
than that of the phony ones and several almost identical ads will appear on
the same forum at the same time. Most of the time the company itself also
has an ad out somewhere that you will be able to find or you will recognize
the company by the job description and you can address them directly.


You state that there are jobs out here, sure there are jobs out there. But
most of them are never advertised for, they are filled in silently without
any intermediary or ad. In order to be there in time you need a good network
and not many people have that. So you cannot blame someone without a job for
not finding the vacancy he would have been perfect for. Okay, that wasn't
exactly what you were doing but it is the message that is absorbed by those
who have been looking to no avail for a long time.

Martin.

 

[Bret Pehrson]

Yes I have experience managing US consultants (both local and non-local). My
specs are *very* well defined beforehand.

Do you have experience with managing US consultants developing for you,
offsite? If not, I would strongly suggest outsourcing to consultants in
another zip before offshoring to another country half a world away. You'll
rapidly determine if you have the product requirement gathering process in
place to make offshoring a "success oriented" endeavor.

 

[Bret Pehrson]

Well, I've been looking for well qualified US programmers, and so far have lost
a lot of my money on babysitting...

And yes, candidates/consultants were *thoroughly* evaluated prior to any work
starting.

Besides, if cheap is your goal, don't
be suprised at what you end up with.

Cheap is not my goal (my goal in this thread was to find out experiences w/
offshore programming shops.

**This is why I'm finding that some US contractors are failing, they DON'T READ
THE SPEC** which is also apparent here in this thread.

And do you REALLY want to trust your database app. development to someone in
a country half a world away? There are a ton of well qualified programmers
here in the good old USA that need work
and given the chance could do that job much better than someone so far away
and out of your complete oversight. Besides, if cheap is your goal, don't
be suprised at what you end up with.
just my .02
james

 

[Bret Pehrson]

Amen to that. One of my favorite sayings is "You get what you pay for". I

didn't make it up or anything, but it is so true.

Oh really? I've paid a lot of money for high-priced consultants, and ended up
w/ poor quality results.

And that, my friend, is why I'm here. I'm NOT getting what I paid for.

 

[William Ryan eMVP]

I prefer Bud Light and Guiness, but if you program as well as you rebut
arguments, your viewpoints don't surprise me.

 

[Bret Pehrson]

FINALLY a valid reply to my post!

You've got to be careful with any outsourcing but there are some really top
notch people in India and if you do your homework, you can get some superb
work done very reasonably. You can also get ripped off, but regrettably
that's not something limited to foreign markets.

I'd first talk to Mahesh or one of the guys at www.csharpcorner (link to
outsourcing is here http://www.c-sharpcorner.com/Services/Outsourcing.asp).
Mahesh is as good as they get and although I haven't done business with him,
I'd have absolutely no reservation whatsoever in doing so.

On a side note, Paul D. Sherriff wrote a short but good article on
outsourcing work and it's relevant to both home and abroad.
http://www.pdsa.com/asp/News/NewsletterView.asp?ID=60

I'd caution you on something though....just because someone is expensive,
doesn't mean you are getting what you are paying for, in many instances it's
not the case. However, if you put 'cheap' as the first criteria, you are
setting yourself up to be played by someone that knows all they have to do
is offer you a price you like...once you obligate with them, you are on the
hook and 'cheap' can quickly become unaffordable.

First I'd define what I was really willing to spend, then make sure that
you have an enforceable agreement as to what is going to be done and when,
and for how much. Just because you have a contract, doesn't mean you have
actual recourse...here or abroad, and I'd really keep that in mind with 'one
man shops' or anyone that can't show you a ton of references. People that
have a lot of references typically invested a lot in their reputations, so
they aren't likely to piss it all away for a few dollars (although it does
happen). Also, check the references....if you see only companies that you
can't find anythign out about them..that's not a good sign.

The bottom line with anyone is make sure you check them out extensively, and
remember that Cheap is determined by TOTAL Cost, not just what they agree to
charge up front. If they do shoddy work, support won't be cheap by any
means...and that's usually where things get ugly if you aren't careful.

HTH,

Bill

 

[Bret Pehrson]

I asked *everybody*, and so far, out of the 50+ responses, I've only
seen/received 2 valid comments on the subject.

 

[William Ryan eMVP]

Bret:

Scroll down to the original posts and see how ridiculous this whole thing
got. Basically it's turned into a bunch of capitalism and India
bashing...I'm with you on this one!

 

[Bret Pehrson]

Thanks for the link.

Do you have any experiences w/ this service?

As I said in my original post, I'm looking specifically for comments.

I'm looking for someone that can get the job done on time and on budget.
Period.

 

[Bret Pehrson]

Again, do you have any comments or experiences w/ elance?

 

[Bret Pehrson]

Before you do this consider your project requirements and your project

planning. Are your specs nailed down or do you anticipate mid development
changes, etc? If so, these may be handled better by a local firm.

Specs are nailed down, and well defined. Local firms have failed, regardless.

 

[Bret Pehrson]

Thanks for your comments. Finally some useful information in this
ever-deviating thread.

My advice would be to use a third party out-sourcing firm and forget the
word 'cheap'. Be prepared to compete for these off-shore developers.

This is the information I'm looking for, based on your actual experiences.
Thank you for taking the time to read my original post.

 

[Bret Pehrson]

Honestly, this thread has been very enlightening for me.

Out of the flurry of responses, only a handful actually *addressed* my original
question. The rest of the responses had little or nothing to do w/ my query.

And this is *exactly* what I have found w/ contract programmers. They don't
read. I spend an inordinate amount of time defining the requirements, spec,
and associated details, meetings, phone calls, e-mails, etc. only to have the
programmer NOT READ what is spec'd.

Maybe this is the key to weeding out the detritus: ask a controversial question
and see how they answer.

If anyone has additional comments, suggestions, or experiences w/ offshore
programming shops, I'd be interested to hear it. Again, thanks to all those
who responded on topic.

 

[Martin Maat]

Honestly, this thread has been very enlightening for me.

Out of the flurry of responses, only a handful actually *addressed* my original
question. The rest of the responses had little or nothing to do w/ my query.

And this is *exactly* what I have found w/ contract programmers.
They don't read.

Hehe. You may have a point there. On the other hand, this is an open forum
and we basically discuss what seems interesting, not necessarily only what
the original poster asked for.

The general idea about outsoucing to India in my area is that you get
axactly what you asked for, hence the need to spec well. If you know that
well what you want and it may be the thing for you.

Tell us next year how it turned out, okay?

Martin.

 

[Martin Maat]

Cheap is not my goal (my goal in this thread was to find out experiences w/
offshore programming shops.

**This is why I'm finding that some US contractors are failing, they DON'T READ
THE SPEC** which is also apparent here in this thread.

First we're not just here to answer your question and then be quite until
you come back with another question. Elaborating and touching other
questions does not necessarily mean we did not understand or could not be
bothered. The trait to provide what is asked is a two-edged sword., it can
be a good thing but it can also be a terrible thing. It means that if you
overlooked something and no one tells you or takes the trouble to work
around your mistake you will end up with very expensive junk. It is not
right for a developer to just do things different without any feedback but
it is equally bad to blindly follow specs. Most systems would simply be
impossible to build or would just not work if specs were followed
scrupulously. So there is bound to be some diversion fron the original specs
and it is your job as the producer to be on top of that proces to make sure
the inevitable diversions will not harm the solution.

Judging by the frustrated tone of your message you seem to have trouble
communicating with the people you hire. Moreover, you don't seem to consider
it necessary interact (after all, you gave them specs) , you don't want to
deal with them. When the specs are ready, you want to toss 'm over and the
project will be done as far as you're concerned. Now that is asking for
trouble. But hey, perhaps tossing the specs to the other side of the globe
will just fix it.

Martin.

 

[beagle]

Oh really? I've paid a lot of money for high-priced consultants, and ended up
w/ poor quality results.

And that, my friend, is why I'm here. I'm NOT getting what I paid for.

So rather than fix the REAL problem (your lack of ability to identify
competent talent), you'll just ship the work overseas?

Idiot.

Due to the demand for software developers in India, every Tom, Dick,
and Harry is getting into it for the money. Indian universities are
graduating totally unqualified people to meet demand.

Software development is HARD. I'll laugh my ass off when all these
idiot executives who are outsourcing and offshoring end up with a crap
product whose maintenance costs skyrocket into the heavens because the
code is so poorly constructed.

 

[beagle]

Specs are nailed down, and well defined. Local firms have failed, regardless.

Ah, the famous last words of incompetent management everywhere.

 

[beagle]

And this is *exactly* what I have found w/ contract programmers. They don't
read.

What a lovely sweeping generalization. It does a lot to bolster your
case.

Idiot.

I spend an inordinate amount of time defining the requirements, spec,
and associated details, meetings, phone calls, e-mails, etc. only to have the
programmer NOT READ what is spec'd.

And despite your personal perfection, those nasty contractors keep
messing it up for you! Poor baby.

If anyone has additional comments, suggestions, or experiences w/ offshore
programming shops, I'd be interested to hear it. Again, thanks to all those
who responded on topic.

Go ahead and offshore. You'll get exactly what you deserve.

Don't worry, when it doesn't work out, you can blame them instead of
yourself again.

Idiot.

 

[Alvin Bruney [MVP]]

You can kinda sorta tell this outsourcing is a sore spot right?
tehehe

 

[Alvin Bruney [MVP]]

My take on the whole issue?

You can't stop a train. Outsourcing is coming. Jump in, or get out the way.
Economics will eventually win. The price is unbeatable, there are a few
kinks to be worked out here and there which eventually will be worked out.
But that's what they are, kinks not showstoppers.

Eventually, the price of developing software will fall out of the sky and so
will programmer salaries. It's happening already. It's about competition,
and we aren't reacting to competition nicely by name calling.

Most IT companies will employ a small staff of developers for maintenance,
the main project will be outsourced. I've seen the future. Time to get into
consulting.