Gmail. Outlook 2003 and IMAP


M

Marts

I'm experimenting with Gmail, using it as an IMAP link for Outlook 2003.

I got it working, but Outlook does weird things.

Firstly, after I configured a new email account in OL and pointed it to Gmail,
it created another set of folders under the Mail. There are the existing Local
folders including Inbox, Deleted Items, Sent, etc. Then there are a set of
folders under a new one called Gmail.

Now, when I got Outlook to poll for mail it retrieved a heap of messages dating
back some time. Not sure where they came from as I had deleted all message in
Gmail before I started.

I then deleted these messages. Or rather, I tried to. All Outlook does is to
cross a line through them. I cannot get them to actually delete from Outlook. It
was only when I logged into Gmail webmail that they disappeared.

I then tried creating and replicating my existing message base but I couldn't
get it to work. I tried creating labels in Gmail but they didn't replicate in
Outlook.

All I am trying to do is to configure Outlook so that when I log onto my desktop
or onto my laptop that all message bases are the same. ie. I send a message from
the laptop that message also appears in the Send folder on the desktop computer.

Any tips on how to manage Gmail and IMAP with Outlook would be appreciated
 
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M

Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]

That is the way IMAP works. You have to either purge them in Outlook
(Edit->Purge) or log into your IMAP account and delete them.

http://www.w3schools.com/tcpip/tcpip_email.asp

--
Milly Staples [MVP - Outlook]

Post all replies to the group to keep the discussion intact.
ALWAYS post your Outlook version.
How to ask a question: http://support.microsoft.com/KB/555375


After furious head scratching, Marts asked:

| I'm experimenting with Gmail, using it as an IMAP link for Outlook
| 2003.
|
| I got it working, but Outlook does weird things.
|
| Firstly, after I configured a new email account in OL and pointed it
| to Gmail, it created another set of folders under the Mail. There are
| the existing Local folders including Inbox, Deleted Items, Sent, etc.
| Then there are a set of folders under a new one called Gmail.
|
| Now, when I got Outlook to poll for mail it retrieved a heap of
| messages dating back some time. Not sure where they came from as I
| had deleted all message in Gmail before I started.
|
| I then deleted these messages. Or rather, I tried to. All Outlook
| does is to cross a line through them. I cannot get them to actually
| delete from Outlook. It was only when I logged into Gmail webmail
| that they disappeared.
|
| I then tried creating and replicating my existing message base but I
| couldn't get it to work. I tried creating labels in Gmail but they
| didn't replicate in Outlook.
|
| All I am trying to do is to configure Outlook so that when I log onto
| my desktop or onto my laptop that all message bases are the same. ie.
| I send a message from the laptop that message also appears in the
| Send folder on the desktop computer.
|
| Any tips on how to manage Gmail and IMAP with Outlook would be
| appreciated
 
V

VanguardLH

Marts said:
I'm experimenting with Gmail, using it as an IMAP link for Outlook 2003.

I got it working, but Outlook does weird things.

Firstly, after I configured a new email account in OL and pointed it to Gmail,
it created another set of folders under the Mail. There are the existing Local
folders including Inbox, Deleted Items, Sent, etc. Then there are a set of
folders under a new one called Gmail.

That's how IMAP works. After all, you want your e-mail client to
reflect the folders that are up on the server, not to merge them into
other similarly named folders for other accounts. Otherwise, you won't
know what items in the Sent Items folder is for what account.

Outlook aggregates all POP and Exchange accounts under one message store
(.pst file) . Each HTTP account gets its own message store. Each IMAP
account gets its own message store. And each message store is displayed
separately in the folders view. Any time you use the File -> Open menu
to open a .pst file, it shows as a separate message store. You are
creating separate .pst files for each HTTP and IMAP account.

POP got aggregated under one message store because POP has no clue or
support for folders. POP only understands the concept of a mailbox.
All items delivered by POP are from this mailbox. No folders, just a
mailbox. When using the webmail client to your account, the Inbox is
tied to the mailbox.
Now, when I got Outlook to poll for mail it retrieved a heap of messages dating
back some time. Not sure where they came from as I had deleted all message in
Gmail before I started.

The joy of using Gmail. There's pseudo deletion in Gmail and then there
is real deletion. Probably you have have to purge your All Mail folder.
When configuring POP access in Gmail (in the server-side settings in
your account), you can specify to provide access to all items in your
mailbox or just those that are received after enabling POP access. You
don't get that option with their IMAP setup.
I then deleted these messages. Or rather, I tried to. All Outlook does is to
cross a line through them. I cannot get them to actually delete from Outlook. It
was only when I logged into Gmail webmail that they disappeared.

That's how IMAP works. Your e-mail client is staying in sync with what
is up on the mail server. You haven't yet actually deleted the message
up on the mail server. You only made it *eligible* for deletion in your
e-mail client (which you could undo). You either wait until the next
mail poll when your e-mail client synchronizes up with the mail server
(so items *marked* for deletion in your e-mail client will also get
deleted up on the server) or you use the Purge option in your e-mail
client to force an update on the mail server rather than wait for the
next mail poll.
I then tried creating and replicating my existing message base but I couldn't
get it to work. I tried creating labels in Gmail but they didn't replicate in
Outlook.

What does "couldn't get it to work" mean?
What does "replicating my existing message base" mean?

I don't do labels in Gmail. I access Gmail primarily through my local
e-mail client, not by using their webmail client where is the only place
you can define Gmail's own labels.
All I am trying to do is to configure Outlook so that when I log onto my desktop
or onto my laptop that all message bases are the same. ie. I send a message from
the laptop that message also appears in the Send folder on the desktop computer.

Any tips on how to manage Gmail and IMAP with Outlook would be appreciated

You're used to how POP works. IMAP works differently.

Your multiple hosts are polling the SAME account. With IMAP, each one
will sync to reflect what is currently on the mail server. You'll have
to explain just WHAT is different in one e-mail client (on your desktop)
using IMAP to your Gmail account versus what is different in the other
e-mail client (on your laptop).
 
D

Diane Poremsky [MVP]

Nothing weird - its how IMAP works. It's a server-based account so you need
a separate set of folders for the messages. Deleted items are marked for
purging. Labels are a gmail product - they are converted to folders in
outlook and you should have a folder for each label.

--
Diane Poremsky [MVP - Outlook]



Outlook Tips by email:
mailto:[email protected]

EMO - a weekly newsletter about Outlook and Exchange:
mailto:[email protected]

You can access this newsgroup by visiting
http://www.microsoft.com/office/community/en-us/default.mspx or point your
newsreader to msnews.microsoft.com.
 
M

Marts

VanguardLH wrote...
That's how IMAP works. Your e-mail client is staying in sync with what
is up on the mail server. You haven't yet actually deleted the message
up on the mail server. You only made it *eligible* for deletion in your
e-mail client (which you could undo). You either wait until the next
mail poll when your e-mail client synchronizes up with the mail server
(so items *marked* for deletion in your e-mail client will also get
deleted up on the server) or you use the Purge option in your e-mail
client to force an update on the mail server rather than wait for the
next mail poll.

I tried this but it didn't happen. Only when I logged into Gmail and deleted the
messages did it reflect that in Outlook.
What does "couldn't get it to work" mean?
What does "replicating my existing message base" mean?

I have in th Local Folders, a number of folders which contain messages that I've
sorted according to what they're about.

I was trying to replicate that, but I couldn't get it to work. (and I now
understand why after your explanation about the types of message stores, I
s'pose you call them).

I then created some folders in Gmail but they didn't appear in Outlook, even
after mail polls.
I don't do labels in Gmail. I access Gmail primarily through my local
e-mail client, not by using their webmail client where is the only place
you can define Gmail's own labels.

Yes, and it was in both Outlook and Gmail that I was trying to create the
sub-folders. But it didn't work.
Your multiple hosts are polling the SAME account. With IMAP, each one
will sync to reflect what is currently on the mail server. You'll have
to explain just WHAT is different in one e-mail client (on your desktop)
using IMAP to your Gmail account versus what is different in the other
e-mail client (on your laptop).

They should be the same. As I'm at work I can't confirm this.

Whatever, thanks for the help folks. I'll continue to have a play with it.
 
V

VanguardLH

Marts said:
VanguardLH wrote...


I tried this but it didn't happen. Only when I logged into Gmail and deleted the
messages did it reflect that in Outlook.

Be warned that Google does NOT follow the RFC standards regarding POP so
I suspect they are just as "loose" when it comes to IMAP. They support
enough of the standards to get POP and IMAP clients to *usually* work
with their webmail behavior. For example, when using POP, you can run
into the situation that your POP e-mail client doesn't find any new
e-mails to download but you can see new e-mails in the Inbox when using
the webmail client. If you look at the troubleshooting logs in your
local e-mail client, it sends a LIST command. This lists all items in
the mailbox (only the e-mail client tracks what is new or old to it;
there is no concept of new or old in a POP mailbox). If the mail server
returns a null (blank) list then it is telling the client that there are
no items in the mailbox. Gmail says there is nothing so the client has
nothing to retrieve. This is despite that Gmail's Inbox does show there
are items (which would be new to the client). Sometimes it works to
delete all items from Gmail's Inbox by using their webmail client, and
then your local e-mail client starts to retrieve items as they get
delivered thereafter to the mailbox. It's a Gmail ****up, it happens,
and you have to putz around trying to get Gmail to start providing a
non-blank list of items in the mailbox before your e-mail client can do
anything with them.

I've only played with Gmail's IMAP support a few times. As I recall,
the "normal" means of creating an IMAP account in your local e-mail
client may not work with Gmail. You have to go into the IMAP account's
properties in your e-mail client and specify the root folder for the
Gmail IMAP account. I think it's called "[Gmail]".

You also have to be cautious of what are the subscribed folders for the
IMAP account (what is kept in sync between the local- and server-side
folders) and what are just local folders. Gmail does NOT support the
subfolder hierarchy of IMAP so they do a "translation" based on labels.

when you delete the message with Gmail IMAP, it doesn't really delete it
in Gmail. It just removes the Inbox label from the message. It leaves it
in All Mail. I don't particularly like that, but if they keep increasing
my mailbox space over the years, I can deal with it. Something you
delete in a local Deleted Items folder is not the same as deleting it in
a subscribed Trash folder. You'll have to drag it to the Trash folder
under [Gmail] in your e-mail client. There it will be deleted
automatically by Gmail (after some undefined interval); otherwise, go to
that folder and permanently delete (Shift+Del).

Gmail has many web help pages that describe how THEY work (versus how
IMAP is expected to work).

http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=77657
http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=78892#
http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=78755

Because Gmail doesn't properly support POP, I gave up on using it. If
you only use the simplest of e-mail configs on your host, Gmail will
probably work. Once you insert an e-mail monitor, Gmail's POP will
fail. It will see a TOP n command (return headers and first n lines of
each mailbox message) as a RETR (retrieve) which means Gmail will mark
the item as read so another subsequent mail poll (by your e-mail client)
won't list the item (unless you do NOT configure Gmail to delete an item
after it was retrieved - but then it was NOT retrieved if TOP were
properly supported by Gmail). Per their own help pages, Gmail doesn't
properly support IMAP, either. I remember trialing IMAP for a short
time and gave up on it with Gmail.

Considering how their e-mail service works, it is unlikely that Gmail
will every properly support POP, and IMAP support is worse.
 
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M

Marts

VanguardLH wrote...
That's how IMAP works. Your e-mail client is staying in sync with what
is up on the mail server. You haven't yet actually deleted the message
up on the mail server. You only made it *eligible* for deletion in your
e-mail client (which you could undo). You either wait until the next
mail poll when your e-mail client synchronizes up with the mail server
(so items *marked* for deletion in your e-mail client will also get
deleted up on the server) or you use the Purge option in your e-mail
client to force an update on the mail server rather than wait for the
next mail poll.

I tried this but it didn't happen. Only when I logged into Gmail and deleted the
messages did it reflect that in Outlook.
What does "couldn't get it to work" mean?
What does "replicating my existing message base" mean?

I have in th Local Folders, a number of folders which contain messages that I've
sorted according to what they're about.

I was trying to replicate that, but I couldn't get it to work. (and I now
understand why after your explanation about the types of message stores, I
s'pose you call them).

I then created some folders in Gmail but they didn't appear in Outlook, even
after mail polls.
I don't do labels in Gmail. I access Gmail primarily through my local
e-mail client, not by using their webmail client where is the only place
you can define Gmail's own labels.

Yes, and it was in both Outlook and Gmail that I was trying to create the
sub-folders. But it didn't work.
Your multiple hosts are polling the SAME account. With IMAP, each one
will sync to reflect what is currently on the mail server. You'll have
to explain just WHAT is different in one e-mail client (on your desktop)
using IMAP to your Gmail account versus what is different in the other
e-mail client (on your laptop).

They should be the same. As I'm at work I can't confirm this.

Whatever, thanks for the help folks. I'll continue to have a play with it.
 
M

Marts

Diane Poremsky [MVP] wrote...
Nothing weird - its how IMAP works. It's a server-based account so you need
a separate set of folders for the messages. Deleted items are marked for
purging. Labels are a gmail product - they are converted to folders in
outlook and you should have a folder for each label.

I created the labels in Gmail but they didn't come across as folders in Outlook.

Don't know what I was doing wrong. When i get time I'll have another play with
it. I'm also experimenting with an email client called "Thunderbird". It seems
to do it a bit better. And as it appears to be very similar to the old Eudora
product which I used to use before going to Outlook it may end up being the way,
again.

Or at least my wife will.

We'll see...

Thanks for your input folks. It's appreciated.
 
B

Brian Tillman [MVP - Outlook]

Now, when I got Outlook to poll for mail it retrieved a heap of messages
dating
back some time. Not sure where they came from as I had deleted all message
in
Gmail before I started.

Are threse in a "folder" called "All Mail"? Gmail keeps ahistory of
themessages you've received in this special folder. The only way to empty it
is from the gmail server.
I then tried creating and replicating my existing message base but I
couldn't
get it to work. I tried creating labels in Gmail but they didn't replicate
in
Outlook.

Non-default folders in Outlook replicate as labels in gmail.
All I am trying to do is to configure Outlook so that when I log onto my
desktop
or onto my laptop that all message bases are the same. ie. I send a message
from
the laptop that message also appears in the Send folder on the desktop
computer.

Outlook 2003 requires the use of a rule to copy outgoing messages to the Sent
Items folder of the gmail message store. Otherwise they'll be placed in the
Sent Itemsfolder of the local folder set.
 
B

Brian Tillman [MVP - Outlook]

I created the labels in Gmail but they didn't come across as folders in
Outlook.

I believe you'll need to have Outlook query the server for new folders when
you create the labels on the gmail side via a web browser. I don't believe it
detects them automatically.
 
D

Diane Poremsky [MVP]

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M

Marts

VanguardLH wrote...
Be warned that Google does NOT follow the RFC standards regarding POP so
I suspect they are just as "loose" when it comes to IMAP. They support
enough of the standards to get POP and IMAP clients to *usually* work

Are there any public servers that offer IMAP? ie. ones which may work better
than Gmail?
 
V

VanguardLH

Marts wrote (on Sat, 13 Jun 2009 13:30:12 +1000):
VanguardLH wrote...


Are there any public servers that offer IMAP? ie. ones which may work better
than Gmail?

It's been too long since I last went hunting for freebie e-mail
providers. Don't remember which ones I tried back then. Google is
probably your best bet.

http://www.google.com/search?q=+free++email++imap

Just be careful to read the fine print. Read their TOS and their FAQ.
Sometimes you find the freebies are overly limited (bet you didn't know
about the anti-abuse/spam quotas at Gmail, either). Several times I
thought that I found a good freebie only to find out it was just a lure
because it was so crippled to be unusable. It was just a bait to get
you to pay for their commercial service. For example, Fastmail has IMAP
access but a puny 10MB disk quota.

Also, POP is an easier e-mail protocol regarding the resources needed to
support it. You'll find a lot more freebies offering POP than IMAP.
POP is cheap. IMAP is expensive. Also, the default with POP is to
delete after you retrieve an e-mail so your mailbox is automatically
cleaned up. IMAP leaves the messages on the server until YOU decide to
do the cleanup. While a 5GB mailbox is probably huge for POP (because
you won't leave stuff on the server), it isn't that big if you keep old
stuff in several folders.
 
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D

Diane Poremsky [MVP]

As in free? Not that I am aware of, but they tend to come and go so its hard
to keep up with them. There are some decent ones that charge a monthly or
yearly fee - such as offered by godaddy and many webhosts.

--
Diane Poremsky [MVP - Outlook]



Outlook Tips by email:
mailto:[email protected]

EMO - a weekly newsletter about Outlook and Exchange:
mailto:[email protected]

You can access this newsgroup by visiting
http://www.microsoft.com/office/community/en-us/default.mspx or point your
newsreader to msnews.microsoft.com.
 

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