FAT32 vs. NTFS

  • Thread starter Thread starter Guest
  • Start date Start date
Today JS attempted to dazzle everyone with this profound
linguistic utterance
Then I guess Windows Vista will have FAT in it. Just lean
mean New Technology File System which goes back about 10
years or more.
"New Technology" wasn't that even on its release day. When was
the last time you ever even heard of M$ creating anything truly
new and innovative? What they're best at is stealing ideas and
then destroying them. It would make me do a ROTFLMYA about Vista
if I didn't have M$ stock that is worth half what I foolishly
paid for it, the last time Bill said he was innovating.
 
The only time there is a compatibility issue is when you are attempting to
access the NTFS volume with a natively booted alternate O/S such as older
versions of Linux. (All newer versions know all about NTFS.) Native
Windows XP applications have no idea about the underlying file system unless
they look for it, and even then, they are not going to care unless they are
requiring low-level access. If you have a legacy application that pukes
with NTFS, tell us about it.

Opus
 
Today attempted to dazzle everyone with this profound
linguistic utterance


First, SP2 has no more security than did SP1 in this regard,
but it really doesn't matter in a single-use environment, that
used by the vast majority of XP users outside corporate IT
houses. Add to that the simple fact that "microsoft security"
is in the same class of oxymoron as "military intelligence" or
even the TLA "MAD", used during the Cold War, which was itself
a 3-word oxy - Mutually Assurred Distruction.


Read first. Not talking about SP. Talking about file systems. I'd contend
that a majority of non-corporate systems do indeed have multi users
(dad,mom, kids). Only NTFS allows you to secure folders by specific user.
 
=?Utf-8?B?QWJyYWhhbQ==?= said:
For 30 and 40 gigabyte multi-partition hard drives, is there any advantage to
using FAT32 vs. NTFS?

One can get to a FAT32 partition using a plain dos bootdisk. One CANNOT
get to a NTFS partition using a plain dos bootdisk.
 
Plato said:
One can get to a FAT32 partition using a plain dos bootdisk. One
CANNOT get to a NTFS partition using a plain dos bootdisk.

One can get to an NTFS partition using a BartPE boot-CD. It's been quite a
while since a last saw a PC sold with a floppy drive.
 
Asher_N said:
One can get to an NTFS partition using a BartPE boot-CD. It's been quite a
while since a last saw a PC sold with a floppy drive.

Oddly, floppy drive sales are healthy. Perhaps people are installing
them after the fact? Yes, my data points also include external USB
floppy drives. Still an oddity.
 
Abraham wrote:
Forget about FAT32 forever.

Dumb answer.

See http://cquirke.org/ntfs.htm

I'll paste it...

Executive summary

NTFS is a better file system, but the available maintenance tools and
options suck.

Either choice, you will win some and lose some.

Detail

FATxx is an old file system that is simple, well-documented, readable
from a large number of OSs, and supported by a wide range of tools.

NTFS is a newer file system that is feature-rich, proprietary,
undocumented at the raw bytes level, and subject to change - even
within Service Packs of the same OS version.

Keeping NTFS proprietary allows Microsoft to root NT's security
features deep within the file system itself, but it does cast doubts
about the reliability and version-compatibility of third-party
support. Without an official maintenance OS from Microsoft, one is
forced to look to 3rd-party solutions, and the high stakes involved
make FUD about accuracy of NTFS support a serious issue.

You are obliged to use FATxx if you need access from DOS mode or
Win9x, e.g. in a dual-boot scenario.

You are obliged to use NTFS if you need support for files over 4G in
size, hard drives over 137G in size, and/or you need to implement some
of NT's security management that devolves down to NTFS.

Else, weigh up the pros and cons, and remember you can use multiple
volumes, with different file systems for each. Even FAT16 has niche
strengths (small FAT, large cluster size, easier data recovery) that
may make it attractive for certain types of content.

More detail

NTFS may be faster...
- smaller RAM footprint as avoids large FAT held in RAM
- indexed design more efficient for many files per directory
- small file data embedded in dir level, avoids seek to data chain
- above factors make fragmentation less onerous than for FATxx
- 4k cluster size matches processor's natural paging size
....or slower...
- extra overhead of security checks, compression, encryption
- small clusters may fragment data cluster chains

NTFS may be safer...
- transaction rollback cleanly undoes interrupted operations
- file-level permissions can protect data against malware etc.
- automatically "fixes" failing clusters on the fly (controversial)
....or more at risk...
- no interactive file system checker (a la Scandisk) for NTFS
- no maintenance OS for NTFS
- malware can drill right through NTFS protection, e.g. Witty
- transaction rollback does not preserve user data
- transaction rollback does not help other causes of corruption
- more limited range of maintenance tools
- automatically "fixes" failing clusters on the fly (controversial)

NTFS may be more space-efficient...
- smaller cluster size than FAT32 above 8G
- may include data of small files within the directory level
- NTFS's bitmap structure is smaller than FAT32's dual FAT
- sparse files and compression can reduce data space usage
....or less so...
- NTFS has large MFT structure
- larger per-file directory metadata space

I would use NTFS where:

Users have professional-grade IT admin, including backup
Users need to hide data more than they need to salvage it
Applications require files over 4G in size
Hard drive exceeds the 137G barrier

But while NTFS has no maintenance OS from which...

Data can easily be recovered
File system structure can be manually checked and repaired
Malware can be scanned for and cleaned

....I would avoid the use of NTFS in consumer PCs


Since I wrote the above, it's possible to tackle malware via Bart PE
CDR - do a Google( Bart PE ) - but there are still no manual file
system repair or data recovery tools for NTFS.


-------------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
Tip Of The Day:
To disable the 'Tip of the Day' feature...
 
Abraham wrote:
Personally, I wouldn't even consider using FAT32 when NTFS is an
option. FAT32 has no security capabilities, no compression
capabilities, no fault tolerance, and a lot of wasted hard drive space
on volumes larger than 8 Gb in size.

Personally, I wouldn't even consider using NTFS when it has no
interactive file system repair tools or manual data recovery tools.
But your computing needs may vary, and there is no hard and fast answer.

If you want a better chance of recovering your data, then FATxx is a
better choice; if you'd rather lose your data than let the wrong folks
get hold of it, then NTFS fits those needs.

Speed isn't a reason why I'd choose one over the other, because your
mileage varies based on exactly what you are doing (file size, number
of files per directory, etc.).

The nice thing about partitioning is that you don't have to use the
same file system for everything - in practice, I use a mix of FAT32
and FAT16 volumes, given I have no use for NTFS security features and
don't need to store very large files.

NTFS tends to locate certain things in the middle of the volume, even
if the volume is empty, which makes for more head travel. You can fix
this effect by making the volume smaller, or using FATxx instead.

I wouldn't use "one big C:" with either file system.

Partition sizes, usage patterns, and killing off System Restore on
"distant" volumes can have more positive (or negative) performance
impact than choosing one file system or the other.

-------------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
Tip Of The Day:
To disable the 'Tip of the Day' feature...
 
For 30 and 40 gigabyte multi-partition hard drives, is there any advantage to
using FAT32 vs. NTFS?

The system or boot partition at least should be
FAT32 for future troubleshooting purposes. This
type of sophisticated worm attack for instance:
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,125798,00.asp
would be much easier to deal with in FAT32 by
booting to a genuine DOS prompt than with NTFS.
You would need a much more complicated boot
CD -- Bart's PE or Linux -- to access the NTFS
hard drive for recovery (although I usually find it
easier to just remove the infected hard drive and
temporarily attach it to another system.)

-BC
 
cquirke said:
Personally, I wouldn't even consider using NTFS when it has no
interactive file system repair tools or manual data recovery tools.


We've been down this road before. If a file system rarely fails, there
isn't going to be any need for such things.

If you want a better chance of recovering your data, then FATxx is a
better choice;


Shouldn't the above read "If you want a better chance of *needing* to
recover...?" It would certainly be more accurate.

if you'd rather lose your data than let the wrong folks
get hold of it, then NTFS fits those needs.


Are you trying to say that FAT32 has better file system security that
NTFS?




--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:



They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin
 
cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user) wrote:
We've been down this road before. If a file system rarely fails, there
isn't going to be any need for such things.

In the 3-year life of a PC, it may have one hard drive failure
(hopefully slow and progressive rather than abrupt), one case of bad
RAM, none to multiple malware attacks, several to many malware scares,
a few "oops I shouldn't have deleted that" mistakes, and any number of
user failures such as improper shutdowns.

Those things will clobber FATxx and NTFS pretty much equally. The
question is; which is easiest to recover data from, or repair
intelligently? Which one has the widest range of tools?
Shouldn't the above read "If you want a better chance of *needing* to
recover...?" It would certainly be more accurate.

No, it wouldn't.

If you interrupt a file write, both FATxx and NTFS will lose the rest
of the file for exactly the same reason. Both will take a similatr
approach to fixing the file system (at the file's expense). It may be
possible to back out of the "fix" in FATxx and recover what was left
of the broken file. It won't be possible to do that in NTFS.

If you throw random gobs of bytes all over the file system, as will
often happen when RAM is defective, then both FATxx and NTFS will be
affected. How much redundancy does NTFS have, with regards to the
free space bitmap and cluster run info? One again, NTFS becomes the
inscrutible molten lump you have to shrug and walk away from, whereas
with FATxx you can do manual repair and recovery.

There's one reason why you may get bad mileage on FATxx in XP, and it
has nothing to do with the file system. Try this:
- deliberately damage a FATxx file system on a < 137G HD
- rt-click the drive letter, go Properties, Tools, Check for errors
- notice how fast it "scans", like 200+ fake antispyware scanners?
- notice how it "finds no errors"?
- now get out of XP into DOS mode, and run Scandisk
- see how much longer it takes to *really* check the file system?
- notice how the file system wasn't so error-free after all?
Are you trying to say that FAT32 has better file system security that
NTFS?

No; on the contrary, NTFS is much more effective at preventing the
"wrong ppl" from accessing you data. What FATxx is better at, is
survivability; NTFS is brittle, welded shut, with only a chainsaw for
tools. In fact, NTFS can be so brittle that it can crash NTFS.SYS

This I saw on a file system that passed BING's partition file system
check without errors, and gave no errors when copying files off it
from DOS NTFS tools. Why was I using DOS NTFS tools? Because they
were the ONLY things that didn't rely on NTFS.SYS, unlike:
- Windows, including Safe Mode
- Bart PE boot CDR
- various Linuxes that use Capture to shell NTFS.SYS
- the pay-for SystemInternals writable NTFS driver for DOS/9x

Go figure.


------------ ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
The most accurate diagnostic instrument
in medicine is the Retrospectoscope
 
The system or boot partition at least should be
FAT32 for future troubleshooting purposes. This
type of sophisticated worm attack for instance:
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,125798,00.asp
would be much easier to deal with in FAT32 by
booting to a genuine DOS prompt than with NTFS.

Actually, the scales are evening out at the moment, because Bart PE is
emerging as a far more effective platform than DOS mode, when it comes
to malware management. That may go for a ball when Vista comes out;
hopefully MS will bring out a proper mOS at the time of release (hah!)
You would need a much more complicated boot
CD -- Bart's PE or Linux -- to access the NTFS

Yes, Bart can do that quite well, where malware is concerned - if you
use the RunScanner plugin, then you can direct registry-based
integration managers such as HiJackThis or Nirsoft to read the HD's
installation too. But making a Bart CDR isn't as easy as making a
boot-and-scan diskette in 1995, or even a set of boot, scanner and
data diskettes as one did in 2000.

The trouble is, NTFS is a moving target - so there is always likely to
be some new version bells and whistles that aren't fully emulated or
supported by alternate maintenance OSs and drivers. Just think about
how slippery ADS are, and how malware can and do use them.

But the real weakness of NTFS is repair and recovery from corrupted
file systems and/or failing hard drives. NTFS is as doomed as ye olde
Stacker Disk Compression, from which we fled in droves.
hard drive for recovery (although I usually find it
easier to just remove the infected hard drive and
temporarily attach it to another system.)

I prefer my host OS to be read-only; there are too many possible ways
for an infected drop-in HD to attack XP's flabby, all-embracing risk
surface ("Ooo look, a strange hard drive! Let's grope everything on
it to make thumbnails, build indexes and an SR subtree! Too bad if
that SR subtree trashes the file system and overwrites lost data, or
our unsolicited groping offers a buffer overflow opportunity")

There's enough in the entrails to predict where Vista will get hurt.


------------ ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
The most accurate diagnostic instrument
in medicine is the Retrospectoscope
 
I think what the world needs is an alternative, non-
proprietary file system like Reiser4 that you can
add to Windows for managing all of the non-system
partitions and drives, and accessible by all other
OS's and recovery CD's. Screw NTFS and Microsoft's
"toying" with it.

On a side note, a friend dropped his Sony notebook
and then couldn't boot his system and asked me to
take a look at it. There was no boot and recovery
console showed an unformatted drive. I pulled the
drive, put it in a adapter, and then attached it to
another system, and while the 2 partitions were
visible, they looked unformatted. Not real promising
looking and I wasn't really keen on browsing a 40gb
hard drive looking for files with a disk editor, so I
thought to try out some of those NTFS recovery utils
I've seen online from time to time. This one ended up
really rocking:
http://www.stellarinfo.com/disk-recovery.htm

It was able to get pull everything off intact to a
USB hard drive. It took a while, but I just left it
running unattended. My friend took his Sony back and
got a replacement hard drive for it under an extended
warranty (I also ended up having to put XP back
since the store techs in question kept mucking up
the XP reinstall and my friend gave up on them after
4 wasted trips in.)

But at the end, he got his all his stuff back and a
much faster notebook to boot (so to speak) since his
Sony, despite being only about 2 yrs old and top of
the line at the time, had been also suffering from a
bad, bad case of WinRot as well.

FYI.

-BC
 
Back
Top