Dual-boot XP/XP?

[Heather]

I have been running a dual-boot (Win98 / XP) system ever since
a couple of programs I needed to use were only compatible with
Win98. Now I don't need these programs any longer, while at the
same time I was going to upgrade to a newer machine, so I was
wondering if anyone else has been using a dual-boot "XP/XP"
configuration?
The reason I'm considering another dual-boot system is that it
was easy to clone the XP partitions with Win98, to make a spare
HDD in case of a crash, rather than using a program like Acronis,
which forces specific partition sizes and requires the target HDD
to be of equal or larger size than the source HDD.

Whenever I had a HDD crash in the past, it always affected the
C-partition only, so by keeping my data on other partitions, I have
been fortunate so far to never losing any. With this in mind, I was
going to set up the main XP OS again on the D-drive (data on drive E,
etc), while the C-drive would just occupy an unused 2nd XP system
whose only purpose would be to allow me to clone (or delete) material
on my main system which couldn't be done while in use. -H.

 

[Tim Meddick]

If you are using (d as your system drive and you then clone partition 1,
using partition copying software, onto partition 0 you will not be able to
dual-boot into the backup (c partition by trying to boot into partition
0.

This is because all the locations in the registry, including expandable
environment variables such as %HOMEDRIVE% and %SystemRoot% will be
incorrect. As at present on your system, as I understand it, these
variables should point to (d and therefore will still do so when you try
to boot the cloned partition on drive (c.

Because drive (d is still in existence, and for all intents and purposes,
is still an exact copy to (c the boot should actually work, but only
because it's using file-locations pointed at by the same system variables
(i.e.; on (d) and would completely fail to boot if (c were left as the
only drive.

For both XP installations to work, you would have to install them
consecutively, first on (c and then again onto (d - but then you would
not be able to clone one onto another and still have them be truly
dual-bootable.

To do that, you would have to have two physical hard-drives and set-up the
first with the dual-bootable twin XP installations - then when you wanted
to clone an XP installation, you would do so to it's respective counterpart
on the other physical hard-drive.

i.e.
clone drive 0 partition 0 onto drive 1 partition 0
clone drive 0 partition 1 onto drive 1 partition 1

Then both disks would be dual-bootable and you would be able to clone
either partition on drive 0 to it's respective partition on drive 1

==

Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London.

 

[Tim Meddick]

Bill,
It isn't that simple - the point being that, I believe, the OP has
said, her present XP is installed to (d and that she wants to backup
(copy) that partition to (c and be able to boot both (via an XP-managed
dual-boot setup)!!

==

Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London.

 

[John John MVP]

I have been running a dual-boot (Win98 / XP) system ever since
a couple of programs I needed to use were only compatible with
Win98. Now I don't need these programs any longer, while at the
same time I was going to upgrade to a newer machine, so I was
wondering if anyone else has been using a dual-boot "XP/XP"
configuration?
The reason I'm considering another dual-boot system is that it
was easy to clone the XP partitions with Win98, to make a spare
HDD in case of a crash, rather than using a program like Acronis,
which forces specific partition sizes and requires the target HDD
to be of equal or larger size than the source HDD.

Whenever I had a HDD crash in the past, it always affected the
C-partition only, so by keeping my data on other partitions, I have
been fortunate so far to never losing any. With this in mind, I was
going to set up the main XP OS again on the D-drive (data on drive E,
etc), while the C-drive would just occupy an unused 2nd XP system
whose only purpose would be to allow me to clone (or delete) material
on my main system which couldn't be done while in use. -H.

Sure, that is simple as pie. Just install Windows XP on the first
partition and then install it again on the second partition, that is all
there is to it. You can install it to as many partitions as you want on
the same disk, you can even install it on logical drives if you want,
only the system files (ntldr, NTDETECT.COM & boot.ini) need to be on the
primary active partition, the rest can be installed wherever you want as
often as you want, it is only limited to the size of the disk and the
number of available partitions. BUT.... keep this in mind, you will
only be able to activate ONE of the installations!

So, how do you go about using a second installation when you can only
activate one? The easiest way is to clone your Windows installation to
a second hard disk. If you insist on doing this with one disk only you
can clone one installation to a second partition, it takes a few extra
steps but that isn't that big a deal. You can go about it this way:

1- Install and activate your first copy of Windows XP on the primary
active partition, we will consider this partition to be your C: drive.

2- Use your cloning software and clone the Windows installation on C:
to your second partition, we will assume the second partition to be D:,
your C: drive will remain the primary active partition, the Windows
installations will be booting using the ntldr, NTDETECT.COM & boot.ini
files on the C: drive.

3- Edit the boot.ini file on C: and add a second line where the ARC
path points to the second (cloned) installation on the D: drive,
typically the edited boot.ini file will look like this:

===================================================================
[boot loader]
timeout=30
default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS
[operating systems]
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS="Microsoft Windows XP
Professional" /fastdetect
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(2)\WINDOWS="Microsoft Windows XP
Professional" /fastdetect

====================================================================

Note that partition enumerations start at number 1, there is no such
thing as partition 0, the second "multi(0)..." line (the ARC path) in
the boot.ini file instructs ntldr to load the Windows installation
located in the WINDOWS folder on the second partition. The stuff
between the "quotation marks" is just descriptive text for human eyes,
you can enter whatever you want there, for example:

multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS="Windows XP on Partition 1"
/fastdetect
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(2)\WINDOWS="Windows XP on Partition 2"
/fastdetect


4- Edit the HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\MountedDevices\DosDevices\D:
value on the SECOND (drive D installation and change the the value to
\DosDevices\C: To do this will will first have to release the C: drive
letter to make it available, do it this way:

Remember, this is done on the registry on the SECOND installation:

1- Rename \DosDevices\C: to \DosDevices\X:, this will free up drive
letter C.
2- Rename \DosDevices\D: to \DosDevices\C:
3- Rename \DosDevices\X: (from step 1) to \DosDevices\D:

You can remotely edit the registry on the second while logged on to the
first installation, you can use Regedit to load the SYSTEM hive of the
second installation, see here for easy to follow instructions:
http://www.rwin.ch/xp-live/regedit.htm Don't forget to unload the hive
when you are done or else the changes will not be saved.

And that is it. When you boot the computer you will be presented with
two boot options, you just have to select the installation that you want
to boot and away you go. The drive letter assignments on Windows XP are
recorded in the Mount Manager database
(HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\MountedDevices) and are persistent:

- When you boot the Windows installation on partition 1:
The first partition will be assigned drive letter C:
The second partition will be assigned drive letter D:

- When you boot the Windows installation on partition 2 the Windows
installation will retain its drive C: letter assignment:
The first partition will be assigned drive letter D:
The second partition will be assigned drive letter C:

After all of this is said and done do I think that this is a good
recovery strategy? No, not at all! If you really want to use a "2
Windows installation" setup you really should use TWO hard disks! Your
comment that "Whenever I had a HDD crash in the past, it always affected
the C-partition only, so by keeping my data on other partitions, I have
been fortunate so far to never losing any..." is nothing but pure luck,
this is a very poor backup and recovery strategy! You are tempting fate
and sooner or later your luck will run out and this strategy will leave
you up the creek without a paddle. Get yourself a second hard disk for
your backups, you can use an external USB or eSata disk for this (eSata
is faster than USB). As for "cloning" this is ok but it's usually used
when you replace failing drives rather than a backup, images use less
space and they can quickly be restored in emergency situations, I like
TeraByte's Image for Windows, it's a small and clean imaging utility and
it works like a charm, you can get it here:
http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/image-for-windows.htm

John

 

[Heather]

I guess I wasn't clear enough on my intentions.
(Tim, I wanted to copy the exact same configuration - NOT switch drives).

The only reason for a dual-boot was to be able to make an exact SPARE
2nd copy of my existing HDD without using Acronis, because the cloning
software won't let me choose the size of the drive and partitions
(I have made clones with Acronis before but didn't like that I could not
choose the configuration myself).

Right now, I can use Win98 (C-drive) and xcopy the entire HDD,
containing Win98, XP and the data on the other partitions to another
HDD as an exact clone. If the present HDD dies, I just swap the drives
and continue with the cloned HDD.

I was intending to do the exact same thing with the next computer,
except that instead of using Win98 as the copying tool, I thought of
using a 2nd XP OS instead.

From the reply by "John John MVP" -- the only potential problem then
is activation of the second XP installation. Not disputing this, but it
does sound odd that using the same computer, activation wouldn't go
through? But then, that is why I posted here to see if anyone else has
done this before.

 

[Tim Meddick]

This, was more or less, what I was saying - and that, conversely, it's also
true that if you can clone the partitions to another, physical, HDD, then
everything's sweet - it's when you only have *one* HDD and two partitions;
each with XP on it.

So, you can't then copy one partition onto another, without ruining the
dual-boot capability.

So, I got it wrong, when I thought that was what you wanted to do. For
this, I do apologize.

But I think we're both on the same page, and my little diagramette on my
previous post still holds true ;


copy partitions as follows ;

you may clone : [drive 0 partition 0] onto : [drive 1 partition 0]
you may clone : [drive 0 partition 1] onto : [drive 1 partition 1]

==

Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London.

 

[John John MVP]

So, you can't then copy one partition onto another, without ruining the
dual-boot capability.

Of course you can and you will still be able to dual boot between the
different installations.

John

 

[John John MVP]

I guess I wasn't clear enough on my intentions.
(Tim, I wanted to copy the exact same configuration - NOT switch drives).

The only reason for a dual-boot was to be able to make an exact SPARE
2nd copy of my existing HDD without using Acronis, because the cloning
software won't let me choose the size of the drive and partitions
(I have made clones with Acronis before but didn't like that I could not
choose the configuration myself).

Right now, I can use Win98 (C-drive) and xcopy the entire HDD,
containing Win98, XP and the data on the other partitions to another
HDD as an exact clone. If the present HDD dies, I just swap the drives
and continue with the cloned HDD.

I was intending to do the exact same thing with the next computer,
except that instead of using Win98 as the copying tool, I thought of
using a 2nd XP OS instead.

From the reply by "John John MVP" -- the only potential problem then
is activation of the second XP installation. Not disputing this, but it
does sound odd that using the same computer, activation wouldn't go
through? But then, that is why I posted here to see if anyone else has
done this before.

The EULA states that you can only activate (use) ONE copy of Windows XP
on one machine at any given time, you are not allowed to have TWO or
more copies of the software installed at any given time even if the
copies are on the same computer. According to the terms of the EULA you
are not even allowed to run another copy inside a virtual machine on
your already existing installation.

To me you are over-complicating things, if Acronis doesn't work properly
for you just dump it and get something else that does the job properly.
For what you want to do I would recommend that you give Casper a try:
http://www.fssdev.com/products/casper/ I think this will do exactly what
you want to do with the least amount of fuss and complications, this is
a TWO hard disk solution and you will be able to do exact clones of your
installation without having to boot on to a different installation. I
still think that you should create an image of your base installation,
regularly cloning the installation is fine but if the installation
develops an unseen or unnoticed problem you might be cloning the problem
into your backups and the backup may be useless at a later point. An
image of a pristine new installation is always a good thing to have on
hand when the Windows installation develops problems.

John

 

[Heather]

Great feedback -- thanks everyone !!

 

[John John MVP]

I still don't see the great advantage of cloning over imaging here, UNLESS
she (or anyone) insists on being able to swap drives for backup, if the need
arises.

I wholeheartedly agree with you, regular cloning can serve as a quasi
redundancy solution (RAID-1 mirror being the ultimate redundancy
solution). With regular cloning if the main drive develops problems one
can easily switch to the cloned drive with the least amount of down
time. With a RAID-1 mirror of course if one drive fails the computer
just keeps on working with the mirror without even as much as a reboot!
With hot swappable drives a failed RAID drive can be removed and the
mirror can be rebuilt without bringing down the computer, this is really
only good for redundancy and usually only used on servers and on mission
critical workstations. The problem with these things is that they are
not really backups, if you bork a Windows installation on a RAID-1
machine then the mirror is also borked! The same thing also applies to
cloning, if you get an undetected virus or rootkit, or if you
unknowingly delete important files and then clone the drive you are
carrying the old baggage along with the clone. If one week later you
find out that files are missing or that the security of the machine is
compromised beyond trust then the clone is no better than the
installation from which it was made. And, as you mentioned, compared to
images clones take a lot of disk space, you can't easily keep many
clones without investing into extra storage capacity.

I think that the best solution is to do a nice, clean, fully updated
Windows installation and to then make an image of the installation and
store it in a safe place. You can then take regular updated images of
your installation or rely on clones but you still have the clean image
that you can use when things go really wrong. I also don't like the
idea of relying on clones or system images for my personal data backups,
I do take images of my whole drives, including my data, but for peace of
mind I also backup my data files separately.

John

 

[choro]

Heather,
You've been lucky up to this point, since your dual-boot backup method
only works as long as the harddrive is still bootable.
A better plan would be to use a two harddrive strategy. One drive being
your installed/main use drive, the other being your spare/backup drive.
If you don't want to use the likes of Acronis or Norton Ghost, another
option is to use XP's NT Backup (its installed by default on XP Pro,
need to install it from the XP CD if using XP Home).

The plan:
Format and Partition the main drive as you prefer.
Do a clean install of XP on your main drive, customize it, install your
programs, etc, then use NT Backup to create a backup file of your XP
installation.
If you have data on or want to keep data on other partitions, you can
also create a backup file(s) of any or all data on those partitions.

Disconnect the main drive, install the spare drive.
Format and partition the spare drive as you prefer.
Do a clean install of XP on the spare drive, then use NT Backup to
'restore' the main drives backup file(and other data backup files too)
to the backup drive. Now you have a complete backup drive ready to go
should the main drive become unbootable.
Disconnect the backup drive, reconnect the main drive.

In the event the OS on the main drive got farkled, but the harddrive is
still bootable, you could 'restore' (may need to reinstall XP first)
using your backup file.

Keep in mind that as you install programs and add data, you could create
new backup files in order to avoid having to reinstall recent programs
and/or transfer recent data from one drive to another after a crash.
Creating new backups from time to time also saves your bacon in the
event of a complete harddrive failure.

Lastly, if you are considering a new build, move on to Windows 7.
Odds are you will have driver issues or no drivers available for new
hardware with XP.

My two cents.

Sorry, I do not follow you. Are you doing the back-up of the original HD
onto an external hard drive? You are not making this clear with the
result that some people might start thinking that you are doing the
backups of the original HD onto that very same HD. This of course is
possible and quite feasible if you create a separate partition for the
backups which you can then copy onto the second spare hard drive -- so
long as you do this before the original HD has given up the ghost!

Yes, it *is* a good idea to keep the second HD inside the computer case
but disconnected. At least you will be able to find it if and when you
ever need to, so long as you remember where it is. ;-)

The other day I was looking for my glasses which were popped up on my
head. <BG>

But why not reinstall everything from scratch on a new drive. At least
that way you can do a spring clean too, you know. The only back-ups I do
are xcopy backups of my user files which can actually copy all my user
files in one go: yes, 40 to 50 thousand files, and then continue writing
identical copies of my NEW user files onto the external HD.

Yes, reinstalling all the programs one at a time does take a lot longer
but it is surprising how many programs you decide are just not worth
while re-installing on the new HD. Spring cleaning is the bonus you get
doing it this way.

In fact I prefer to copy all my user files onto a second HD or a
separate partition so they are there if and when I need them OR if my
external hard disk decides to pack up one day. That can pack up too you
know! I only transfer only those items in the old My Documents to the
new HD/HD Partition.

 

[John John MVP]

I dual boot Win 7 (C drive) and XP (D drive). My documents are on a totally
different drive and are accessible to both OS's. I have Acronis scheduled
to image each of the OS drives once a week onto yet another drive. In
addition I have an app called Second Copy that runs every night and updates
any documents I've changed during the day to another computer.

So I'm pretty well covered. But I always like to look at other disk imaging
tools. I followed your link and read up on the terabyte Image For Windows.
Since you're recommending it, I figure you probably know a little bit about
it. Does it do anything Acronis doesn't do or have any advantages? The
price is only a hair lower (38.94 / 39.99).

As far as I'm concerned Acronis has become a 200MB+ bloated bag of bugs,
the corporate versions now come with Acronis License Server, an
absolutely terrible piece of crap which is sure to leave you hanging
high and dry when (not if) it screws up. Acronis has very long
tentacles and it hooks itself deeply into the operating system and when
it runs amuck it can be a difficult piece of software to get rid of
properly. When you have crocodiles snapping at your ass and when you
need to restore an image in the fastest way the last thing you need is
having to fiddle about with a boated application that blows up in your
face at the worse possible time! TeraByte's Image for Windows doesn't
have a lot of bells and whistles but it's a small utilities that works
without fuss when you need it the most.

John

 

[BillW50]

In

As far as I'm concerned Acronis has become a 200MB+ bloated bag of
bugs, the corporate versions now come with Acronis License Server, an
absolutely terrible piece of crap which is sure to leave you hanging
high and dry when (not if) it screws up. Acronis has very long
tentacles and it hooks itself deeply into the operating system and
when it runs amuck it can be a difficult piece of software to get rid
of properly. When you have crocodiles snapping at your ass and when
you need to restore an image in the fastest way the last thing you
need is having to fiddle about with a boated application that blows
up in your face at the worse possible time! TeraByte's Image for
Windows doesn't have a lot of bells and whistles but it's a small
utilities that works without fuss when you need it the most.

John

I don't disagree John. Although you don't have to install it either to
use it. Unless you want to use it live of course. You can boot from the
CD (or even a backup copy of the CD) and use it that way. Although I am
not a real big fan of ATI. As they had that problem restoring from some
USB drives for many years. And I generally prefer Paragon over ATI most
of the time.