Disk Label and Photographic Print scratching and smearing

[cmashieldscapting]

So I needed some enlargements right away of 35 mm film pictures, all on
negatives, some on photo CDs, some not. I have two printers supposed
to be superior for photography, an Epson Stylus Photo RX500 and a Canon
Pixma ip 5200 I just bought (after extensive questioning here)
http://groups.google.com/group/alt....ad/6ee9f0107aa83b7c/cd35079bd72a38dd?lnk=st&q
for the purpose of printing directly to disks, to make a better-looking
product than plain Sharpie-scrawled disks and quicker and
better-looking than Lightscribe disks.

Usually if I want enlargements I just go to Wal-Mart or Rite Aid. But
Wal-Mart's negative scanner was busted so they could do only digital
prints, and I'd brought only the negatives, not the CDs, with me, and
the Rite-Aid guy said I "might get the pictures by the middle of the
day tomorrow...or not." I needed them right away and didn't have time
to learn iPhoto or however it is you manage and print out photos from a
Mac, so appealed to a friend who's done a lot of this. My friend had a
lot of trouble with his negative scanner, but seemed to have no problem
with the printer. Some of the pictures looked almost as good as
Wal-Mart's, some better, some not as good.

By the time I got them home and mounted, EVERY SINGLE ONE was
scratched, from mildly to severely, just from regular handling! One
also had a fingerprint. The handling was extremely careful and MILD
compared to the abuse a Wal-Mart print will take! I am talking not,
they can be scratched with a fingernail, but the merest BRUSH with a
fingernail took the color right off!

So my questions are:

1. Is this "to be expected" in all such cases? That is, are the
products of all photo printers this cheap, or did my friend do
something wrong? (Sorry, I don't know his brand of printer but
*assumed* that because his Mac was bigger, better, and did more
state-of-the-art things than mine, that his printer would be
professional grade--I can ask. I also don't know the brand of paper
but it looked like nice, probably matte, photo paper.)

2. Can I expect the same from the picture CDs I plan to make?

3. If so, is there any way to prevent it?

I will be in no way ready to print picture CDs anytime soon. First I
have to edit massive amounts of footage and then format to burn it to
DVD. When finished, I don't want a product that's going to come off
all over a user's hands the first time they pick up the disk! Is there
any fixative or other product or process to use during or after
applying the picture to the disk, to prevent such sad consequences?

As always, thanks for any help or advice.

Cori

 

[zakezuke]

I will be in no way ready to print picture CDs anytime soon. First I
have to edit massive amounts of footage and then format to burn it to
DVD. When finished, I don't want a product that's going to come off
all over a user's hands the first time they pick up the disk! Is there
any fixative or other product or process to use during or after
applying the picture to the disk, to prevent such sad consequences?

As always, thanks for any help or advice.

I'm distracted with other things at the moment, but I have some
experence in this area... ask for more detail as needed.

You may wish to share the media you are having problems with.

I personaly have been spraying my discs with a fixative, an acrylic
fixative. Krylon UV.... there are two brands one can buy, each with
there own properties. You can find the stuff at "the paper zone" any
art supply store either next to the fine art supplies or next to the
craft art supplies, and a few other stores. I have "thus far"
experenced excelent results results... though mild orange peal. I use
the washers that come with the disc to avoid painting the center hole,
and an old unused cake stack.

AVOID poly-urathane like the polyurethane like the plage, this will
corrupt your data.

But I can't honestly say I've experenced the same problem as you, not
with verbatium discs, not with TDK print on disc, not with memorex or a
few others.

 

[Oldus Fartus]

By the time I got them home and mounted, EVERY SINGLE ONE was
scratched, from mildly to severely, just from regular handling! One
also had a fingerprint. The handling was extremely careful and MILD
compared to the abuse a Wal-Mart print will take! I am talking not,
they can be scratched with a fingernail, but the merest BRUSH with a
fingernail took the color right off!

So my questions are:

1. Is this "to be expected" in all such cases? That is, are the
products of all photo printers this cheap, or did my friend do
something wrong? (Sorry, I don't know his brand of printer but
*assumed* that because his Mac was bigger, better, and did more
state-of-the-art things than mine, that his printer would be
professional grade--I can ask. I also don't know the brand of paper
but it looked like nice, probably matte, photo paper.)

2. Can I expect the same from the picture CDs I plan to make?

3. If so, is there any way to prevent it?

I will be in no way ready to print picture CDs anytime soon. First I
have to edit massive amounts of footage and then format to burn it to
DVD. When finished, I don't want a product that's going to come off
all over a user's hands the first time they pick up the disk! Is there
any fixative or other product or process to use during or after
applying the picture to the disk, to prevent such sad consequences?

As always, thanks for any help or advice.

Cori

Because printers use a wet process, it is important to allow drying
time, otherwise the results will be as you have seen. For my DVD covers
I tend to use HP Semi-glass paper which gives good print quality and
quick drying. About an hour after printing, I trim and insert them
into the cover. Some papers I have used seem to be still wet the next
day, these are mainly the full gloss papers.

With discs I have had no problems using mainly TDK or Verbatim, but I
still avoid touching the surface as long as possible. To date I have
never seen the problems you have experienced.

 

[Malcolm]

So I needed some enlargements right away of 35 mm film pictures, all on
negatives, some on photo CDs, some not. I have two printers supposed
to be superior for photography, an Epson Stylus Photo RX500 and a Canon
Pixma ip 5200 I just bought (after extensive questioning here)
http://groups.google.com/group/alt....ad/6ee9f0107aa83b7c/cd35079bd72a38dd?lnk=st&q for

the purpose of printing directly to disks, to make a better-looking
product than plain Sharpie-scrawled disks and quicker and
better-looking than Lightscribe disks.

Usually if I want enlargements I just go to Wal-Mart or Rite Aid. But
Wal-Mart's negative scanner was busted so they could do only digital
prints, and I'd brought only the negatives, not the CDs, with me, and
the Rite-Aid guy said I "might get the pictures by the middle of the
day tomorrow...or not." I needed them right away and didn't have time
to learn iPhoto or however it is you manage and print out photos from a
Mac, so appealed to a friend who's done a lot of this. My friend had a
lot of trouble with his negative scanner, but seemed to have no problem
with the printer. Some of the pictures looked almost as good as
Wal-Mart's, some better, some not as good.

By the time I got them home and mounted, EVERY SINGLE ONE was
scratched, from mildly to severely, just from regular handling! One
also had a fingerprint. The handling was extremely careful and MILD
compared to the abuse a Wal-Mart print will take! I am talking not,
they can be scratched with a fingernail, but the merest BRUSH with a
fingernail took the color right off!

So my questions are:

1. Is this "to be expected" in all such cases? That is, are the
products of all photo printers this cheap, or did my friend do
something wrong? (Sorry, I don't know his brand of printer but
*assumed* that because his Mac was bigger, better, and did more
state-of-the-art things than mine, that his printer would be
professional grade--I can ask. I also don't know the brand of paper
but it looked like nice, probably matte, photo paper.)

2. Can I expect the same from the picture CDs I plan to make?

3. If so, is there any way to prevent it?

I will be in no way ready to print picture CDs anytime soon. First I
have to edit massive amounts of footage and then format to burn it to
DVD. When finished, I don't want a product that's going to come off
all over a user's hands the first time they pick up the disk! Is there
any fixative or other product or process to use during or after
applying the picture to the disk, to prevent such sad consequences?

As always, thanks for any help or advice.

Cori

Inkjet prints on glossy paper, and especially disks, need a lot of
drying time. The Epson printer I looked at, recommended 24 hours
before handling a disk after printing. A hair dryer at low speed could
help. Hold the disk in your hand while drying it. That way you will
know if it gets too hot. Be sure the ink is dry before applying any
coating, or it will never dry properly.

 

[cmashieldscapting]

So perhaps not allowing enough drying time before handling was what
happened with the photographs? I guess I could check and see if they
still scratch like that the next day, to indicate whether there was
anything really wrong with them. Some that another friend made for me
had all the properties of regular photographs--just as glossy and no
tendency to scratch--and I had expected these to be the same.

Cori

 

[cmashieldscapting]

So perhaps not allowing enough drying time before handling was what
happened with the photographs? I guess I could check and see if they
still scratch like that the next day, to indicate whether there was
anything really wrong with them. Some that another friend made for me
had all the properties of regular photographs--just as glossy and no
tendency to scratch--and I had expected these to be the same.

Cori

Okay, I talked to my friend and he said he forgot to warn me to wait
"at least an hour" before handling but I KNOW it was more than an hour.
I had the pictures home around 3:00, and didn't do any serious
handling or notice any serious scratching till at least around
6:00--then one got scratched AFTER I put them in the bag to take over
which was 7:30--a good FIVE hours after printing! So he is going to
try printing again today--a couple of the pictures I wasn't entirely
happy with the color balance anyway--and call me and we'll work
something out. Would it help to bring one of those waxed paper
envelopes, in which the Post Office sells stamps, in which to carry
each picture home, then lay them out and not touch them till tomorrow?

Cori

 

[Ken Maltby]

Okay, I talked to my friend and he said he forgot to warn me to wait
"at least an hour" before handling but I KNOW it was more than an hour.
I had the pictures home around 3:00, and didn't do any serious
handling or notice any serious scratching till at least around
6:00--then one got scratched AFTER I put them in the bag to take over
which was 7:30--a good FIVE hours after printing! So he is going to
try printing again today--a couple of the pictures I wasn't entirely
happy with the color balance anyway--and call me and we'll work
something out. Would it help to bring one of those waxed paper
envelopes, in which the Post Office sells stamps, in which to carry
each picture home, then lay them out and not touch them till tomorrow?

Cori

The basic factors involved are;

The size of the ink drops (the smaller the quicker it can set)

The paper's finish ( different makers, even for a finish
with the same name)

The ink

Finding the right combination of paper(s) and ink(s) can take
some trial and error. If you have Computer Shows in your
area, they often have specialty paper and ink suppliers, selling
their wares, and they can often point out what works with the
different printer models.

Luck;
Ken

 

[cmashieldscapting]

The basic factors involved are;

The size of the ink drops (the smaller the quicker it can set)

The paper's finish ( different makers, even for a finish
with the same name)

The ink

Finding the right combination of paper(s) and ink(s) can take
some trial and error. If you have Computer Shows in your
area, they often have specialty paper and ink suppliers, selling
their wares, and they can often point out what works with the
different printer models.

Luck;
Ken

Thanks, Ken! My friend is agreeable to reprinting those of the
pictures I felt really needed it. Some of the prints made yesterday
are now able to stand having dust flicked off with a fingernail just
fine, while others still scratch at the touch of a fingernail. I'll
let my friend know in case he wants to switch types of papers.

Cori

 

[Fenrir Enterprises]

By the time I got them home and mounted, EVERY SINGLE ONE was
scratched, from mildly to severely, just from regular handling! One
also had a fingerprint. The handling was extremely careful and MILD
compared to the abuse a Wal-Mart print will take! I am talking not,
they can be scratched with a fingernail, but the merest BRUSH with a
fingernail took the color right off!

<snip>

As always, thanks for any help or advice.

Cori

I don't know if I just missed reading it, but so far in this thread, I
haven't seen you mention which paper you used? Canon? Another
printer's brand (this tends to work really badly, though I've heard
there are a few combinations that work better than the printer brand
paper). Store brand? Kodak (I have had very little luck with Kodak
papers)?

The prints from my Epson R340 onto Epson Ultra Premium Glossy paper
are dry and reasonably scratch resistant within minutes of printing
(you should still give them a day to dry before putting in an album or
under glass). The same went for my ancient Canon BJC-4300. I haven't
had much experience with photos in my C88+ pigment printer, but the CD
covers I've made are pretty damage and moisture resistant.

--

http://www.FenrirOnline.com

Computer services, custom metal etching,
arts, crafts, and much more.

 

[cmashieldscapting]

I don't know if I just missed reading it, but so far in this thread, I
haven't seen you mention which paper you used?

I don't know what kind my friend used or whether he planned to use
another kind the next time.

I haven't
had much experience with photos in my C88+ pigment printer, but the CD
covers I've made are pretty damage and moisture resistant.

I plan to print not only CD covers (more like folded inserts with a
cover picture on one side and contents on other sides) but also
pictures on CDs and DVDs, using white printable disks and a printer
equipped to handle them. I think some of these printers also print a
clear sealant on as well but I'm pretty sure the one I bought (Canon
PIXMA ip 5200) is not one of them. I was asking whether to expect
scratching, smearing, and scuffing on the disks, and what to do to
prevent it. Someone recommended a non-polyurethane fixative available
in a crafts store.

Cori

 

[Fenrir Enterprises]

I don't know what kind my friend used or whether he planned to use
another kind the next time.

I suspect the biggest issue was the paper used - usually the biggest
problem I see with inkjet prints is smearing due to long drying time
and/or someone with damp fingers. I've only had scratching issues with
laser printers (toner flakes off of some glossy papers that were
designed for laser printing - depends on the printer model)

I plan to print not only CD covers (more like folded inserts with a
cover picture on one side and contents on other sides) but also
pictures on CDs and DVDs, using white printable disks and a printer
equipped to handle them. I think some of these printers also print a
clear sealant on as well but I'm pretty sure the one I bought (Canon
PIXMA ip 5200) is not one of them. I was asking whether to expect
scratching, smearing, and scuffing on the disks, and what to do to
prevent it. Someone recommended a non-polyurethane fixative available
in a crafts store.

Cori

I have an R340 for direct CD/DVD printing but it is definitely /not/
moisture resistant (i.e. don't drink an iced coffee then pick up the
disc). It is a dyebased printer, as is the IP5200. The first pigment
printer that works on CD/DVDs is the Epson R800 (the R1800 does as
well, not sure about the R2400). The clear coat that they use is
simply to make the prints glossier - it does not really afford any
extra protection. I've considered using a sealant on the discs, but am
very wary of it, as I do not know if it would eventually start flaking
off and wreck the CD player (or in the case of a car player, be
affected by the intense heat it endures and/or generates - my car
player would always make CDs very hot). I'm more inclined to buy an
R200 or similar model on clearance and experiment with using pigment
ink refills in it. The C88 won't print on CDs.

--

http://www.FenrirOnline.com

Computer services, custom metal etching,
arts, crafts, and much more.

 

[Paul Heslop]

I have an R340 for direct CD/DVD printing but it is definitely /not/
moisture resistant (i.e. don't drink an iced coffee then pick up the
disc). It is a dyebased printer, as is the IP5200. The first pigment
printer that works on CD/DVDs is the Epson R800 (the R1800 does as
well, not sure about the R2400). The clear coat that they use is
simply to make the prints glossier - it does not really afford any
extra protection. I've considered using a sealant on the discs, but am
very wary of it, as I do not know if it would eventually start flaking
off and wreck the CD player (or in the case of a car player, be
affected by the intense heat it endures and/or generates - my car
player would always make CDs very hot). I'm more inclined to buy an
R200 or similar model on clearance and experiment with using pigment
ink refills in it. The C88 won't print on CDs.

--

http://www.FenrirOnline.com

Computer services, custom metal etching,
arts, crafts, and much more.

another thing to remember is there are printable discs and there are
printable discs. There are the full face and not and then there are
the ones which are supposedly fully face but have either some marking
or a visible ring near the center which affects print quality. Then
there is the white surface itself. I have a batch of cd-r, I think
they're Titanium, the surface of which is not quite the mat stuff,
rather a slightly tacky feeling glossier surface which feels weird
when printed on and seemingly takes longer to dry too, I find myself
waiting at least a day before allowing my fingers anywhere near the
printed surface.

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Sorry to hear about your difficulty with some home printed inkjet prints.

You raise a good question. Unfortunately, the answer is... it depends.

The combination of paper and ink type can be critical to durability of
the finished image. This can include issues of fade resistance, scratch
resistance, water resistance, fingerprint resistance, etc.

In general, dye inks are less prone to scratches because they go further
into the paper surface, while pigment inks tend to sit on top and
therefore can be more vulnerable to surface damage. Pigment inks,
however, tend to be more water and fade resistant.

Paper brands can have differing characteristics, as well. Some of the
fine art papers which are coated for inkjet use can be fairly fragile.

Lastly, in general, if the printed image can be allowed to sit
undisturbed for several days to a week, the image will "set" better
making it harder and less likely to be damaged by handling. This is
particularly true with pigment inks on microporous papers, and dye inks
on swellable polymer papers, which an remain tacky for several days,
especially in higher humidity areas.

Some papers and inks will tolerate a fixative spray on the surface.
Again, experimentation is key.

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Yes, giving them more drying time will often help, but again ink and
paper combinations can be significant.

Can you find out which inks, which brand printer, and which type of
paper were used, that may help.

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

The type of envelope you speak of from the post office is not wax, but
"glassine" which is a specially treated paper, which is actually
potentially more abrasive.

I would suggest just placing a reasonably smooth bond paper between the
prints, and try not to slide them around during transport. If possible,
give them a few days to dry, with either the bond paper on them or
nothing. Do not place them in plastic during that period.

Again, certain inks and papers are not compatible.

Art

 

[Gene E. Bloch]

(e-mail address removed) wrote in @i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

Thanks, Ken! My friend is agreeable to reprinting those of the
pictures I felt really needed it. Some of the prints made yesterday
are now able to stand having dust flicked off with a fingernail just
fine, while others still scratch at the touch of a fingernail. I'll
let my friend know in case he wants to switch types of papers.

Cori

Where did you get the idea that a fingernail is a suitable tool to
flick dust off of prints???

 

[cmashieldscapting]

Lastly, in general, if the printed image can be allowed to sit

undisturbed for several days to a week, the image will "set" better
making it harder and less likely to be damaged by handling.

Art

Same with when a car, or just about anything else, is painted. The
longer the setting/drying time, the better. If anyone has a Canon
PIXMA ip-5200 or similar, which kinds of printable disks yielded the
best results both in terms of printability and disk burnability?
Thanks for all the answers!

Cori

 

[Oldus Fartus]

Same with when a car, or just about anything else, is painted. The
longer the setting/drying time, the better. If anyone has a Canon
PIXMA ip-5200 or similar, which kinds of printable disks yielded the
best results both in terms of printability and disk burnability?
Thanks for all the answers!

Cori

I have both Epson and Canon CD/DVD printers, and best printable discs in
my experience are TDK and Verbatim.

 

[Fenrir Enterprises]

I have both Epson and Canon CD/DVD printers, and best printable discs in
my experience are TDK and Verbatim.

I have massive amounts of Verbatim White Printable DVD-Rs and Silver
Printable CD-Rs. I like how they print, but I've seen a lot of posts
on other groups lately about how they're not very good quality (these
posts always seem to be from people who think that Taiyo Yuden is the
only media brand worth buying, ever). Personally, I've never had a
problem with any of them - I always had failures with Memorex or
generic DVDs but never with a Verbatim. I just wish I could find
Verbatim White Printable CDs (locally, anyway). I have Memorex CDs for
white surface printing, but I think the Verbatims print slightly
better.

--

http://www.FenrirOnline.com

Computer services, custom metal etching,
arts, crafts, and much more.

 

[cmashieldscapting]

I just wish I could find
Verbatim White Printable CDs (locally, anyway). I have Memorex CDs for
white surface printing, but I think the Verbatims print slightly
better.

I'm not counting on being able to find anything I can just go in and
buy, but to purchase online. Two of the best-looking recommended
places were meritline.com and newegg.com and I am welcome to
suggestions of others. It means buying things sight unseen, without
being able to even talk to a clerk about different options and
properties, so I'm asking lots of advice of others' experiences ahead
of time.

Cori