Discussion: Gotta ask

[Adam Albright]

If, you are updating to Vista, not just buying a Vista installed computer,
you already know why you're upgrading. You relish the challenge. For you,
the computer isn't just a tool for balancing a checkbook, writing letters
and working with pics, vids and music. If I don't do at least a dozen clean
installs/year on my machine, I'm not using the computer.

And, some people just aren't capable of maintaining a computer. For them
any upgrade is beyond rocket science.

Sorry, but in my experience people that constantly repeat "clean"
installs then toot their own horn pretending to be a "experienced
Windows Guru" aren't very computer literate in my opinion since in
effect they simply admit they have to start from scratch over and
over. You do it every month? <giggle>

You simply don't understand you computer hardware, software and
obviously nothing about tweaking the Windows Registry or other finer
points. Last time I did a "clean" install Clinton was still president.

 

[Kerry Brown]

I don't follow the typical MVP excuse making for Microsoft. In case
you haven't noticed it totally blows any creditability you might
otherwise have.

I'm not making excuses. I asked a question which despite your long tirade
you haven't answered. Maybe because you can't?

Your answer seems to be stop "picking" on Microsoft, everybody else
screws up too. That's hardly a technical reason or justification for
the world's largest software developer to constantly keep dumping
buggy versions of Windows on the public. It has been 20 years since
Windows has been around, Vista has been in development for at least 5
years and STILL there are major problems. If you call that acceptable
business practice or need to use the feeble and childish excuse so
what, all new versions of operating systems are like that (they're
not) you have my sympathy.

Again, I'll ask another question. Which current OS or for that matter major
software application doesn't have bugs and a program of supplying updates to
fix them. It is the nature of programming. Some are certainly better than
others at both having less bugs and at fixing them. I find Microsoft
somewhere in the middle in this regard.

I don't consider Vista a major upgrade. Its just another version of
Windows with a new prettier face. Under to hood, same old clunky
Windows. For example the issue I detailed yesterday in another thread.

I can only come to one of two conclusions from this statement. One - you are
purposely misstating things to make a point. or Two - You really have no
idea what you are talking about. Vista is a major rewrite of Windows with
many fundamental differences under the hood. If it wasn't why is it taking
so long for manufacturer's to develop drivers? Why are some security vendors
crying the blues?

Vista has a audio driver already installed, yet attempts to play a
multimedia file, says it can't, it suggests I let it go out to the web
to find another copy of the same thing that's already on my system,
that Windows itself installed and is part of the Vista DVD. Then
Windows as dumb as it has always been still refuses to play the file
while every other player I have on the system is able to use the same
driver to successfully play the file. The irony is I'm talking about a
Microsoft produced driver. Now I ask you, how dumb is it for other
software on my system to use a Microsoft driver to play a file that
Windows itself can't?

Are you talking about a driver or a codec? The whole media subsystem is
different (see above about major upgrades).

If such things still are part of Windows (they are) and this problem
isn't new, and there are many, many problems like this still
unresolved, then you got to wonder who at Microsoft is watching the
store and spending hundreds of millions of dollars to develop a "new"
Windows when still there are so many still unfixed and broken issues
that keep getting carried forward to each new Windows version.

Care to explain or make up another excuse why we should accept this?

Again, I'll ask. Please tell me where this is done any better. Are you
saying Microsoft should stop all development, ignore all the new hardware
and technology changes, and not release anything until it is 100% tested
foolproof against any possible bug, exploit, whatever, and oh yeah by the
way it should work exactly how I want it to and to heck with everyone else?
There is no product like that. Everything is a compromise. Personally I
think Vista is a pretty good compromise. Obviously we disagree on this. I do
think you need to take your blinders off and look at the world from a more
open perspective but I realize that for some people that is hard to do.

You seem to have a very negative attitude about MVPs. Most MVPs neither
asked for or even worked at getting the award. Most of them that I know
personally can be very critical of Microsoft at times. It is an award for
voluntarily helping in public communities. Because Microsoft is giving out
this award they are biased to give it people who help in their community not
some one else's. That's pretty normal. I include the fact that I'm an MVP in
my signature because I have the integrity to let people know that I may be
biased towards Microsoft products. I like to think I'm not but I also know
human nature well enough to know that I can't help but be better disposed
towards someone who gives me something. This is a long winded way of saying
don't paint all MVPs with the same brush. We all have different reasons for
being MVPs and many are actually embarrassed to be MVPs because they feel it
may cloud their objectivity, which I believe is something you are lacking.

 

[Dale \Mad_Murdock\ White]

If, you are updating to Vista, not just buying a Vista installed computer,
you already know why you're upgrading. You relish the challenge. For
you, the computer isn't just a tool for balancing a checkbook, writing
letters and working with pics, vids and music. If I don't do at least a
dozen clean installs/year on my machine, I'm not using the computer.

And, some people just aren't capable of maintaining a computer. For them
any upgrade is beyond rocket science.

But that's not true. I've been asked by several people, Should I upgrade to
Vista ? I asked why they wanted to and the answer was.."Because it just came
out" "it's new", "It looks cool". Look over in the general forum and you
can see a number of people who dove head first into Vista without really
understanding what was happening or should I say, going to happen. On the
flip side, I work with a technical group of people and the majority are
going to avoid vista as long as possible.

A monthly re-install is a bit radical, though I admit back in the win95\98
days. It was easier for me to format and re-install over spending the time
and energy to figure out what the problem was. Now, I only format and
re-install once a year at most, and that's normally because I've bought a
new motherboard or I've mucked around with the system so much that a clean
install is about the only fix. But even then, I've become old and lazy and I
ghost the machine monthly. Format-re-installs just aren't the fun they use
to be.

 

[Adam Albright]

I can only come to one of two conclusions from this statement. One - you are
purposely misstating things to make a point. or Two - You really have no
idea what you are talking about. Vista is a major rewrite of Windows with
many fundamental differences under the hood. If it wasn't why is it taking
so long for manufacturer's to develop drivers? Why are some security vendors
crying the blues?

I'm kind of funny in that I expect known errors in previous versions
of Windows should be expected to be FIXED in the latest version,
especially if you keep insisiting that Vista is suppose to be a "major
upgrade". It is very easy to dance all around this perennial issue.
The default positon of so many Microsoft apologists and admit it or
not, there are many here is to do exactly that.

Again, I'll ask.

Please tell me where this is done any better.

Again with the same excuses you mean.

Are you saying Microsoft should stop all development, ignore all the new hardware
and technology changes, and not release anything until it is 100% tested
foolproof against any possible bug, exploit, whatever, and oh yeah by the
way it should work exactly how I want it to and to heck with everyone else?

Did I say that? I pointed out that Windows is so utterly stupid it
can't find a codec/driver of its own copyright already on my system
and because of it be unable to play the audio portion of a common file
format that other software, some totally free, IS capable of playing.
I just LOVE to watch Microsoft apologists make excuses why it
shouldn't have to.

Worse, I pointed out more boneheaded blunders such as the following:

If Vista was uable to "see" my SATA drives in IDE mode and bring up
the appropriate "new hardware found" "installing" message when such a
drive is "plugged in" as a external device if I then reboot and change
setting in BIOS, (there are many possible combinations, depending on
how the primary IDE channel is set and 3 other lines elsewhere in BIOS
than only effect the SATA channels) in one configuration not only will
Vista refuse to "see" a SATA drive the BIOS reports both by displaying
the appropriate copyright notice for such drives, but also showing the
drive size and channnel they are on. Next Vista attempts but fails to
load the driver, and worse refuses to allow me to remove the line in
Device Manager where Vista next dumbly keeps adding more and more
instances of IDE channels I don't have. This particular MB has a
single IDE channel (one master/slave combination). Device Manger
thinks it has 3 pair. How cute. Frustrating, since Windows refuses to
allow to remove the extra two phantoms no matter what I do.

Yep, I would say that is a Windows problem is additon perhaps to a
driver issue. Since these SATA drives DID work correctly in both IDE
and SATA mode as well as in RAID configuration under XP.

Still worse this very same drive which is a Seagate SATA now doesn't
run at all in even IDE mode unless I set it to USB 2.0 instead of its
much faster and native SATA mode.

Again, if you can admit it or not these are obviously operating system
errors. If I plug in a device that did work under Vista and now no
longer does using its SATA interface configured as a miminal IDE
interface which is a BIOS option, again the blame goes to Microsoft if
one day it "sees it" then next day it can't in spite of the setting
being exactly the same now as when it did see this drive.

What is probably happening here is Vista is too dumb to pick the
correct driver and tries to either load the wrong version (SATA) or
now just ignores the IDE driver having already determined its a SATA
drive. I haven't bothered to look further or cleaned up after Vista,
but you see truly REALLY experienced users like myself understand
these problems for what they are...sloppy programming on Microsoft's
part.

 

[Kerry Brown]

Another tirade, but still no answer to my question.

 

[Richard Urban]

He's just a **TROLL** Kerry!

But he is finally differentiating between driver and codec. Being a
programmer (ha, in his dreams!) he should have known that from the
beginning.

--


Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Quote from George Ankner:
If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!

 

[Kerry Brown]

Sometimes it's fun to bait the trolls.

 

[Adam Albright]

Sometimes it's fun to bait the trolls.

Troll? You mean trolls know more than MVP's

Yep, I guess. ROTFLMAO!

 

[Sinner]

Sorry, but in my experience people that constantly repeat "clean"
installs then toot their own horn pretending to be a "experienced
Windows Guru" aren't very computer literate in my opinion since in
effect they simply admit they have to start from scratch over and
over. You do it every month? <giggle>

You simply don't understand you computer hardware, software and
obviously nothing about tweaking the Windows Registry or other finer
points. Last time I did a "clean" install Clinton was still president.

And in my experience, the only people that don't make mistakes are those
that don't do anything. I'm not a computer guru, I'm a computer
experimenter. I play with my computer, not on it. I download, install and
uninstall software, of varying uses, very frequently.

Fortunately, I also know how to prevent you smugness from gracing my
computer again

 

[Adam Albright]

And in my experience, the only people that don't make mistakes are those
that don't do anything. I'm not a computer guru, I'm a computer
experimenter. I play with my computer, not on it. I download, install and
uninstall software, of varying uses, very frequently.

Fortunately, I also know how to prevent you smugness from gracing my
computer again

Refreshing admission on your part... you "play" with your computer.
Wouldn't you be happier with a Mac then?

Some people actually use their computer for work. Imagine that!

 

[Kerry Brown]

Still no answer to my question.

 

[Dale \Mad_Murdock\ White]

Well, looks like the Mac isn't impervious to startup failures, So I guess it
can't be Apple's OSX 10.4

http://www.macfixit.com

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2006/12/january_2007_month_of_apple_bu.html

Does those .1 .2 and .3 releases count the same as service packs ? if so
they are up to #8 and it's 208MB

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=301984

 

[DJ Bjorklund]

logically it seems that persons who participate

Some assumption!

People who are best equipped with the latest hardware and drivers do not
come to these newsgroups as their computers are functioning without any
troublesome problems.

Point taken Richard, but I'd still wager that the people who
potentially are most likely to have most problems,...don't even know
that public newsgroups exist much less how to use one.

As much as I'd like it to be otherwise, we, the PC using community
will be OS challenged until these things are as simple to operate as
TVs, with the OS updated and improved <gasp!> without our notice.

I'd hoped we'd be closer by now, but jeez, the folks still have to
know what eff-ing hardware 'drivers' are, AND be responsible for their
upkeep. Gates and his company still have a LONG way to, not to
mention ton after ton of ching to make!

But, all that being said, I'm still interested in participating. And
don't they say that if the IC engine were improved at the same rate as
computers, they'd be running on anti-matter or the like, and Apollo 13
had about 1/3 of the computing power of the P4 box under my desk. The
progress made is pretty mind blowing.

 

[Adam Albright]

Still no answer to my question.

You're dumber then the Mac trolls and a bigger crybaby.

Geez man, grow up. You and a few other MVP's have been having a hissy
fit all day long, all because I dare to give some specifics about
things that are still broken in Windows, like they have been for
years. Just accept I and many other people know a lot more than you
pretend to know about Windows in general and certain technological
computer related topics in particular and just move on. That would be
the adult thing for you to do. It seems you prefer to continue to act
like a spoiled six year old having a temper tantrum.

Somebody asked me earlier why I don't care much for MVP's. You and a
couple few clowns epitomize why that's so. You spoil it for the decent
MVP's that give freely of their time purely to help people. You and a
few others obviously hang out here to give your bloated ego a much
needed daily massage. I pity you for being so self-absorbed. The irony
of course is in reality you don't know nearly as much as you think you
do which is becoming more obvious which each post you make.

 

[Kerry Brown]

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/securityfix/2006/12/january_2007_month_of_apple_bu.html

The comments to the blog are hilarious. Change Mac for Vista and it reads
like many of the threads here. Zealots about anything are almost always
wrong and and seem to throw logic out the window as a matter of course.

Thanks for the link, very entertaining.

 

[Kerry Brown]

You're dumber then the Mac trolls and a bigger crybaby.

Geez man, grow up. You and a few other MVP's have been having a hissy
fit all day long, all because I dare to give some specifics about
things that are still broken in Windows, like they have been for
years. Just accept I and many other people know a lot more than you
pretend to know about Windows in general and certain technological
computer related topics in particular and just move on. That would be
the adult thing for you to do. It seems you prefer to continue to act
like a spoiled six year old having a temper tantrum.

Somebody asked me earlier why I don't care much for MVP's. You and a
couple few clowns epitomize why that's so. You spoil it for the decent
MVP's that give freely of their time purely to help people. You and a
few others obviously hang out here to give your bloated ego a much
needed daily massage. I pity you for being so self-absorbed. The irony
of course is in reality you don't know nearly as much as you think you
do which is becoming more obvious which each post you make.

Do you know the answer?