Dell sued over bait & switch advertising

[George Macdonald]

A few years ago, I was working for Chevron when they entered into an
agreement to buy 30,000 (yes, thirty-thousand) desktop systems from
HP. All of the systems were the same, and HP agreed as part of the
contract to make them EXACTLY the same. It took the best part of one
full year to roll out all of the new desktops, and the last system
delivered cost exactly the same as the first one -- imagine how much
the prices would have declined over the cost of a year, if not locked
in. However, the way Chevron management had it figured, the desktop
systems were going to last for 3 years, and the cost of support was
$300 per month, so the initial hardware costs were insignificant
compared to the support costs.

Happy day for HP and their sales guy. I *know* that there are people at
Chevron who enjoy performance jumps and that kind of policy, if enforced
globally, would kinda leave them in the lurch... maybe they get exceptions?
It would seem grossly myopic, IMO, to provide your average
memo-writer/spread-sheet jockey with the same hardware as the guy who's
planning the future of the company with a seismic analysis or a 10K row LP
model!

If you look at where we were a year ago and how far we've come, the
performance has just leapt ahead: with AMD, e.g., we've got commodity mbrds
which take Athlon64s, which are also freely available... and the A64s
themselves have gone from socket 754 to 939 (i.e. single to dual channel
memory), with a reduction in design metrics which *has* reduced (as opposed
to Intel) temperatures considerably on similar CPU performance. I can
hammer my Athlon64 3500+ 90nm all day and it runs at 52C or so.

And this $300 a month support cost was already taking into account the
savings associated with every desktop being EXACTLY the same, and the
only real support you got was, "You've got a problem, we'll re-image
your PC."

Yeah well that kind of "support" tends to breed users who are creative or
err, meddlers.

 

[George Macdonald]

I strongly urge people to avoid local system builders (unless they have
solid recommendations or they are qualified to evaluate the system builder).
I have heard too many stories and had too many experiences with incompetent
installation, rushed installation, incompatible parts, substandard parts,
overpricing, bait and switch, and so on.

Well I wouldn't recommend the Yellow Pages blind pin approach.

 

[David Schwartz]

If you recommend against the little guys, and don't recommend the big
guys, who is left? Surely you're not suggesting people who aren't
competent to judge the system builder should build their own?

There are lots of other options.

For example, you could hire someone to evaluate your needs and hire a
system builder for you. Ideally, this person would be paid a fixed price, so
he has no incentive to sell you things you don't need or allow the system
builder to give you inferior parts.

There are, of course, also medium-sized companies.

DS

 

[Tony Hill]

I strongly urge people to avoid local system builders (unless they have
solid recommendations or they are qualified to evaluate the system builder).
I have heard too many stories and had too many experiences with incompetent
installation, rushed installation, incompatible parts, substandard parts,
overpricing, bait and switch, and so on.

[..../]

Dell Irony Meter

(yeah - *none* of that ever happens with the Big Guys ;-)

While Dell, HPaq and the like aren't exactly top-notch quality, I've
seen WAY worse sketchiness from the small local vendors. A *GOOD*
small local vendor can set you up with a very good PC, but there are
plenty of REALLY shady characters running PC shops and it's often hard
to pick out the good from the bad, particularly for those who don't
already know exactly what they're after.

With Dell you just get fairly consistently average setups with an
average amount of problems. They're definitely not using
top-of-the-line parts by any stretch, but at least they aren't using
some PC Chips motherboard or the like, and you know that they have at
least booted a system with your exact configuration once or twice in a
lab before sending it. The same is often not true for some of the
small-time local guys.

 

[Tony Hill]

If you buy all 10, 20, 40 or whatever at exactly the same time sure but
even a few months apart or a slightly different model and you *could* need
different HD diags, different video drivers, different BIOS and even
different chipset .INFs, etc. etc.. Things move quickly and I see this
with even the few Thinkpads we have.

That's one of the reasons why you stick with the commercial systems
and not the consumer-grade crap. For example, HP only JUST
discontinued their d530 models, nearly 2 years after they were first
released. In fact, I think you can still buy them, though they're no
longer producing new ones. These systems used the exact same
motherboard with integrated video, sound and NIC drivers, nearly 2
years after they were first introduced. If you buy a new dc7100
system today you will still be able to buy more a year from now with
the exact same config.

Same goes for Dell and their Optiplex line. Yes you pay a bit more
money for these systems, but they will tend to save on support costs
in the long run, especially for larger businesses. Of course, there
are also MANY other reasons to stick with the commercial-grade
systems, even if the quality of performance of these systems might not
differ much from the consumer stuff. If nothing else you at least
tend to get support that's been outsourced up here to the Great White
North instead of support that's been outsourced to India or the
Philippines.

 

[Tony Hill]

Yeah, I still remember my first (legal) beer. Oh, wait! You said 20
years. ;-) Hey! I'm still 34! Hey Tony, catching up yet? ;-)

Nope, I'm still a teenager by you're way of counting... <shudder> I
REALLY don't like you're way of counting... It might have been fun to
be a teenager at one time, but definitely not anymore!

Sure. What about those with the hardware setting on the hard disk? The
PS/2s at least had configuration floppys that could be saved.

Ugg, don't even get me started about the early Compaq Deskpro systems
and their BIOS-on-hard-disk. If you want a REAL pain in the ass, that
was it!

 

[keith]

Nope, I'm still a teenager by you're way of counting... <shudder> I
REALLY don't like you're way of counting... It might have been fun to
be a teenager at one time, but definitely not anymore!

Ok, you haven't caught up yet but trsut me, you'll see things differently
in a few short years. ;-)

Ugg, don't even get me started about the early Compaq Deskpro systems
and their BIOS-on-hard-disk. If you want a REAL pain in the ass, that
was it!

That was exactly what I was referring to. ...and people thought the
Microchannel was a PITA. Of course Microchannnel was designed for
business use (roll-outs by the thousands and where a couple of
transistors didn't matter), but the alternatives were *far* worse.

 

[keith]

There are 4 or 5 HankKits made from recycled free
machines sitting in the next room

Then why change now?

Have built dozens.

Then why...

Usually spend too much time and money doing so, compared
to a high end Dell or PowerSpec. Might do it again, since right
now Dell doesn't have what I want. The high end PowerSpec
is close, and priced just a tad under what I could do by building
one myself. Their service is good, couple of my relatives (including
my 90 year old mother) have them and are very pleased.

I've haven't found a system I wanted that I couldn't buy cheaper for
close to a dozen years. Yes, I tend to be pickey with some peripherals.

Don't recall every needing to call their support staff, the machines
"just work". All are XPS systems, newest is an 8200. It's my old
T550 that needs replacement (grin).

Alrighty then. YOu don't know what crap Dell service (and AFAIK, all the
others) has become. I believe it was GeorgeM a while ago recanting his
dealings with Dell's Indian connection on "desktop-class" systems.

Have replaced lots of parts in the Dells, always by choice. Better vid,
bigger disk, more ram, etc. Did lose one hard drive and had to replace
it, no big deal.

Power supplies? Motherboards?

So I was just curious which brand of already built plug it in it works
machine you might endorse.

For desktops? Were I rich or twenty years younger, an Apple G5. But
that's not what you meant, I trust. ;-) In fact I went with the Opteron
because it was (far) cheaper.

Laptops, nothing but a ThinkPad (or maybe PowerBook in a while).

 

[keith]

There are lots of other options.

For example, you could hire someone to evaluate your needs and hire a
system builder for you. Ideally, this person would be paid a fixed price, so
he has no incentive to sell you things you don't need or allow the system
builder to give you inferior parts.

There are, of course, also medium-sized companies.

Ok? Who?!

 

[Hank Oredson]

Then why change now?

Time, cost.
Doesn't matter if I screw up a junker, they are free.
Doesn't matter how long it takes to get one fixed if needed.

Then why...

Time, cost, warranty.
Doesn't matter if the junker breaks, just toss it and use another.

I've haven't found a system I wanted that I couldn't buy cheaper for
close to a dozen years. Yes, I tend to be pickey with some peripherals.


Alrighty then. YOu don't know what crap Dell service (and AFAIK, all the
others) has become. I believe it was GeorgeM a while ago recanting his
dealings with Dell's Indian connection on "desktop-class" systems.

Power supplies? Motherboards?

Never had one go bad.
Have had bad PS on home brew machines, bad out of the box.
Ditto motherboards, bad out of the box.

For desktops? Were I rich or twenty years younger, an Apple G5. But
that's not what you meant, I trust. ;-) In fact I went with the Opteron
because it was (far) cheaper.

x86 is a requirement, so no Apples.

Laptops, nothing but a ThinkPad (or maybe PowerBook in a while).

--

... Hank

http://home.earthlink.net/~horedson
http://home.earthlink.net/~w0rli

 

[David Schwartz]

Ok? Who?!

Grab any copy of any computer magazine and you will see dozens of ads
for computer systems made and sold by medium-sized companies.

DS

 

[David Schwartz]

Grab any copy of any computer magazine and you will see dozens of ads
for computer systems made and sold by medium-sized companies.

A few include MainPC, Globus, pcboost, American CompuTech, Portatech,
USA-PCCITY, United Micro, CableMart, and MILEGROUP. Note that these are not
endorsements. Some of these actually resell complete systems )sometimes with
customizations on things like memory, video card, hard drive, and so on)
made other companies such as Asus, Comet, Jungle, X Technology, and MGE.

DS

 

[Tony Hill]

Ok, you haven't caught up yet but trsut me, you'll see things differently
in a few short years. ;-)

Ask me again in another 5 years and I might agree, but not just yet!

That was exactly what I was referring to. ...and people thought the
Microchannel was a PITA. Of course Microchannnel was designed for
business use (roll-outs by the thousands and where a couple of
transistors didn't matter), but the alternatives were *far* worse.

The worst part about the Deskpro's is that they continued to use this
WELL after Microchannel had come and gone. In fact, it wasn't until
the Deskpro EN line (PII systems, first released in '97 or '98 I
think) that Compaq finally abandoned this crazy scheme.

The stupidest part about the whole thing was that it wasn't even the
BIOS data itself that was on the hard disk, that was still in firmware
on the motherboard. However the ONLY way to access it was using some
graphical program that either had to be a partition on a hard disk or
a set of 3 boot up floppies (which NEVER seemed to work right for me).
All just so that they could get a Windows 3.1-ish GUI frontend to the
BIOS. Compaq definitely deserved some smacking upside the head for
that whole ordeal, though fortunately it looks like the engineers won
out over the marketing-droids for the next round, as the Deskpro EN
systems were quite possibly the best build x86 desktops ever made.

 

[George Macdonald]

Alrighty then. YOu don't know what crap Dell service (and AFAIK, all the
others) has become. I believe it was GeorgeM a while ago recanting his
dealings with Dell's Indian connection on "desktop-class" systems.

No - I haven't had any direct dealings with Dell for years. I may have
mentioned the travails of other folks with that though.

 

[keith]

Grab any copy of any computer magazine and you will see dozens of ads
for computer systems made and sold by medium-sized companies.

Ok, but I wouldn't call *any* medium-sized. My first Pentium system was
a Quantex, by your definition a "medium-sized" builder. It was junk, as
was the support and everything else. They're no longer (surprise,
surprise). The fact is that this business doesn't allow for
"medium-sized". You're either big, and can leverage prices, or small and
can leverage service. There isn't anything inbetween.

We'll disagree.

 

[David Schwartz]

Ok, but I wouldn't call *any* medium-sized. My first Pentium system was
a Quantex, by your definition a "medium-sized" builder. It was junk, as
was the support and everything else. They're no longer (surprise,
surprise). The fact is that this business doesn't allow for
"medium-sized". You're either big, and can leverage prices, or small and
can leverage service. There isn't anything inbetween.

We'll disagree.

I don't understand, are you saying the medium-sized companies don't
exist or that you don't recommend them? If the former, we definitely
disagree. If the latter, I never recommend them. I simply said they're an
alternative to the largest and the smallest companies.

DS

 

[keith]

I don't understand, are you saying the medium-sized companies don't
exist or that you don't recommend them? If the former, we definitely
disagree. If the latter, I never recommend them. I simply said they're an
alternative to the largest and the smallest companies.

Actually, I'm saying *both*. There are some who *pretend* to be large
enough to be well enough funded to be considered mid-sized, but I wouldn't
go there either. The market just doesn't allow anyone in the middle.

 

[David Schwartz]

Actually, I'm saying *both*. There are some who *pretend* to be large
enough to be well enough funded to be considered mid-sized, but I wouldn't
go there either. The market just doesn't allow anyone in the middle.

How do you explain this:

http://usa.asus.com/products/server/system/ap1710-e1/overview.htm

Or this:

http://www.emachines.com/products/products.html?prod=eMachines_T3958

Or this:

http://wyse.vecmar.com/winterm/winterm_9650XE.htm

DS

 

[keith]

How do you explain this:

http://usa.asus.com/products/server/system/ap1710-e1/overview.htm

Asus isn't exactly a middle-sized company.

Or this:

http://www.emachines.com/products/products.html?prod=eMachines_T3958

E-Machines is owned by Gateway, ...hardly a small company either. Well,
at least they don't think they are, yet.

Or this:

http://wyse.vecmar.com/winterm/winterm_9650XE.htm

Don't know anything about the company.

 

[David Schwartz]

Asus isn't exactly a middle-sized company.

E-Machines is owned by Gateway, ...hardly a small company either. Well,
at least they don't think they are, yet.

Ahh. I thought you would complain these were all too small. Here are
some smaller companies.

Remember the context -- I was suggesting these as an alternative to
Compaq/HP/Dell or local system builders. These are certainly neither of
those.

http://www.xtechnology.com/scr/xtcat.dll/ListItemsC?LineID=P4&CategId=59

http://www.usa-pccity.com/mall/desktop.asp

http://www.arsenalpc.com/Items.asp?CatID=10

Note: These are *not* recommendations.

DS