Dell sued over bait & switch advertising

[George Macdonald]

Proprietary keyboard connector?! The only place I've ever seen one of
those was a Packard Hell, where it has a special keyboard + mouse +
speaker/mic connector all in one. All the Compaq and HP machines I've
come across use plain old PS/2 (or sometimes USB) keyboards and mice.
Mind you, I pretty much only deal with their commercial line, so I
don't know what the deal is with the Presario systems.

Oops I just dated myself.... AGAIN! Way back, Compaq had a proprietary
keyboard connector - nothing else fit and there was no adapter - maybe
thats why people bought more than one?? I recall a Wyse 386 system we
got had a RJ-11 for the keyboard connector, just like their TTYs, but at
least they supplied an adapter with the system.

Of the HPaq commercial machines that I see (which is a direct
descendant of the old Compaq Deskpro/Evo line), they use all pretty
standard connectors except for the power connector. These are
definitely non-standard. Actually the new ones use one non-standard
connector for the main power but use the standard 4-pin secondary
ATX12V connector (or at least I think it's standard, though I haven't
checked the pin-out). It's not really such a big deal for these
systems though since they're mostly small form factor systems where
any other power supply just wouldn't physically fit in the case. In
the case of the few minitowers we've got, they normally use the exact
same motherboard as their corresponding SFF system, so they're kind of
stuck with the non-standard power connector.

A slightly more annoying problem with these machines is that a
standard floppy drive usually will not work. Fortunately floppies are
rarely used these days, but when they are needed, it's a bit of a PITA
to have to get a specific HPaq (or Dell) part at the rather exorbitant
prices they charge (~$40 US as I recall?)

So much for "industry standards" - makes DIY even more attractive.

 

[Hank Oredson]

KeithKit

There are 4 or 5 HankKits made from recycled free
machines sitting in the next room

If you're up to it (it's not hard), build your own. No question!

Have built dozens.

Usually spend too much time and money doing so, compared
to a high end Dell or PowerSpec. Might do it again, since right
now Dell doesn't have what I want. The high end PowerSpec
is close, and priced just a tad under what I could do by building
one myself. Their service is good, couple of my relatives (including
my 90 year old mother) have them and are very pleased.

So you've never had to replace parts or get service?

Don't recall every needing to call their support staff, the machines
"just work". All are XPS systems, newest is an 8200. It's my old
T550 that needs replacement (grin).

Have replaced lots of parts in the Dells, always by choice.
Better vid, bigger disk, more ram, etc. Did lose one hard
drive and had to replace it, no big deal.

So I was just curious which brand of already built plug it
in it works machine you might endorse.

--

... Hank

http://home.earthlink.net/~horedson
http://home.earthlink.net/~w0rli

 

[Hank Oredson]

It entirely depends on your intended uses. For
my own work (2D-intensive), I build my own. For
neighbors with generic requirements, the MicroTels
that Wal-Mart sells (web only), are perfectly
adequate inexpensive platforms, and are supportable,
as they have both Windows and Linux drivers.


The question is - when you have a problem, just
how big a problem do you have? One of the things
that has put me off Dell is their periodic forays
into needless proprietary stuff, including motherboard
power connectors.

Have not lost MB or PS on a Dell yet, and I'm pretty
sure they stopped that non-standard PS nonesense

I'm looking for something more high end, won't find one
at Wal-Mart. No problem building my own, have built
dozens over the years, was just curious if there were
some particular brands folks liked.

--

... Hank

http://home.earthlink.net/~horedson
http://home.earthlink.net/~w0rli

 

[Tony Hill]

Don't recall every needing to call their support staff, the machines
"just work". All are XPS systems, newest is an 8200. It's my old
T550 that needs replacement (grin).

Have replaced lots of parts in the Dells, always by choice.
Better vid, bigger disk, more ram, etc. Did lose one hard
drive and had to replace it, no big deal.

So I was just curious which brand of already built plug it
in it works machine you might endorse.

If I had to chose one of the big OEMs for a home system, it would
probably be a Dell... or an Apple, but I guess they don't really
count.

Dell is at least as good as anyone else in the tier-one OEM market,
though when "anyone else" is HPaq, that isn't exactly a glowing
endorsement. You can usually find Dell systems for fairly decent
prices.

If you're willing to pay extra than you can find some good quality
systems from some more niche-market builders. Alienware is one that I
know of who at least use high quality components (I don't have any
personal experience with them, so I can't say much else about them).
Might be worth checking out their site.

 

[Tony Hill]

Oops I just dated myself.... AGAIN! Way back, Compaq had a proprietary
keyboard connector - nothing else fit and there was no adapter - maybe
thats why people bought more than one?? I recall a Wyse 386 system we
got had a RJ-11 for the keyboard connector, just like their TTYs, but at
least they supplied an adapter with the system.

In mentioning a Wyse computer I think you are REALLY dating yourself
there George! :>

Now that you mention it though, I do remember seeing some odd-ball
connectors for keyboards on a variety of computers way back in the day
(286 and 386 era mainly). Never much dealt with any of those though,
mainly since I was still in grade school at the time!

So much for "industry standards" - makes DIY even more attractive.

Yup, I wouldn't think of getting an HPaq or a Dell for home use.
However for business systems where you need to support anything more
than about 10 machines they start to become REAL attractive. Having a
single source for all your driver downloads, being able to use the
same basic procedure for setting up and supporting your systems can
really help. Not to mention the fact that you can get all your
replacement parts sent overnight when one goes bad.

 

[George Macdonald]

Have not lost MB or PS on a Dell yet, and I'm pretty
sure they stopped that non-standard PS nonesense

According to what we hear in c.s.i.p.h.c they are still doing it. As for
the "lost" part, the devil is not in the replacing - diagnosing & finding
it is the real rub; having a standard part which can be swapped in is umm,
nice. Do you really want some screwdriver jockey from a 3rd party
maintenance op. monkeying with your system and all its valuable data?

I'm looking for something more high end, won't find one
at Wal-Mart. No problem building my own, have built
dozens over the years, was just curious if there were
some particular brands folks liked.

I advise people to go to a local system builder but they buy Dells
anyway.<shrug> The only thing I can think is that deciding which
components they want/need is too much work.

 

[chrisv]

Dell is at least as good as anyone else in the tier-one OEM market,
though when "anyone else" is HPaq, that isn't exactly a glowing
endorsement. You can usually find Dell systems for fairly decent
prices.

I buy/make a lot of PC's for my job. They are put to fairly heavy use
in a wide variety of tasks (not normal desktop use). I've always
spec'ed generic machines and we built them up ourselves. A few months
ago I needed some XP machines fast, so I ordered a few Dell's.

At first, they seemed okay, and I started thinking "maybe I'll buy
more of these pre-built things and save myself some work". However,
after a few months they started to screw-up, becoming less stable,
needing reboots, re-installs, etc. The hardware is a cut below the
generic stuff I buy as well (e.g. Antec cases, Intel-brand 845- and
865-based motherboards).

Needless to say, I'm not planning on any more Dell's in the near
future... It's reinforced my long-held belief that the best PC is one
you make yourself.

 

[Hank Oredson]

If I had to chose one of the big OEMs for a home system, it would
probably be a Dell... or an Apple, but I guess they don't really
count.

Dell is at least as good as anyone else in the tier-one OEM market,
though when "anyone else" is HPaq, that isn't exactly a glowing
endorsement. You can usually find Dell systems for fairly decent
prices.

If you're willing to pay extra than you can find some good quality
systems from some more niche-market builders. Alienware is one that I
know of who at least use high quality components (I don't have any
personal experience with them, so I can't say much else about them).
Might be worth checking out their site.

I've looked at 4 or 5 of the "gamer style" systems builders, and am a bit
put off by things like plastic panels and blinking lights

Thanks for your comments re Dell.
Have already ruled out HPaq, Sony, GQ and a few others.

--

... Hank

http://home.earthlink.net/~horedson
http://home.earthlink.net/~w0rli

 

[Hank Oredson]

I buy/make a lot of PC's for my job. They are put to fairly heavy use
in a wide variety of tasks (not normal desktop use). I've always
spec'ed generic machines and we built them up ourselves. A few months
ago I needed some XP machines fast, so I ordered a few Dell's.

At first, they seemed okay, and I started thinking "maybe I'll buy
more of these pre-built things and save myself some work". However,
after a few months they started to screw-up, becoming less stable,
needing reboots, re-installs, etc. The hardware is a cut below the
generic stuff I buy as well (e.g. Antec cases, Intel-brand 845- and
865-based motherboards).

Needless to say, I'm not planning on any more Dell's in the near
future... It's reinforced my long-held belief that the best PC is one
you make yourself.

Thanks for the comments. Our most recent Dell is from the first
of the 8200 series, and it has been stable. Have upgraded video
and hard drive, not much more to change. No experience with
their newer boxes.

--

... Hank

http://home.earthlink.net/~horedson
http://home.earthlink.net/~w0rli

 

[Hank Oredson]

According to what we hear in c.s.i.p.h.c they are still doing it. As for
the "lost" part, the devil is not in the replacing - diagnosing & finding
it is the real rub; having a standard part which can be swapped in is umm,
nice. Do you really want some screwdriver jockey from a 3rd party
maintenance op. monkeying with your system and all its valuable data?

Never a problem. I do the work, or my wife does, we are both
competent with tools and test equipment.

I advise people to go to a local system builder but they buy Dells
anyway.<shrug> The only thing I can think is that deciding which
components they want/need is too much work.

The local system builders do not build machines as good as the
ones that I build Points are well taken though, thank you.

--

... Hank

http://home.earthlink.net/~horedson
http://home.earthlink.net/~w0rli

 

[Scott Alfter]

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Funky power supplies are pretty much the norm for big OEMs, the trick
with Dells is that they were physically identical to standard ATX
supplies but where electrically different. Made it just too tempting
for people to try swapping out the board or power supply with a
standard one that just wouldn't work. With HPaq supplies, for
example, they are still non-standard, but at least you KNOW that they
are non-standard since they won't fit into an ATX connector without
the use of a decently large hammer.

I've had to replace power supplies in HP equipment, and they use the same
ATX connector as everybody else. (One of them needed the same tiny power
supply that eMachines used in some of its boxes, due to space constraints.
I guess it's a good thing that the power supplies in eMachines boxes were so
crappy that the aftermarket had to step forward with replacements. :-| )

_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( http://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ rm -rf /bin/laden >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

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[George Macdonald]

In mentioning a Wyse computer I think you are REALLY dating yourself
there George! :>

Harrumph - just you wait an' see: 20 years will snap by without you even
noticing. At least Wyse is still in business, though I've no idea when
they made their last PC - ours was a 386/16... with a 1MB full length
memory upgrade card.

Now that you mention it though, I do remember seeing some odd-ball
connectors for keyboards on a variety of computers way back in the day
(286 and 386 era mainly). Never much dealt with any of those though,
mainly since I was still in grade school at the time!


Yup, I wouldn't think of getting an HPaq or a Dell for home use.
However for business systems where you need to support anything more
than about 10 machines they start to become REAL attractive. Having a
single source for all your driver downloads, being able to use the
same basic procedure for setting up and supporting your systems can
really help. Not to mention the fact that you can get all your
replacement parts sent overnight when one goes bad.

If you buy all 10, 20, 40 or whatever at exactly the same time sure but
even a few months apart or a slightly different model and you *could* need
different HD diags, different video drivers, different BIOS and even
different chipset .INFs, etc. etc.. Things move quickly and I see this
with even the few Thinkpads we have.

 

[Henry Nettles]

If you buy all 10, 20, 40 or whatever at exactly the same time sure but
even a few months apart or a slightly different model and you *could* need
different HD diags, different video drivers, different BIOS and even
different chipset .INFs, etc. etc.. Things move quickly and I see this
with even the few Thinkpads we have.

A few years ago, I was working for Chevron when they entered into an
agreement to buy 30,000 (yes, thirty-thousand) desktop systems from
HP. All of the systems were the same, and HP agreed as part of the
contract to make them EXACTLY the same. It took the best part of one
full year to roll out all of the new desktops, and the last system
delivered cost exactly the same as the first one -- imagine how much
the prices would have declined over the cost of a year, if not locked
in. However, the way Chevron management had it figured, the desktop
systems were going to last for 3 years, and the cost of support was
$300 per month, so the initial hardware costs were insignificant
compared to the support costs.

And this $300 a month support cost was already taking into account the
savings associated with every desktop being EXACTLY the same, and the
only real support you got was, "You've got a problem, we'll re-image
your PC."

 

[David Schwartz]

I advise people to go to a local system builder but they buy Dells
anyway.<shrug> The only thing I can think is that deciding which
components they want/need is too much work.

I strongly urge people to avoid local system builders (unless they have
solid recommendations or they are qualified to evaluate the system builder).
I have heard too many stories and had too many experiences with incompetent
installation, rushed installation, incompatible parts, substandard parts,
overpricing, bait and switch, and so on.

DS

 

[daytripper]

I strongly urge people to avoid local system builders (unless they have
solid recommendations or they are qualified to evaluate the system builder).
I have heard too many stories and had too many experiences with incompetent
installation, rushed installation, incompatible parts, substandard parts,
overpricing, bait and switch, and so on.

[..../]

Dell Irony Meter

(yeah - *none* of that ever happens with the Big Guys ;-)

 

[George Macdonald]

Never a problem. I do the work, or my wife does, we are both
competent with tools and test equipment.

It's a long while since I had a big OEM system but, back then, in the
warranty period, self-repair with vendor supplied parts was not an option.
IOW I had to bite my tongue as some monkey from TRW(IIRC) hacked at our
system; after he'd gone I had to tighten the mbrd mounting screws, reseat
the add-in cards, reset the case cover so it fit and uncross the
cross-threaded screws.

The local system builders do not build machines as good as the
ones that I build Points are well taken though, thank you.

Agreed -- no doubt DIY is best -- but if you can find a decent local guy, I
believe it'll be a cut above what you can get from large OEMs.

 

[David Schwartz]

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:55:45 -0800, "David Schwartz"
<[email protected]>
wrote:

(yeah - *none* of that ever happens with the Big Guys ;-)

I didn't say to go to the big guys, I said to avoid local system
builders unless they have solid recommendations or you are qualified to
evaluate the system builder. Did I mention that local system builders often
give you a warranty that is utterly worthless and may use parts that don't
have any warranties at all.

DS

 

[keith]

Harrumph - just you wait an' see: 20 years will snap by without you even
noticing. At least Wyse is still in business, though I've no idea when
they made their last PC - ours was a 386/16... with a 1MB full length
memory upgrade card.

Yeah, I still remember my first (legal) beer. Oh, wait! You said 20
years. ;-) Hey! I'm still 34! Hey Tony, catching up yet? ;-)

I remember the odd-ball connector on the 5150. Who in their right mind
would use a 5-pin DIN connector? What *were* they thinking? Who would
have positive edge-triggered interrupts? ...but I digress. ;-)

If you buy all 10, 20, 40 or whatever at exactly the same time sure but
even a few months apart or a slightly different model and you *could*
need different HD diags, different video drivers, different BIOS and
even different chipset .INFs, etc. etc.. Things move quickly and I see
this with even the few Thinkpads we have.

Sure. What about those with the hardware setting on the hard disk? The
PS/2s at least had configuration floppys that could be saved.

 

[keith]

A few years ago, I was working for Chevron when they entered into an
agreement to buy 30,000 (yes, thirty-thousand) desktop systems from
HP. All of the systems were the same, and HP agreed as part of the
contract to make them EXACTLY the same. It took the best part of one
full year to roll out all of the new desktops, and the last system
delivered cost exactly the same as the first one -- imagine how much
the prices would have declined over the cost of a year, if not locked
in.

Or how much HPaq knew they were going to decline and figured it into
the bid. (my bet)

However, the way Chevron management had it figured, the desktop
systems were going to last for 3 years, and the cost of support was
$300 per month, so the initial hardware costs were insignificant
compared to the support costs.

No question. Hardware is cheap. My company wanted to replace my laptop
this year. My setup was more valuable to me than the new laptop was. Not
to mention that I would be going backwards. I refused the "upgrade".

And this $300 a month support cost was already taking into account the
savings associated with every desktop being EXACTLY the same, and the
only real support you got was, "You've got a problem, we'll re-image
your PC."

$300/month shows rather well the Redmond tax. What is that, one
Win-bod per 20 desks? Yikes!

 

[Joe Pfeiffer]

I didn't say to go to the big guys, I said to avoid local system
builders unless they have solid recommendations or you are qualified to
evaluate the system builder. Did I mention that local system builders often
give you a warranty that is utterly worthless and may use parts that don't
have any warranties at all.

If you recommend against the little guys, and don't recommend the big
guys, who is left? Surely you're not suggesting people who aren't
competent to judge the system builder should build their own?