Can you load specific color profiles for Canon i560

[Ron Krebs]

The printer comes with what I think are generic color profiles. Some are
for glossy paper, some for matte, etc. What I'd like to do is load Kodak's
ProPhoto color profile for this printer. I already have my monitor and Adobe
PS CS set for this profile. I'd like to see if I can have all three devices
use the same profile. Is this possible? Currently I have the color
management on the printer turned off. There is an option to use ICM but I
still think that will use one of the "coded" profiles that the printer came
with. Without the ICM option on the printer enabled, my output is fairly
accurate compared to what my "eye" sees both "real world" and on my monitor.
Do you think that Kodak may have a canon-specific Prophoto file at their
website? Or should I leave well enough alone. Pix are mainly for pleasure
not business so I'm not interested in investing in a color spyder for my
monitor. Besides, as I mentioned, the monitor is pretty well tuned into what
I think is accurate. TIA,

Ron

 

[bmoag]

If you do not have a calibrated monitor then it matters not if you have
profiles for any specific paper.
The purpose of calibration profiles, be they for monitor or paper or printer
or whatever, is to be able to translate colors from one device to another
with reasonable certainty that they will appear reasonably alike.
You have no "real world" way to judge the colors on your computer monitor.
The brain adapts what the eye sees to make it look like what the brain
thinks it should look like. It is the auto white balance of the mind.
If you prints are coming out consistently similar to what you see on your
monitor then you are quite fortunate. Your luck will change as your monitor
ages and its current output drifts unpredictably.
The Canon method for color management with the 560 printer is somewhat
arcane; you can get the instructions from them but, again, if you have no
calibrated monitor and no color managed imaging program it is all for
naught.

 

[measekite]

IF YOU ARE GOING TO USE A 560 CHEAPO OUTDATED PRINTER YOU CERTAINLY DO
NOT NEED TO WORRY ABOUT PROFILES.

 

[Tesco News]

The printer comes with what I think are generic color profiles. Some are
for glossy paper, some for matte, etc. What I'd like to do is load Kodak's
ProPhoto color profile for this printer. I already have my monitor and
Adobe
PS CS set for this profile. I'd like to see if I can have all three
devices
use the same profile. Is this possible? Currently I have the color
management on the printer turned off. There is an option to use ICM but I
still think that will use one of the "coded" profiles that the printer
came
with. Without the ICM option on the printer enabled, my output is fairly
accurate compared to what my "eye" sees both "real world" and on my
monitor.
Do you think that Kodak may have a canon-specific Prophoto file at their
website? Or should I leave well enough alone. Pix are mainly for pleasure
not business so I'm not interested in investing in a color spyder for my
monitor. Besides, as I mentioned, the monitor is pretty well tuned into
what
I think is accurate. TIA,

Ron

Hi.

The first big question should be "Which Kodak Paper are you printing on"?.

Kodak only supply Profiles for their "Professional" Paper.

The second big question is What do you mean when you say " I already have
my Monitor set for Pro Foto"?.

Ps should be using a Monitor Profile, specific to your Monitor, which should
then have been Calibrated using a Hardware Device or Adobe Gamma.

Ps should be converting from the Working Space Profile, (sRGB or Adobe RGB
or Pro Foto or whatever) tagged onto your images to :-

1. Your Monitor via the Monitor Profile.

2. Your Printer via the Printer / Paper Profile.

Monitor and Printer Profiles are entirely different things from working
Space Profiles, and have entirely different purposes.

If you are getting accurate Colour Prints, you are extremely lucky, unless
I have completely mis-understood your workflow.

Have a look at the Ps "Help" files for colour Management, or go to
www.digital-darkroom.com for an explanation of CM pronciples.

Roy G

 

[Ron Krebs]

Hi.

The first big question should be "Which Kodak Paper are you printing on"?.

Kodak only supply Profiles for their "Professional" Paper.

The second big question is What do you mean when you say " I already have
my Monitor set for Pro Foto"?.

Ps should be using a Monitor Profile, specific to your Monitor, which should
then have been Calibrated using a Hardware Device or Adobe Gamma.

Ps should be converting from the Working Space Profile, (sRGB or Adobe RGB
or Pro Foto or whatever) tagged onto your images to :-

1. Your Monitor via the Monitor Profile.

2. Your Printer via the Printer / Paper Profile.

Monitor and Printer Profiles are entirely different things from working
Space Profiles, and have entirely different purposes.

If you are getting accurate Colour Prints, you are extremely lucky, unless
I have completely mis-understood your workflow.

Have a look at the Ps "Help" files for colour Management, or go to
www.digital-darkroom.com for an explanation of CM pronciples.

Roy G

Thanks for responding without sounding impatient or indignant. I know what's
current in printer technology and I bought this i560 some time ago. There
was a time that I thought NOT having the latest and greatest system was akin
to being castrated among the "gotta haveits" of the world. I outgrew that
stage. I thought I also made it clear that the pix are for pleasure and not
business nor will I lose sleep over the possibility of losing a few
angstroms of red if I don't edit in 16-bit first rather than in 8-bit. What
I forgot to mention was that I have used Adobe gamma to adjust my monitor
but refuse to buy a $$$ device to hang over my screen to rectify what
miniscule difference others will argue over for hours upon end. The paper I
use varies from time to time but usually is glossy. But that seems to make
no difference whatsoever. What makes the most difference in my output is
Adobe PS' "desaturate monitor colors by x%" option and the enabling of ICM
within the printer or not. I know how all the devices including the camera
affect each other. I chose the Prophoto profile over the Adobe 98 because it
has a wider gamut allows more elbow room in editing not because I use
Kodak's paper. What I want to know is whether anyone knows if there's a
prophoto profile that the printer can use so I can judge whether that's
important enough to have or not. I have already used and fooled around with
Qimage and creating profiles specific to my workflow and devices. I just
thought I'd throw this out there to see what others know. Apparently, it
embarrassed some that I'd have something as "primitive" as the i560. It
still looks good to me, despite not having 22 separate ink carts or 0.005
nanoliter nozzles.

Ron

 

[Ron Krebs]

If you do not have a calibrated monitor then it matters not if you have
profiles for any specific paper.
The purpose of calibration profiles, be they for monitor or paper or printer
or whatever, is to be able to translate colors from one device to another
with reasonable certainty that they will appear reasonably alike.
You have no "real world" way to judge the colors on your computer monitor.
The brain adapts what the eye sees to make it look like what the brain
thinks it should look like. It is the auto white balance of the mind.
If you prints are coming out consistently similar to what you see on your
monitor then you are quite fortunate. Your luck will change as your monitor
ages and its current output drifts unpredictably.
The Canon method for color management with the 560 printer is somewhat
arcane; you can get the instructions from them but, again, if you have no
calibrated monitor and no color managed imaging program it is all for
naught.

Thanks for your response. I really like your analogy of the "white balance
of the mind". I tend to agree. But still, if the output DOES pretty much
match what my monitor shows, then you're saying that's a good start. Editing
my captures to suit my tastes on the screen to what I "think" true color
reproduction is should then be carried through to the printer, correct? I
have fooled around with Qimage and other SW methods of calibration but still
can't justify a HW device for such a purpose other than to wear it as a
badge of pseudo accreditation to photo junkies on usenet. The i560 still
serves its purpose for me as long as the nozzles continue to remain open. I
just wanted to see if anyone knew of gamut-specific color profiles that the
560 will accept rather than paper specific ones. Thanks again,

Ron

 

[measekite]

YOU CAN PROBABLY GET AN IP4200 FOR NEAR THE PRICE OF A SET OF CARTS.

 

[Ron Krebs]

YOU CAN PROBABLY GET AN IP4200 FOR NEAR THE PRICE OF A SET OF CARTS.

This is true of many replacement carts especially HP because they contain
the printing head and circuitry. But I refill with a bulk ink that works
well with the 560 carts and I make it a habit to run a purge page frequently
enough to keep nozzles from clogging(something canon carts are known for).
I think it's foolish to junk a perfectly good printer simply because the
mfgs overprice their carts. To me, this is all part of the built-in
obsolescence that these mfgs are party to. Heck, I still have a good Olympus
dye-sub that prints out decent 4x6 photos for my kids. Fortunately, I bought
a bunch of ribbon carts for this a few years back and as I said, it's still
going strong. Nah, YOU keep the printer companies' pockets lined by buying a
printer every year. I'll keep my 560 til the unit stops working. Oh, btw,
"CHEAPO" works for me. The cheaper the device that gets the job done to my
level of comfort, the better job I've done. But maybe going in the other
direction works for you. Congrats.

Ron

 

[Tesco News]

Thanks for responding without sounding impatient or indignant. I know
what's

thought I'd throw this out there to see what others know. Apparently, it
embarrassed some that I'd have something as "primitive" as the i560. It
still looks good to me, despite not having 22 separate ink carts or 0.005
nanoliter nozzles.

Ron

Hi again.

I am glad you are not offended at my answer. I fear, I might just be about
to do that now.

Your Choice of Pro Foto as your working space profile, is a personal choice,
but it might not be the best one for use with an older printer. The Colour
Gamut of the Printer will be quite a bit narrower than the Pro foto Gamut.
Some of the latest printers with the newer ink sets are pretty close to Pro
foto.

Putting that aside, you do not seem to have got the message that a Printer
Profile, needs to be specific to the Printer and the Paper being used in it
and the Inks in the Printer. Changing any one of these will require a
different Profile.

It is NOT dependant upon the Working Space ( Pro Foto).

If you go to a Printer or Paper Site which offers Profiles for Download,
(Epson, Kodak, Tetenal, etc) you will see that they offer Profiles for
specific Printer and Paper Combinations. They assume that you will be using
OEM inks in the Printer.

They never need to know which Working Space you will be using, as it has no
effect upon the Printer Profile.

All the experts advise that in PS "Print with Preview" dialogue, you should
leave the "Desaturate Monitor" strictly alone.

I still think you need to do a bit of reading on the subject, as your grasp
of the principles seems to be a bit lacking. Do have a look at the
previously mentioned places.

I am also an Amateur, and can not afford a hardware Profiler, but I do want
W.Y.S.I.W.Y.G.

I can achieve that, but I spent a fair amount of time reading up on Colour
Management. It is not rocket science, but a certain amount of knowledge is
needed.

Roy G

 

[Tesco News]

Hi again.

I am glad you are not offended at my answer. I fear, I might just be
about to do that now.

Your Choice of Pro Foto as your working space profile, is a personal
choice, but it might not be the best one for use with an older printer.
The Colour Gamut of the Printer will be quite a bit narrower than the Pro
foto Gamut. Some of the latest printers with the newer ink sets are pretty
close to Pro foto.

Putting that aside, you do not seem to have got the message that a Printer
Profile, needs to be specific to the Printer and the Paper being used in
it and the Inks in the Printer. Changing any one of these will require a
different Profile.

It is NOT dependant upon the Working Space ( Pro Foto).

If you go to a Printer or Paper Site which offers Profiles for Download,
(Epson, Kodak, Tetenal, etc) you will see that they offer Profiles for
specific Printer and Paper Combinations. They assume that you will be
using OEM inks in the Printer.

They never need to know which Working Space you will be using, as it has
no effect upon the Printer Profile.

All the experts advise that in PS "Print with Preview" dialogue, you
should leave the "Desaturate Monitor" strictly alone.

I still think you need to do a bit of reading on the subject, as your
grasp of the principles seems to be a bit lacking. Do have a look at the
previously mentioned places.

I am also an Amateur, and can not afford a hardware Profiler, but I do
want W.Y.S.I.W.Y.G.

I can achieve that, but I spent a fair amount of time reading up on Colour
Management. It is not rocket science, but a certain amount of knowledge
is needed.

Roy G

I should have mentioned.

In the Ps "Print with Preview" dialogue, in the "Print Profile" drop down
box, if you select a working space profile such as Pro Foto, Photoshop will
then do no Colour Management. On some versions you get a little message
advising you of this.

And that rather defeats the whole purpose of having Profiles and trying to
Colour Manage.

Roy G

 

[Ron Krebs]

Your Choice of Pro Foto as your working space profile, is a personal choice,
but it might not be the best one for use with an older printer. The Colour
Gamut of the Printer will be quite a bit narrower than the Pro foto Gamut.
Some of the latest printers with the newer ink sets are pretty close to Pro
foto.

Putting that aside, you do not seem to have got the message that a Printer
Profile, needs to be specific to the Printer and the Paper being used in it
and the Inks in the Printer. Changing any one of these will require a
different Profile.

It is NOT dependant upon the Working Space ( Pro Foto).

If you go to a Printer or Paper Site which offers Profiles for Download,
(Epson, Kodak, Tetenal, etc) you will see that they offer Profiles for
specific Printer and Paper Combinations. They assume that you will be using
OEM inks in the Printer.

They never need to know which Working Space you will be using, as it has no
effect upon the Printer Profile.

All the experts advise that in PS "Print with Preview" dialogue, you should
leave the "Desaturate Monitor" strictly alone.

I still think you need to do a bit of reading on the subject, as your grasp
of the principles seems to be a bit lacking. Do have a look at the
previously mentioned places.

I am also an Amateur, and can not afford a hardware Profiler, but I do want
W.Y.S.I.W.Y.G.

I can achieve that, but I spent a fair amount of time reading up on Colour
Management. It is not rocket science, but a certain amount of knowledge is
needed.

Roy G

I do understand what you're saying. But to be honest, I have used many
different papers, and haven't noticed any real difference in the output. If
the profiles for printers are only geared toward compatibility with certain
papers and not general color management, then there's really no advantage to
be gained here. At least not to my judgment. My monitor and PS workspace are
pretty much aligned. I go with Prophoto because there is less clipping of
color dynamics in going from RAW to edited file as there is with sRGB or
Adobe 98 for that matter. I'm also aware that the i560 or many of the
consumer printers out there cannot reproduce that gamut. I know I have a
lot to learn and that's why I'm asking the questions. Already, I have
learned from you that printers do not do color management per se but rather
offer a profile that is best suited for a particular surface. And I know
it's not rocket science. Rocket science is easier...heh. Thanks,

Ron

 

[Ron Krebs]

I should have mentioned.

In the Ps "Print with Preview" dialogue, in the "Print Profile" drop down
box, if you select a working space profile such as Pro Foto, Photoshop will
then do no Colour Management. On some versions you get a little message
advising you of this.

And that rather defeats the whole purpose of having Profiles and trying to
Colour Manage.

Roy G

Yeah, I looked at that. Under Print Space there are many profiles to choose
from including an option for Printer Color Management, Working RGB-ProPhoto,
Same as Source, and a ton of ICM profiles including, get this, WzyWYG.icm.
Hehe. Maybe I'll try that last one and see what happens. But the way I see
it is, if I select Printer Color Mgt, then THAT would turn off Adobe PS mngt
but if I choose Working RGB which is Prophoto, the color mgt is still done
by Adobe with that profile even though it is selected in Print Space. Am I
missing something in that assumption? Because if I select Printer Color
Mangt the Intent field for Perceptual and Black point comp is grayed out,
but not when I select Prophoto. This is PS CS. Maybe that works differently
than PS 7 or earlier. What's your take on this? Thanks,

Ron

 

[Tesco News]

I do understand what you're saying. But to be honest, I have used many
different papers, and haven't noticed any real difference in the output.
If
the profiles for printers are only geared toward compatibility with
certain
papers and not general color management, then there's really no advantage
to
be gained here. At least not to my judgment. My monitor and PS workspace
are
pretty much aligned. I go with Prophoto because there is less clipping of
color dynamics in going from RAW to edited file as there is with sRGB or
Adobe 98 for that matter. I'm also aware that the i560 or many of the
consumer printers out there cannot reproduce that gamut. I know I have a
lot to learn and that's why I'm asking the questions. Already, I have
learned from you that printers do not do color management per se but
rather
offer a profile that is best suited for a particular surface. And I know
it's not rocket science. Rocket science is easier...heh. Thanks,

Ron

If you are choosing pro foto as the Printer Profile, then you are telling Ps
to convert from Pro foto to Pro foto, (Do Nothing), and send that data to
the Printer.

Printer Drivers do have Colour Management built in, and will CM unless set
otherwise. Very often they select the Profile to use, when you specify the
media Type in the Drop down Box.

I rather suspect that in reality, your workflow is not actually doing any
Colour Management, unless, (unknown to you), the Printer Driver is applying
it. As someone else said, stopping a Canon Printer Driver from doing CM is
not at all simple

The Printer Profile does a lot more than just make alowances for the
Surface. It applies corrections to the RGB data, so that the colours
produced on the paper are the same as the colours specified in the RGB data.

If you print to Epson Premium Glossy, using just an Epson Printer Profile,
(Not a Paper Specific one), you will get a yellow coloured Print. If you
use that same Profile and print onto Tetenal Spectra Jet Glossy you will get
a slightly blue print. If you use the correct Printer / Paper Profiles, you
would get correct colours on each paper.

The most common cause of incorrect Colour in Prints, is when both Photoshop
and the Printer Driver are being allowed to apply Colour Management, known
as Double Profiling.

Of course Pro Foto will be closer to the original colours because it has a
wide Gamut. BUT your printer has a much narrower Gamut, and it will clip
the colours.

If you used a Working Space profile more like your Printers Gamut, you would
be aware of the degree of clipping which has happened, and could adjust the
Image colours as you prefer.

As I keep saying you really do need to read up on the basic principles
behind CM. You do seem to be missing most of the points being made, because
you are unaware of the different functions which different types of Profiles
are designed to do. There is a very helpfull chart in the Ps Help files.

Roy G

 

[Ron Krebs]

If you are choosing pro foto as the Printer Profile, then you are telling Ps
to convert from Pro foto to Pro foto, (Do Nothing), and send that data to
the Printer.

Printer Drivers do have Colour Management built in, and will CM unless set
otherwise. Very often they select the Profile to use, when you specify the
media Type in the Drop down Box.

I rather suspect that in reality, your workflow is not actually doing any
Colour Management, unless, (unknown to you), the Printer Driver is applying
it. As someone else said, stopping a Canon Printer Driver from doing CM is
not at all simple

The Printer Profile does a lot more than just make alowances for the
Surface. It applies corrections to the RGB data, so that the colours
produced on the paper are the same as the colours specified in the RGB data.

If you print to Epson Premium Glossy, using just an Epson Printer Profile,
(Not a Paper Specific one), you will get a yellow coloured Print. If you
use that same Profile and print onto Tetenal Spectra Jet Glossy you will get
a slightly blue print. If you use the correct Printer / Paper Profiles, you
would get correct colours on each paper.

The most common cause of incorrect Colour in Prints, is when both Photoshop
and the Printer Driver are being allowed to apply Colour Management, known
as Double Profiling.

Of course Pro Foto will be closer to the original colours because it has a
wide Gamut. BUT your printer has a much narrower Gamut, and it will clip
the colours.

If you used a Working Space profile more like your Printers Gamut, you would
be aware of the degree of clipping which has happened, and could adjust the
Image colours as you prefer.

As I keep saying you really do need to read up on the basic principles
behind CM. You do seem to be missing most of the points being made, because
you are unaware of the different functions which different types of Profiles
are designed to do. There is a very helpfull chart in the Ps Help files.

Roy G

Well thanks for the advice. For lacking much of the basic concepts, I must
be very lucky then. Because the prints are very good. I get lots of
compliments on them. So in order to avoid sending my viewers into "color
ecstasy", I think I'll leave well enough alone. I must have done enough
things wrong for the result to come out so well...heh. It's one of those
cases where if you try to tweak the stew with just "called-for" spices too
much, you botch it. Thanks again and I'll keep reading about CM.

Ron

 

[Tesco News]

Well thanks for the advice. For lacking much of the basic concepts, I
must
be very lucky then. Because the prints are very good. I get lots of
compliments on them. So in order to avoid sending my viewers into "color
Ron

As I said in my first posting

"If you are getting accurate Colour Prints, you are extremely lucky, unless
I have completely mis-understood your workflow."

Roy G