Business usefullness of MS Access

R

Ron

I am looking for some feedback from this group as far as your perception of
the usefulness of Access databases to solving business needs. We are a small
manufacturing company that was looking into an all-encompassing ERP
(Enterprise Resource Planning) software system. Although we all recognize
the advantage in having the entire operation modeled in a single software
solution the costs at this time in our history is prohibitive. I have hired
an IT professional part time who is of the opinion that developing different
Access databases to solve individual problems is not the way to go. Giving
the various personnel and departments solutions that they are requesting in
this piecemeal fashion only enables them to carry on in a way that
ultimately will be cost prohibitive.

1. Future maintenance of the system will become a major problem.

2. By this piecemeal approach the true development costs are not realized.

3. He also feels that MS Access is not a "robust" enough program to rely
upon for mission critical operations.



I think I understand where an IT professional is coming from but I would
like some

feedback from a group that uses MS Access on a day-to-day basis to solve
these very issues.



Any feedback would be much appreciated.



Ron
 
G

Guest

After many years in developing industrial-strength database systems (using
mostly Microsoft products), I would agree with your IT professional that
Access is not robust enough for an "all-encompassing ERP" system. SQL Server
is much better suited, but I also would recommend against rolling your own
with that system. Better (and cheaper) to buy and adapt an off-the shelf ERP
system, from somebody like Great Plains, SAP or Peoplesoft (these are just
examples, not product endorsements!)
 
G

Guest

Access is not an ERP program.

Would agree with all the points your IT consultant makes. Access has its
uses, but it shouldn't be considered for mission-critical work. It functions
best as an ad hoc db solution for a limited number of users.
 
A

Albert D. Kallal

I would agree with your IT professional that
Access is not robust enough for an "all-encompassing ERP" system. SQL
Server
is much better suited

I think it is VERY important to distinguish between the developers tool
(such as ms-access, or vb), and the database engine used.
(sql server).

You do fail to distinguish this, and that does create a issue of confusing.
Ms-access can well scale to 1000+ users at the same time, it is really is a
function of the database engine you use.

the speed of grabbing data from oracle with c++, VB.net, VB6, or ms-access
are ALL THE SAME!!!

So, it not ms-access that does not scale in terms of users, but the JET
database engine, which one would obviously not use for a large mission
critical data store.....
Better (and cheaper) to buy and adapt an off-the shelf ERP
system, ...

Now, that makes perfect sense. and I agree.

anyway, it not a big deal, but one does need to distinguish ms-access (the
part to develop the appcation with), and the particular database engine you
"appropriately" choose to use with ms-access. Really, kind of a apples and
oranges issue...
 
R

Ron

I certainly am in agreement that Access is not the answer to an "ERP"
solution but how usefull is it to giving those the limited functionality to
help them do their jobs more efficiently. In following these news groups it
certainly appears that many individuals are attempting this. Is there
usfullness there?
 
R

Roger Carlson

Let me see if I can answer this in a piece meal fashion:
I have hired
an IT professional part time who is of the opinion that developing different
Access databases to solve individual problems is not the way to go.

Since I don't know your business requirements, I can't possibly say if this
is true. By "IT Professional" do you mean a professional database
developer? If not, what is his opinion worth? "IT Professional"
encompasses a huge range of skills.
Giving
the various personnel and departments solutions that they are requesting in
this piecemeal fashion only enables them to carry on in a way that
ultimately will be cost prohibitive.

Well, it's you said it's cost prohibitive to buy a system, and he says it's
prohibitive to make individual systems to carry on. Either way, it's cost
prohibitive. What you have to decide is if it's advantageous for your
people to be able to do their jobs NOW. Perhaps you need a phased approach
where you create individual systems to get you by until you can buy an
enterprise system.
1. Future maintenance of the system will become a major problem.

Access or not, ANY in-house development project will be a maintenance
problem.
2. By this piecemeal approach the true development costs are not realized.

This is true. Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because you're
doing it in-house that it will be cheaper. Often it is not. Perhaps I
should say, more often than not, it is not. However, a development project
in Access is often 3 to 4 times quicker and cheaper to build than in
something like VB.
3. He also feels that MS Access is not a "robust" enough program to rely
upon for mission critical operations.

Access the database engine? Or Access the development platform? There's a
big difference. The database engine that comes with Access (Jet) does have
its limitations. No one denies that. However, the Access development
environment (hitting a SQL Server database, for example) is perfectly
capable of producing a robust, mission-critical application.

In the end, this is not a technology question. It's a business question.
If you can't afford to buy a professional ERP system, what are you going to
do? Nothing? As I said, perhaps you need to look at developing some small
applications that can tide you over until you can buy a system. If you do,
you should look to the future when you'll want to integrate the data from
these into your new system. If your applications are properly created, this
shouldn't be a problem.

I recommend you get "Database Design for Mere Mortals" by Michael
Hernandez -- you personally -- and read it. This book is more than "how to
design your database" it's more "how to model your business". If you follow
his process, step by step, and ask ALL the questions he tells you to ask,
you will have a REALLY good grasp on how your business works from a data
perspective. This can be useful whether you are designing your own product
or buying another. Many people THINK they understand their business, when
they don't. This book can help you do that.
 
A

Albert D. Kallal

1. Future maintenance of the system will become a major problem.

the above is no more, or less true for most in-house applications. If you
have good developers, and good development practices, then the above is not
a problem. In fact, my experience is that if the target machines are
controlled in terms of what revisions of windows, and services packs etc,
then ms-access is as reliability as any other platform I used. I deployed a
lot of ms-access software to many companies, and my support incidence rates
are lower then virtually all of their other software vendors.

The real issue here is what type of developers you will attract, and at what
level of experience. Note that ms-access can now consume .net web services
(with the soap tool kit add in), and you can also use Visual Source Safe for
source code control, and multi person development of ms-access applications.
However, use of these tools is NOT the norm.
2. By this piecemeal approach the true development costs are not realized.

This is a usually a correct, and is a very powerful argument. I have to
agree. However, once again, this is not a specific ms-access issues as much
as a issue to roll your own, or purchase. But, I do agree with this issue...
It really comes down to what you can afford, MORE importantly what kind of
developer you have. (I can't stress this more...if you need a new office
chair..you just go purchase one.

If you need someone to write you a hit song, you then MUST purchase talent.
So, the BIG PROBLEM with software is that you need to purchase talent. Many
(if not most) businesses will NOT PAY extra for good talent, and try and do
things on the cheap. So, . I mean, if a manufacturing system costs $75,000
to purchase, it likely has 500,000 to 1 million dollars of previous
development cost. Further, that company spend all the time + money figuring
what developers are good and which ones to take off of the team.

So, while $75,000 might sound expensive, you are likely getting 1 million
dollars of software for that price.

So, if you do plain to make a movie, make music, or write software, then you
have to chase talent, and my experience is that MANY small business have not
leaned this lesson. Think of music, or crappie Hollywood movies. Software
is EXACTLY the same. You have to seek out the guys that made the matrix, or
the Spielberg's types. If you can't put aside pride, and accept the concept
of purchasing talent for your business, then don't try and develop software,
or you will wind up with bad piece of software (or music, or
movies..depending on what you are making). Again, I can't stress this
concept more that you must lean to chase talent. Most small business ARE NOT
willing to, or are not used to looking at hiring top talent when it counts
(as I said, you need a fence, or a new desk..just open the yellow pages.
However, if you can find anyone to make you a great hit song, then why not
hire them..and then make the song, and then sell it for millions of
dollars? -- You MUST HAVE the exact same thinking when you embark on
developing software...that means you MUST hire talent. As mentioned, most
businesses get by purchasing tables, fences, or whatever they need, and have
not learned that when you purchasing things like artwork, or things that are
based on talent, then you must purchase first rate talent.

Also, keep in mind when you purchase software, you are receiving much more
then what the cost to develop the software , and thus figure out if you need
all those extra features in that $75,000 product...
3. He also feels that MS Access is not a "robust" enough program to rely
upon for mission critical operations.

You can see my other post/response here. ms-access scales to as many users
as your database engine will handle. So, if you are using sql sever, or a
multi-processor Oracle cluster, you have to talk to them in terms of how
many users you can handle, but this is not really a issue, or limitation of
ms-access.

For the most part, ms-access is a ideal solution for small business when you
need custom applications. Here is some examples of custom ms-access
applications being used in the field....

http://accesstips.datamanagementsolutions.biz/apps.htm


-
Albert D. Kallal (Access MVP)
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
(e-mail address removed)
 
T

Tony Toews

Dave F said:
Access is not an ERP program.

Would agree with all the points your IT consultant makes. Access has its
uses, but it shouldn't be considered for mission-critical work. It functions
best as an ad hoc db solution for a limited number of users.

Oh? I have a former client (I fired them) running an ERP app which I
created. 25 users are in it all day long.

ERP was only a component. As the shop does pressure welding QC is
exceedingly critical.

I was looking at upsizing the backend to SQL Server. But keeping the
FE in Access.

Ad hoc? I respectfully and complete disagree with that comment. I
have apps which have been running some organizations for ten years.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
read the entire thread of messages.
Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
 
T

Tony Toews

Dave F said:
FWIW, wikipedia's entry on Access repeats many of the points your IT
consultant, as well as those of the people responding to this question, make:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ms_access

And depending on the bias of the editor I'm sure that's a balanced
entry.

Sorry, but I get my opinions from my personal experiences. Not some
IT consultant who has only been indoctrinated by folks who don't
understand Access strengths and weaknesses.

Tony
--
Tony Toews, Microsoft Access MVP
Please respond only in the newsgroups so that others can
read the entire thread of messages.
Microsoft Access Links, Hints, Tips & Accounting Systems at
http://www.granite.ab.ca/accsmstr.htm
 
G

Guest

My impression is that there is tremendous bias in the IT community against
Access for the dumbest of reasons: it's not mysterious enough.
 
G

Guest

Access is normally used for the parts of your operation
that are not covered by your overall solution. Yes,
add hoc piecemeal solutions are no replacement for
an overall solution.

Your business needs are probably similar to those of
other businesses. The most efficient, economic and robust
solution is to use commercial software developed for and
shared with those other business. Access could be used
for the loose ends.

Some business needs actually are unusual. For example,
scheduling software is normally custom built for each
different business type. Even dentists and doctors use
different software. If you are not in a common business
area, you may need custom software at the centre of your
operations.

There is nothing wrong with doing your own piecemeal
development of mission critical custom as it is needed,
if you go about it professionally. And you don't need to
start from scratch. There are small business solutions that
allow you to do your own custom development:
http://www.databasecreations.com/prod_buspro.htm

There are also many Exchange/Outlook (or Lotus Notes)
add-ins that allow you to use your Exchange/Lotus database
your ERP needs.:
http://www.ssw.com.au/ssw/eXtremeEmails/)


I don't recommend the Jet backend unless you can handle
down time of 1 hour, and loss of data back to the last back up.
That is sufficient for most needs of most small and medium
businesses, but not good enough for call centres and on-line
sales. Of course you can build solutions for call centres and
on-line sales using the Jet back end, but you wouldn't bother.

What is a 'mission critical' application to you? And what is 'robust'?
I have mission critical applications that meet my criteria, and can
be restored in 10 minutes on a new machine in a new office by
an untrained user. I have different users with $10-$100 million
worth of financial contracts handled by Jet databases. Jet is 'robust'
enough for that. But I don't use Jet for client-facing web interfaces.

(david)
 
A

Arvin Meyer [MVP]

I have been an IT consultant for about a dozen years now. I am also a
professional database developer who has worked with several systems
including Access, SQL-Server, Oracle, DataEase, and several accounting
systems.

If you can find an off-the-shelf product that fits your business (notice I
didn't say that you need to fit your business around it) that should be the
least expensive way to go. Custom products can be designed to fit your
business if you do not find something off-the-shelf. For a small business,
(up to a few hundred employees, with up to 50 users on the database) a well
designed Access database will be less expensive to build (by a wide margin)
than any other comparable custom system. I have built ERP systems for most
phases of the construction industry and have found that Access is roughly
one-fifth to one-sixth the cost of custom solutions in other programming
languages. One other poster here pointed you to this white paper, and I
suggest you read it carefully.:

http://www.fmsinc.com/tpapers/genaccess/DBOD.asp

In the meantime, beware of anyone who has a product to sell. To them, that
product will always be "your solution"
--
Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
Free MS-Access downloads:
http://www.datastrat.com
http://www.mvps.org/access
http://www.accessmvp.com
 
L

Larry Linson

I am looking for some feedback from this
group as far as your perception of the useful-
ness of Access databases to solving business
needs. We are a small manufacturing company
that was looking into an all-encompassing ERP
(Enterprise Resource Planning) software system.

I have observed many attempted implementations of "all-encompassing ERP
software" which cost millions, and required years to "set up" even if no
"custom code" was involved. In many of those cases, my colleagues and I
were called in to create, enhance, or maintain an "old Access solution" in
some area that, purportedly, eventually would be covered by the ERP system.
And, in some of those cases other departments (looking out two, three, or
more years before their area of the business would be set up and handled by
the ERP), talked to our clients and hired us to create _new_ Access
solutions to their particular business needs to "tide them over."

And, some of those ERP implementations, done by "reliable, reputable
vendors," have turned out to be even longer than originally projected, and
others have simply soaked up so much money with no useful results that they
have been cancelled. Thus, I'd advise that anyone considering ERP solutions
hire the very best _disinterested_ advisors they can -- the vendors, and
especially management consultants with an ERP specialty will, as has already
been pointed out, be looking out for their own vested interests. Some may
not have a particular ERP product they are "pushing," but just be pushing
_some_ ERP solution.

The "make or buy" decision is as old as business, and this is just another
manifestation. If you can find commercial software that matches the way you
do business and solves your business issues, it is likely that you can buy
it for less than you can build it. But, if you have to adapt your business
to the software, you may find that the savings are illusory.
. . . I have hired an IT professional part
time who is of the opinion that developing different
Access databases to solve individual problems
is not the way to go.

If the person is knowledgeable about the business, and about your specific
needs, knowledgeable about all the software being considered, and has
performed a thorough analysis, then this conclusion may be correct. If any
of the qualifications I stated are lacking, then it is likely not a _valid
conclusion_.

That's not to say that a similar recommendation will not result if reached
by competent personnel, knowledgeable in appropriate areas, after a thorough
analysis, but that the one that not based on those standards just cannot be
trusted.
Giving the various personnel and departments
solutions that they are requesting in this piece-
meal fashion only enables them to carry on in
a way that ultimately will be cost prohibitive.

This may or may not be true. If your company has been successful so far,
operating as the personnel and departments now operate, it is unlikely that
introducing software that will assist them in that mode of operation is
suddenly going to make them ineffective, or be cost prohibitive.
1. Future maintenance of the system
will become a major problem.

As there have, apparently, been no detailed requirements, design, nor
implementation of "the system" (the individual applications), it is
impossible to determine -- sounds to me like "marketing hype scare tactics"
from someone who's looking out for their own vested interest.
2. By this piecemeal approach the true
development costs are not realized.

This may be true. It may also be true that "true development costs" for any
solution may "not be realized." Is there any evidence that appropriate
management and accounting procedures will not be followed for this approach,
but will be for some other approach? "Piecemeal" is an example of an
emotionally charged term intended to bias your view -- see above "sounds to
me" clause.

It may also be indicative that your IT professional has simply never had
occasion to observe or experience a well-planned, well-managed Access
database implementation. If that is so, then I'd also count that against
his credibility on the issues.

I've been involved in software development since 1959, and experienced both
utterly chaotic projects and well-managed projects. I assure you that
whether a project falls in one category or the other is NOT dependent on the
software used, nor whether it is phased or staged in separate parts which
are (more or less) integrated at the end.

In fact, the answer to a high rate of mainframe project failures in the past
was to break them apart into manageable-sized phases or stages ("piecemeal"
perhaps?) but to apply good planning and management techniques to each. It
also let the users stay involved with the development and get something that
would start to help them with their work much sooner.

And, a number of the hottest approaches in today's development world are the
antithesis of the "all-encompassing" approach required by massive ERP
implementations, where little pieces are built, reviewed, modified, and
released. Often the increments are released in just a few days or a week or
two.
3. He also feels that MS Access is not a
"robust" enough program to rely
upon for mission critical operations.

If this was his statement, without qualifying it regarding datastores as the
various experienced, respected Access specialists have done here, then your
"IT Professional" is one who either has, without carefully investigating,
_accepted_ half-truths from those with a bias against Access, or is someone
who is knowingly putting forward half-truths in a manner intended to bias
_you_ against Access as a database software development tool. In either
case, in my view, this advice alone would disqualify the individual as a
reliable consultant.
I think I understand where an IT professional
is coming from but I would like some
feedback from a group that uses MS Access
on a day-to-day basis to solve these very issues.

I hope, for that individual's continued employment status, that your
evaluation is more charitable than mine would be just based on what you have
said.

Since 1994*, I have used Access daily, developing business database
applications for a variety of clients. Most, but not nearly all, of those,
used an ODBC-compliant server database as the "backend" or "data store."
Sometimes that was to accomodate performance for larger user audiences (up
into the low hundreds of users), but often it was for reliability and
recoverability.

* in 1993, all the Access applications I
developed were individual applications,
but with the advent of Access 2.0, it
really "took off" in the business world

Some of these business database applications would be considered by their
owners (my clients) to be "mission critical" and, if they so considered it,
we would carefully consider using a server database as a back end. But, in
other cases, carefully considering their criteria and their needs for
recoverability, those were developed as multiuser Access applications with a
shared Jet backend. As Ross Perot said, when he was running for President,
"The Devil's in the details." All we can do in (even such a lengthy)
newsgroup response is to advise you what you should consider and what may
appear to be unfounded claims and bad advice.

If you have the same team of Access developers doing the departmental
databases, and direct them ahead of time, they can likely create databases
that can easily exchange data, or perhaps share it in a common backend
datastore (whether Jet or a server DB).
Any feedback would be much appreciated.

I hope we have been able to be helpful and I wish you much success in
whatever approach you decide to follow.

Larry Linson
Microsoft Access MVP
 
D

David Cox

Larry Linson said:
I have observed many attempted implementations of "all-encompassing ERP
software" which cost millions, and required years to "set up" even if no
"custom code" was involved. In many of those cases, my colleagues and I
were called in to create, enhance, or maintain an "old Access solution" in
some area that, purportedly, eventually would be covered by the ERP
system. And, in some of those cases other departments (looking out two,
three, or more years before their area of the business would be set up and
handled by the ERP), talked to our clients and hired us to create _new_
Access solutions to their particular business needs to "tide them over."

And, some of those ERP implementations, done by "reliable, reputable
vendors," have turned out to be even longer than originally projected, and
others have simply soaked up so much money with no useful results that
they have been cancelled. Thus, I'd advise that anyone considering ERP
solutions hire the very best _disinterested_ advisors they can -- the
vendors, and especially management consultants with an ERP specialty will,
as has already been pointed out, be looking out for their own vested
interests. Some may not have a particular ERP product they are "pushing,"
but just be pushing _some_ ERP solution.

The "make or buy" decision is as old as business, and this is just another
manifestation. If you can find commercial software that matches the way
you do business and solves your business issues, it is likely that you can
buy it for less than you can build it. But, if you have to adapt your
business to the software, you may find that the savings are illusory.

I was called in by a small company that had grown their own software because
they could not find custom package to match the way they did business. I
discovered the reason for that was they were not running their business
right, The business was a "cash cow" and the piles of money hid critical
flaws in their accounting procedures, and I had the unfotuante task of
telling them that they were heading for insolvency. For a small company
changing you business to match a package may be the right way to go.
Packages are often built on decades of good practise.

I advice getting different views and learning the questions to ask. That
exercise alone could transform a business.
 
A

aaron.kempf

Ron;

he is CORRECT.

most Access development-- as it has been done previously-- is
WORTHLESS.

MDB isn't robust enough for a single record and a single user.

Access Data Projects; on the other hand; are a great solution.

they are stable; dependable and error-free.

i would reccomend getting a couple real SQL developers and doing it the
right way-- in SQL-- and then getting a good ADP developer to build a
front end.

Yes.. I have used Access every single day for more than a decade
myself.
but when I saw the beauty of ADP it just makes me gag to see these fat
lazy jerks sitting around still using MDB.

anyone that uses MDB for anything is DISEASED.
treat them like a leper and spit on them and run away.

MDB is for babies, retards and lepers.


-Aaron
ADP Nationalist
 

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