Beginner's question... XP Embedded vs Server Appliance Kit

[Guest]

Hi,

I have some newbie questions. XP Embedded satisfies the requirements we have
as per as OS functionality/capability.

But people who are familiar with the Windows Server 2000/2003 Server
Appliance Kit will notice that SAK offers some really nice features, like
watch dog timer, web pages for configuration of the computer, local UI or
small LCD to show system status.

So my questions are based on my experience with the SAK (1.0/2.0) based
development.

1. Does the XP Embedded have support for Watch Dog Timer interface (like the
SAK). If there a process hangs the machine, this Watch Dog Timer
(hardware-software module) will reboot the box, if the OS or our software
does not respond in a timely manner. Does XP embedded have something similar?
We need to ensure that the box runs unattended. And in case of a problem it
reboots.
2. Does the XP Embedded support two boot images. With SAK the hard drive
would have I believe 2 or 3 partitions. One would be the working partition.
And the second would have the recovery image. And third was the data. If the
primary working partition failed to boot up. It would use the second image
for bootup.
3. Initial box configuration. SAK has the web based configuration screens to
tweak the computer name, user accounts, network configuration etc. Does XP
Embedded offer any such web pages or a Desktop based client or wizard that
can be run to tweak those critical system settings.
4. Support for Local UI or LCD on the physical appliance box? This would
help the appliance run without the need for regular monitor (true appliance).
It will show basic text, like appliance name and address. And the current
status.
5. Any vendors that we can approach that can supply as boxes with LCD, Watch
Dog Timer etc, which XP Embedded capable?

Thanks, answers to some or all of these questions would help reduce my
development time.
Kris


PS: Is there any Microsoft contact or mail id to post these questions? It
seem I might have to contact distributors of XPe.

 

[KM]

Kris,

The major rule is that in XPe you have everything from XP Pro [almost everything] and + some EEFs (embedded enabled features).
It may appear not to be appropriate to compare XP Pro/XPe to Server OS / SAK.

I have some newbie questions. XP Embedded satisfies the requirements we have
as per as OS functionality/capability.

But people who are familiar with the Windows Server 2000/2003 Server
Appliance Kit will notice that SAK offers some really nice features, like
watch dog timer, web pages for configuration of the computer, local UI or
small LCD to show system status.

So my questions are based on my experience with the SAK (1.0/2.0) based
development.

1. Does the XP Embedded have support for Watch Dog Timer interface (like the
SAK). If there a process hangs the machine, this Watch Dog Timer
(hardware-software module) will reboot the box, if the OS or our software
does not respond in a timely manner. Does XP embedded have something similar?
We need to ensure that the box runs unattended. And in case of a problem it
reboots.

I am not aware of any software Watchdog timer built in XP.
However, you can always implement such and that will not be hard (service, driver, etc.) except some special things like HAL errors,
etc.
Also, there is a few Watchdog Timer software implementation available from 3rd parties. Some of them expose interfaces (APIs).

There is some hardware watchdog timer suport available through but this is hardware dependent (e.g., Intel(R) 6300ESB Watchdog
Timer).

2. Does the XP Embedded support two boot images. With SAK the hard drive
would have I believe 2 or 3 partitions. One would be the working partition.
And the second would have the recovery image. And third was the data. If the
primary working partition failed to boot up. It would use the second image for bootup.

Do you mean the OS has to switch to the second partiton (disk) boot automatically as a part of "recovery process"?
Then the answer is no. It will always require some manual steps from you (end user) to switch to boot from another partiton.
Basically you either have a few ARC paths specified in the boot.ini, or use Safe Mode boot of SP2.
Another approach is to have a recovery CD/USB/floppy/etc. boot supported.

3. Initial box configuration. SAK has the web based configuration screens to
tweak the computer name, user accounts, network configuration etc. Does XP
Embedded offer any such web pages or a Desktop based client or wizard that
can be run to tweak those critical system settings.

There is a bunch of wizards and system/network/hardware settings GUI application (control panel applets, etc.) available in XP
Pro/XPe.
Again, all software peices from XP Pro available on XPe. So if XP Pro satisfies your needs, XPe may be the way to go to make your
device "embedded".

4. Support for Local UI or LCD on the physical appliance box? This would
help the appliance run without the need for regular monitor (true appliance).
It will show basic text, like appliance name and address. And the current status.

Support for LCD? unless I misunderstood the question, it is going to be there if you use proper video card and mmonitor drivers
(remember laptops with LCD only that run XP Pro?)

I don't know what is the Local UI.

5. Any vendors that we can approach that can supply as boxes with LCD, Watch
Dog Timer etc, which XP Embedded capable?

VIA, Advantech, more and more...
Or contact an XPe Distributor and/or SI and they will give you a list of options available to you to meet your device requirements
and system specs.

PS: Is there any Microsoft contact or mail id to post these questions? It
seem I might have to contact distributors of XPe.

http://www.mswep.com
http://www.mswep.com/GoldResults.aspx?00000007=GkRr5Qp48ju10da3Ep28yA==

 

[Matt Kellner \(MS\)]

Do you mean the OS has to switch to the second partiton (disk) boot
automatically as a part of "recovery process"?
Then the answer is no. It will always require some manual steps from you
(end user) to switch to boot from another partiton.
Basically you either have a few ARC paths specified in the boot.ini, or
use Safe Mode boot of SP2.
Another approach is to have a recovery CD/USB/floppy/etc. boot supported.

The basic problem with this is that XP Pro (and thus XPe as well) supports
multiple bootable partitions through NTLDR and boot.ini, which by themselves
are not flexible enough to automatically switch from one partition to
another for booting. You would need to have some piece of software modify
boot.ini and set the default partition to boot the system from, and this
program would need to be able to tell when a failure had occurred so that it
would know when to boot the backup OS. Otherwise, you will need to manually
intervene in this case.

There is a bunch of wizards and system/network/hardware settings GUI
application (control panel applets, etc.) available in XP
Pro/XPe.
Again, all software peices from XP Pro available on XPe. So if XP Pro
satisfies your needs, XPe may be the way to go to make your
device "embedded".

Keep in mind also that, if you add the components for it to your runtime,
you will have access to Terminal Services (Remote Desktop Connection), which
will let you access your embedded device directly over the network. Support
is also included for remote system management (such as through the Computer
Management applet in Administrative Tools - you would be able to connect to
your XPe runtime through this and manage some of the settings that way.) It
all depends on how you configure the XPe runtime.

Support for LCD? unless I misunderstood the question, it is going to be
there if you use proper video card and mmonitor drivers
(remember laptops with LCD only that run XP Pro?)

I don't know what is the Local UI.

I believe he's referring to any device that would take the place of a
regular monitor - for example, a two-line text strip that can just display
certain status messages without requiring full graphics support. (This type
of device would allow you to create a headless system, which could reduce
your footprint considerably while still having a way to display messages to
the outside world.)

Kris: With an XP Embedded system, if you have such a device (say it's a USB
device) that has its own drivers, you can componentize the drivers for that
device, import them into your XPe database, and include them in your
runtime. (Depending on your configuration, you can also install the drivers
within the runtime post-deployment, but the preferred method would be for
the drivers to be a part of your configuration.) Then it would simply be a
matter of interfacing with the device in question, through whatever means is
provided by the device and its drivers and software, and you can write your
own software or use existing programs to do anything you want with that
device. =)

What's more, you can develop and test devices, drivers and software for your
embedded system in an XP Pro environment, which makes deployment
considerably easier.

--
Matt Kellner ([email protected])
STE, Windows Embedded Group

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
===============================

 

[Guest]

Thanks KM

I agree comparing SAK and XPe is not a good idea. But liked the SAK concept,
in that it lets you create an appliance pretty easily because it had the
hardware+software defined. With XPe from your answers it seems I will have to
identify the appropriate hardware and software pieces.

Regarding the boot images. If I remember correctly, when you create the
appliance image with SAK, one of the cool things it does is that it installs
a special boot loader, that can tell if the last boot was successful or not.
And this special boot loader will switch to the backup partition if the
primary fails. That I thought was cool. Wish there is a way to do the same on
XPe. It helps to make the box a headless box.

And Local UI is what Matt explained. Two line LCD that can be mounted on the
chasis of the appliance or computer. And reports the status.

Thanks once again for the hardware vendor references. I will take a look at
them.

Kris,

The major rule is that in XPe you have everything from XP Pro [almost everything] and + some EEFs (embedded enabled features).
It may appear not to be appropriate to compare XP Pro/XPe to Server OS / SAK.

I have some newbie questions. XP Embedded satisfies the requirements we have
as per as OS functionality/capability.

But people who are familiar with the Windows Server 2000/2003 Server
Appliance Kit will notice that SAK offers some really nice features, like
watch dog timer, web pages for configuration of the computer, local UI or
small LCD to show system status.

So my questions are based on my experience with the SAK (1.0/2.0) based
development.

1. Does the XP Embedded have support for Watch Dog Timer interface (like the
SAK). If there a process hangs the machine, this Watch Dog Timer
(hardware-software module) will reboot the box, if the OS or our software
does not respond in a timely manner. Does XP embedded have something similar?
We need to ensure that the box runs unattended. And in case of a problem it
reboots.

I am not aware of any software Watchdog timer built in XP.
However, you can always implement such and that will not be hard (service, driver, etc.) except some special things like HAL errors,
etc.
Also, there is a few Watchdog Timer software implementation available from 3rd parties. Some of them expose interfaces (APIs).

There is some hardware watchdog timer suport available through but this is hardware dependent (e.g., Intel(R) 6300ESB Watchdog
Timer).

2. Does the XP Embedded support two boot images. With SAK the hard drive
would have I believe 2 or 3 partitions. One would be the working partition.
And the second would have the recovery image. And third was the data. If the
primary working partition failed to boot up. It would use the second image for bootup.

Do you mean the OS has to switch to the second partiton (disk) boot automatically as a part of "recovery process"?
Then the answer is no. It will always require some manual steps from you (end user) to switch to boot from another partiton.
Basically you either have a few ARC paths specified in the boot.ini, or use Safe Mode boot of SP2.
Another approach is to have a recovery CD/USB/floppy/etc. boot supported.

3. Initial box configuration. SAK has the web based configuration screens to
tweak the computer name, user accounts, network configuration etc. Does XP
Embedded offer any such web pages or a Desktop based client or wizard that
can be run to tweak those critical system settings.

There is a bunch of wizards and system/network/hardware settings GUI application (control panel applets, etc.) available in XP
Pro/XPe.
Again, all software peices from XP Pro available on XPe. So if XP Pro satisfies your needs, XPe may be the way to go to make your
device "embedded".

4. Support for Local UI or LCD on the physical appliance box? This would
help the appliance run without the need for regular monitor (true appliance).
It will show basic text, like appliance name and address. And the current status.

Support for LCD? unless I misunderstood the question, it is going to be there if you use proper video card and mmonitor drivers
(remember laptops with LCD only that run XP Pro?)

I don't know what is the Local UI.

5. Any vendors that we can approach that can supply as boxes with LCD, Watch
Dog Timer etc, which XP Embedded capable?

VIA, Advantech, more and more...
Or contact an XPe Distributor and/or SI and they will give you a list of options available to you to meet your device requirements
and system specs.

PS: Is there any Microsoft contact or mail id to post these questions? It
seem I might have to contact distributors of XPe.

http://www.mswep.com
http://www.mswep.com/GoldResults.aspx?00000007=GkRr5Qp48ju10da3Ep28yA==

 

[Guest]

Thanks Matt,

I have explained the backup boot partition concept in my response to KM's
reply. And I understand the limitation.

Thanks for the suggestion on the local ui. I will try and shop around for
those.

One more question - to develop prototypes do we have to work with the
distributor. Or can Microsoft offer help?

Kris

 

[Slobodan Brcin \(eMVP\)]

Hi Krishna,

One more question - to develop prototypes do we have to work with the
distributor. Or can Microsoft offer help?

Why do you need either of them?
You can obtain eval version that contain all options as the retail one (usage time limit is the only difference). With eval version
you can do all prototyping that you need.

For most problems you will find solutions in this NG, or/and you can ask questions here so that we might help you. You also have an
option of taking someone to solve you some pieces of development that you can't do or don't want to bother with.

Regards,
Slobodan

 

[Guest]

Hi Slobodan

This newsgroup is awesome. It has definitely helped me in getting started.

The reason for asking for help from distributor or Microsoft was to get
directional help on the hardware or reference designs.

I am looking for a regular PC box with built in 20 character x 2 line LCD
display. Thanks to XPe I know I can use the regular PC and buy the display.

But when it comes to productizing the appliance, it would help to know whom
I can contact. I did go thru the Microsoft partner list, but did not find any
hardware vendor that makes a rack mount box with 20char x 2line display. Or
maybe I didnt look thoroughly.

For now I will just plow thru the initial prototype.

thanks
Kris

 

[KM]

Krishna

I agree comparing SAK and XPe is not a good idea. But liked the SAK concept,
in that it lets you create an appliance pretty easily because it had the
hardware+software defined. With XPe from your answers it seems I will have to
identify the appropriate hardware and software pieces.

Hardware may be less problem here as XPe would only work on x86.
Software.. From my experience, it will help you very much if you spec out your image requirements upfront.

Regarding the boot images. If I remember correctly, when you create the
appliance image with SAK, one of the cool things it does is that it installs
a special boot loader, that can tell if the last boot was successful or not.
And this special boot loader will switch to the backup partition if the
primary fails. That I thought was cool. Wish there is a way to do the same on
XPe. It helps to make the box a headless box.

I don't know how that is implemented in SAK. But for XPe you could try creating you own boot verification program and
set up "ImagePath" value under the [HKLM\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\BootVerificationProgram] key. This way you can implement
your own logic (e.g., changing boot.ini entries to boot from recovery partition and reboot) on how you handle non-good boot. How you
know if it was a non-good boot, you can specify yourself. E.g., some of your late services or start-up apps can set a flag in
registry (similar to ReportBootOk flag under Winlogon reg.key).

And Local UI is what Matt explained. Two line LCD that can be mounted on the
chasis of the appliance or computer. And reports the status.

Got it.
As you already know, the headless support in XPE.

Thanks once again for the hardware vendor references. I will take a look at them.

That was more software vendor list But you can contact any of them and they may give you more specific list of hardware vendors.

--
Regards,
KM, BSquare Corp.

Kris,

The major rule is that in XPe you have everything from XP Pro [almost everything] and + some EEFs (embedded enabled features).
It may appear not to be appropriate to compare XP Pro/XPe to Server OS / SAK.

I have some newbie questions. XP Embedded satisfies the requirements we have
as per as OS functionality/capability.

But people who are familiar with the Windows Server 2000/2003 Server
Appliance Kit will notice that SAK offers some really nice features, like
watch dog timer, web pages for configuration of the computer, local UI or
small LCD to show system status.

So my questions are based on my experience with the SAK (1.0/2.0) based
development.

1. Does the XP Embedded have support for Watch Dog Timer interface (like the
SAK). If there a process hangs the machine, this Watch Dog Timer
(hardware-software module) will reboot the box, if the OS or our software
does not respond in a timely manner. Does XP embedded have something similar?
We need to ensure that the box runs unattended. And in case of a problem it
reboots.

I am not aware of any software Watchdog timer built in XP.
However, you can always implement such and that will not be hard (service, driver, etc.) except some special things like HAL errors,
etc.
Also, there is a few Watchdog Timer software implementation available from 3rd parties. Some of them expose interfaces (APIs).

There is some hardware watchdog timer suport available through but this is hardware dependent (e.g., Intel(R) 6300ESB Watchdog
Timer).

2. Does the XP Embedded support two boot images. With SAK the hard drive
would have I believe 2 or 3 partitions. One would be the working partition.
And the second would have the recovery image. And third was the data. If the
primary working partition failed to boot up. It would use the second image for bootup.

Do you mean the OS has to switch to the second partiton (disk) boot automatically as a part of "recovery process"?
Then the answer is no. It will always require some manual steps from you (end user) to switch to boot from another partiton.
Basically you either have a few ARC paths specified in the boot.ini, or use Safe Mode boot of SP2.
Another approach is to have a recovery CD/USB/floppy/etc. boot supported.

3. Initial box configuration. SAK has the web based configuration screens to
tweak the computer name, user accounts, network configuration etc. Does XP
Embedded offer any such web pages or a Desktop based client or wizard that
can be run to tweak those critical system settings.

There is a bunch of wizards and system/network/hardware settings GUI application (control panel applets, etc.) available in XP
Pro/XPe.
Again, all software peices from XP Pro available on XPe. So if XP Pro satisfies your needs, XPe may be the way to go to make your
device "embedded".

4. Support for Local UI or LCD on the physical appliance box? This would
help the appliance run without the need for regular monitor (true appliance).
It will show basic text, like appliance name and address. And the current status.

Support for LCD? unless I misunderstood the question, it is going to be there if you use proper video card and mmonitor drivers
(remember laptops with LCD only that run XP Pro?)

I don't know what is the Local UI.

5. Any vendors that we can approach that can supply as boxes with LCD, Watch
Dog Timer etc, which XP Embedded capable?

VIA, Advantech, more and more...
Or contact an XPe Distributor and/or SI and they will give you a list of options available to you to meet your device requirements
and system specs.

PS: Is there any Microsoft contact or mail id to post these questions? It
seem I might have to contact distributors of XPe.

http://www.mswep.com
http://www.mswep.com/GoldResults.aspx?00000007=GkRr5Qp48ju10da3Ep28yA==