Audio problem solution

P

Phil Kopp

At least a good workaround.

There have been a couple of threads recently about audio problems with MM2.
One is called "Audio Bleeps at Transitions", and the other is "Solved? Audio
@ Trans Problem". If you're just tuning in, you should read these so you'll
know what the issues are and how we got here.

For the most part the audio issues involve video clips that have transitions
applied such as a fade. These clips will play perfectly in MM2, but when
rendered to a DV-AVI file, will occasionally have clicks and pops and other
audio deterioration. When rendered to a .wmv file there seem to be no
problems. Of course, if a DVD or Video CD is your ultimate destination, then
you need the DV-AVI file to be as good as possible.

Anthony made the first part of the breakthrough and I want to give him a big
share of the credit for getting to a solution to this problem. He reasoned
correctly that if you render just the video portion of the clip, then the
transitions 'disappear' as far as MM2 is concerned. Your new edited clip now
appears to MM2 as if it came out of your camcorder. So Anthony's solution
was to separately render the video and audio and then combine the two into
the final clip. It worked.

At least it worked better. I still had the occasional 'click' or 'pop', but
it was a lot better than the original. What wasn't so good was the audio
quality. Since I have both the original audio file and the result from MM2
right in front of me, it's easy to compare. There was a definite
deterioration so more was needed.

While I was in the process of editing a project, cutting and pasting bits of
video and audio here and there, it came to me. Rather than 'render' the
audio portion to a wma file, just store it temporarily in the clipboard
until you are ready for it. It works and it works well.

Here are the steps - simplified.

Build your project. Add all the video clips, extra audio/music tracks,
transitions, everything. Save your work regularly, of course. When you get
it the way you want, select the entire 'Audio/Music' track and 'Cut' it into
the clipboard. You are left with a video only project. Save that as
'project_video' and 'Save a Movie File...' in DV-AVI format. Give this movie
a name, like 'project_video', to differentiate it from your 'project' file
with all the parts in the timeline.

When that finishes, start a new project and import the just completed
'project_video' clip. Drag it onto the timeline and then paste the audio
track (still sitting in your clipboard) into the Audio/Music track. Save
this as 'project_video_audio'. Now, once again 'Save a Movie File...' to
DV-AVI format and you will have your clip with all your transitions, the
audio with no clicks or pops or other garbage and it will sound just like it
did to begin with.

This is basically Anthony's solution except it 'stores' the audio/music
track in the clipboard rather than as a wma file avoiding the deterioration.

This works; for me at least! I edited about 20 minutes of video, lots of
transitions and several separate audio tracks into one final DV-AVI file. I
then used that file to build a DVD video and it plays and sounds just the
way I want it to.

One thing is apparent in this process. You end up with a lot of DV-AVI files
and they take a lot of space. To help keep my project organized, I opened
Notepad and kept notes of the project filenames, DV-AVI filenames and
combined filenames. My 21 minute video was built in 6 different parts to
make it more manageable, so I had a lot of DV-AVI and MSWMM files. I cannot
overstate how important it is to have lots of disk space and to keep it
defragged. I have four Maxtor 160G ATA133 disks paired into two RAID0
configurations. Each pair is a different drive and I read from one and write
to another. It is amazing how much space this 20 minute project has used -
well over 50Gs with source files, stills, audio clips, and DVD menu
backgrounds and all that. Save your allowance because you will need another
disk soon!

There are a couple of caveats. MM2 is not a 'precision' video editor. You
can't move along 'frame by frame' looking for a specific point in time. Same
with the audio, you can see generally where the loud and quiet spots are,
but for precise editing you need other tools. I mention this because I
noticed one oddity in this process. When the first 'video only' clip is made
into a DV-AVI file it doesn't end up exactly the same length as you started.
Seems to get a bit shorter. This means I had to adjust the audio clips I
pasted in from the clipboard a little bit. This was no issue for me since I
wasn't trying to edit these clips all that accurately. One or two seconds
either way at the beginning and ending of each section was all I needed. It
is something to be aware of if you're trying to be 'precise'.

One other thing I noticed was when playing back the combined DV-AVI files
(both audio and video in the file), my Media Player would 'skip' or 'glitch'
every now and then. At first I thought the problem was still with us, but
when I paused the player and moved the cursor back a few seconds and
replayed that portion of the clip, it played without any problem. I think
the issue is this: DV-AVI files are huge and the data rate is huge and this
puts a bit of stress on all but the fastest PCs. To test this, I rebooted,
turned off everything I didn't need running and played the clip again. In a
21 minute DV-AVI file (4.5G!) there was one glitch. When backed up a bit and
replayed, it was perfect. And the final result on the DVD is also perfect.
Whew!

Thanks again to Anthony for getting us on the right track, to PapaJohn, who
I assume might add this bit of lore to his MM2 site, and all the other
posters who have contributed. This internet thingy works pretty well
sometimes. :)

Happy Holidays!
 
P

PapaJohn

I just updated the page with the info that Gareth provided. Your new post is
next.

Thanks for making my website seem short and to the point :) ... and for
something interesting to read and digest.
 
A

Anthony

Phil,

Good to hear you've "resolved" your audio problem to your
satisfaction.
Rather than 'render' the
audio portion to a wma file, just store it temporarily in the clipboard
until you are ready for it. It works and it works well.

For those that this will work for it could mean three less
steps. In that there is no need to copy the project,
render the audio or import it. That should also get rid of
two extra files and speed things up toward final.

I could not get this to work for Me. It actually makes
previewing worse. So I bypassed it as a suggestion prior.
Go figure.
:)

"Lucky" for Me, the render time for the audio file is less.
One thing is apparent in this process. You end up with a lot of DV-AVI files
and they take a lot of space.

You might be able to streamline the file process if you
plan for it and get comfortable with the process. I know
I was able to cut out some "safe" extra files saves when I
trusted a direct route would work or I had any potential
problems covered otherwise.
For instance, I do not save the last project file
rendered {The "new project" with the prerenders dropped
into it], nor the DV AVI to tape, which is rendered to
tape and not the harddrive. I close the project but don't
save the changes to the "new project". I can always make
another one from the two render files at ny time.....Well
until I'm finally done and delete the project entirely.

I must not be understanding something, You'll have what
ever number of source files there are for a particular
project but you only need two extra for the prerender to
compile, if you do the Cut-audio method. That eliminates
the project audio render files altogether.

I'm not following why there are six large files for a
finished project.
I cannot
overstate how important it is to have lots of disk space
I have four Maxtor 160G ATA133 disks paired into two RAID0
configurations.

Kind of shoots the Microsoft minimum systems claims in the
head, don't it?
I still want to know what Bill Gates used to make his
Flawless Professional Videos he sent to his family this
Holiday.
Save your allowance because you will need another
disk soon!

I think I'd be trying another, stable, editor instead.
I noticed one oddity in this process. When the
first 'video only' clip is made
into a DV-AVI file it doesn't end up exactly the same
length as you started.

Ok. It isn't my imagination.
Yes, I thought I saw the same thing under the original
suggestion. But with all the details I'd forgotten how
exact I had kept every thing so thought I'd done
something.
This could be problematic for the exacting project with
continuous sync. audio.
I think
the issue is this: DV-AVI files are huge and the data rate is huge and this
puts a bit of stress on all but the fastest PCs.

So how did Microsoft get their's to work on a minimum
system?
In a
21 minute DV-AVI file (4.5G!) there was one glitch. When backed up a bit and
replayed, it was perfect.

I just noticed the same thing though a bit different. Had
a 3 minute project and rendered it to tape twice. On each
tape there occurred one dropout but in different
locations. Restarted MM2, turned off the wireless
interrogator...I just found out this runs in the
background if not disabled, even when there isn't anything
wireless around.... And I had a flawless copy to tape
using the original render suggestion.
So there is still much to say about having the system
clean before rendering.

Though about the amount of space this takes, I have 4
projects totalling about 40 minutes and I'm looking at
about 30 gigs of space taken up.
This internet thingy works pretty well
sometimes. :)

Yes. I concur...Though I wish it were upon more creative
things than working on the idosyncrasies of the computers
which enable it.

Anthony.


P.S. Just remembered something else with respect to the
click, pop thingy...Which if heard you'll, coincidently,
see a clip change occurring in the Timeline.... I read a
comment on a different forum regarding the Axo Composer
Compositing program. One of the answers given as to why
one would want to purchase the new program over just using
the otherwise competent original free version was that the
new version eliminated "clicks and pops at transitions" of
the original.

Thought you'd find that interesting..... appears Microsoft
has some programming to do.
 
P

Phil Kopp

Sorry it wasn't the 'Promised Land' for you, Anthony. So it goes...

A couple of follow-up comments:

In my 20 minute video project, I chose to divide it into 6 different
sections. When I first started working on it, I was using a much slower PC
and it was very tedious trying to manage the project all in one piece. The
subject matter naturally divided itself into different sections, so I did
that. Ease of use was the only reason - unrelated to any audio problems. I
have lots of disk space, so I was being extra careful in saving my work
every step of the way, in case I zigged where I should have zagged. In a
normal one-part project, there aren't so many files to manage.

It is possible to implement this workaround without using the clipboard.
Just render the video portion, re-import it and then add the audio track
from your Collections. Of course, you usually want the audio track in the
project so you can preview and edit accordingly. The issue for me is that
once the video is rendered, there are no 'breaks' or other 'landmarks' to
let you know where exactly to place the audio track. You can make careful
notes on the timing and of course, you can step through it in the preview
window to find just the spot you want. Another problem was that my shortened
DV-AVI file didn't end when the original audio did, so I had more editing to
do. It would be nice to get an explanation of the time difference issue.

Thanks again for your suggestions.
 
P

PapaJohn

Hi Phil,

Just a quick note about using the 'clipboard'. It uses your system memory to
store the info in, and MM2 is memory intensive when rendering a movie. If
the movie is small enough to fit both the 'clipboard' info and the rendering
info at the same time, it would work... if not that small, then you wouldn't
want to tie up a chunk of memory before starting the render.
 
A

Anthony

Phil,
Sorry it wasn't the 'Promised Land' for you, Anthony. So
it goes...

Seems that's my not my destiny.
:)
In my 20 minute video project, I chose to divide it into 6 different
sections.
so I was being extra careful in saving my work
every step of the way, in case I zigged where I should
have zagged.


Yeah, I know that feeling. Ok, I understand now.
It is possible to implement this workaround without using the clipboard.
Just render the video portion, re-import it and then add the audio track
from your Collections.

Yep. That's what I was talking about generally. Once you
know the requirements some of the steps getting there can
be eliminated....Except for those of us Destiny
Challenged, of course.
:)
The issue for me is that
once the video is rendered, there are no 'breaks' or other 'landmarks' to
let you know where exactly to place the audio track.

This is why I suggested originally to save/render the
audio track first. I had that problem but resolved it by
that method....Well, except for any "time compression" in
the first render, it will sync.

And as to that I can only suggest it's one of those things
we have to know is going to happen and plan, best we can,
for it. Since most of my projects aren't necessarily sync
dependent, {i.e., Surf noise now is surf noise a second
later.}, I can do a bit of editting to line things back up
relatively well, adjusting those things that need the
syncronization. I use, as you are, a prominent video cue
to slice that part of nondescript audio before the first
out of sync, and move the track. So far that has pretty
much fixed the rest....Though I have a suspicion the "time
compression" is nonlinear.
Not knowing yet, whether it is a linear or nonlinear time
compression, makes it a bit more difficult to anticipate
without "landmarks", for sure.

Since we know this problem exists it might be something to
build into the video a way that we can drop in specific
relevent sounds a couple of times along the project to act
as those landmarks later... I suspect this is your
suggestion too.
For instance, using the spinning newspaper title animation
I wanted to accent it's stop by the camera click sound. It
turned out that to look right the timing has to be right.
I was able to use that video frame time to cue the sound
to the animation for the _clean final render to sync them
up again.
Another problem was that my shortened
DV-AVI file didn't end when the original audio did, so I had more editing to
do.

Yes, that's how I first noticed it also, and if it wsn't
an indication that we aren't insync earlier on the end
wouldn't bother me as much, I seem to put music and
credits at the end universally, so adding a little longer
clip of music would pose a problem...though it's nice not
to have to fudge....Do the pros do it that way?
It would be nice to get an explanation of the time
difference issue.

Yes, it would. Better to have it go away.
Consider this, if it is a faulty PCM Converter and that
converter is the bit rate calculater, we may be peering a
bit into the problem. As I suggested to someone else, if
the converter is faulty it can't accurately count the bits
to keep time accurately or anticipate "the future". It can
only give a very rough estimate of how long it takes
relevent only to the current portion being converted....in
error. This problem seems to be indicated in the "Time
Remaining" portion of the render window...It doesn't
really work with respect to the entire project being
rendered...as if there is no parity checking against the
known time interval. And since it doesn't keep track of
the over all project time requirement is performs a rough
estimate in its output. The "time compression" may be a
rough indicator of the amount of error in the converter.
Thanks again for your suggestions.

And you, I appreciate your contributions.

If nothing else we are doing science.
Too bad its reproducing the cause of error.
:)

Anthony.
 
A

Anthony

PapaJohn,
you wouldn't
want to tie up a chunk of memory before starting the
render.

Good point. Since I don't yet know what's really causing
my problem with the Cut Method, what's the best way to
clear the clipboard to ensure it is empty?

But it can't be rendering a full movie in RAM, can it?.

And how much RAM is MM2 using that a project file loads up
the RAM?
I've got 512Mb to work with that's suppose to be
enough...at least by Microsoft claims.

What is the truth to this?
We have reproduceable basic program insufficiencies.
Why aren't there more answers from Microsoft?

Anthony.
 
P

PapaJohn \(MVP\)

Anthony,

I usually clear my clipboard by coping something small... maybe just one
letter or word of text... the clipboad can only hold one thing at a time so
you know it's pretty empty with just a few text characters. There's better
ways I'm sure but this one works fine for me.

RAM usage is dynamic and depends totally on the specific project.

PapaJohn
 
D

Digger

Clicks, Pops, etc., recording/ editing/ rendering windows audio media.

1. Use of 3rd party emulated DirectX drivers may cause stuttered playback;
OEM/ product specific.

2. There is a problem in the Windows kernel mixer, which causes short
glitches or clicks at the start of playback or at the beginning of a
recording. DirectX 9+ helps, but does not fully eliminate this condition.
Thus, one must thoroughly check for noise at each new rendering; a real
pain-in-the ????

3. WAV files may legally contain extra non-audio information (markers,
summary data, etc.); usually inserted after the header and before the
actual audio sample data begins. This extra --non-audio-- info may
contribute to unwanted noise, erroneous timellines (out-of-sync), and a host
of other problems. Unless one is intimately familiar with the history of a
source wav, it is simply a good idea to insure source files are well washed
(cleaned) before use; sorta like washing hands before preparing dinner. I
use the following for expediency, but many of todays semipro audio
converters and better editing suites will do as well or better...

StripWave - http://www.lightlink.com/tjweber/StripWav/StripWav.html

All good arguments for building audio and video streams independently;
multiplexed (mixed) only at production times. Also good arguments for use
of tools that support scripted production; Adobe Premier, Avid, Final Cut,
etc, etc... Hmmm...WMM? Oooops!! My, how quickly I digress.<g>

--
Digger

In
Anthony said:
Phil,

Good to hear you've "resolved" your audio problem to your
satisfaction.
Rather than 'render' the
audio portion to a wma file, just store it temporarily in the
clipboard until you are ready for it. It works and it works well.

For those that this will work for it could mean three less
steps. In that there is no need to copy the project,
render the audio or import it. That should also get rid of
two extra files and speed things up toward final.

I could not get this to work for Me. It actually makes
previewing worse. So I bypassed it as a suggestion prior.
Go figure.
:)

"Lucky" for Me, the render time for the audio file is less.
One thing is apparent in this process. You end up with a lot of
DV-AVI files and they take a lot of space.

You might be able to streamline the file process if you
plan for it and get comfortable with the process. I know
I was able to cut out some "safe" extra files saves when I
trusted a direct route would work or I had any potential
problems covered otherwise.
For instance, I do not save the last project file
rendered {The "new project" with the prerenders dropped
into it], nor the DV AVI to tape, which is rendered to
tape and not the harddrive. I close the project but don't
save the changes to the "new project". I can always make
another one from the two render files at ny time.....Well
until I'm finally done and delete the project entirely.

I must not be understanding something, You'll have what
ever number of source files there are for a particular
project but you only need two extra for the prerender to
compile, if you do the Cut-audio method. That eliminates
the project audio render files altogether.

I'm not following why there are six large files for a
finished project.
I cannot
overstate how important it is to have lots of disk space
I have four Maxtor 160G ATA133 disks paired into two RAID0
configurations.

Kind of shoots the Microsoft minimum systems claims in the
head, don't it?
I still want to know what Bill Gates used to make his
Flawless Professional Videos he sent to his family this
Holiday.
Save your allowance because you will need another
disk soon!

I think I'd be trying another, stable, editor instead.
I noticed one oddity in this process. When the
first 'video only' clip is made
into a DV-AVI file it doesn't end up exactly the same length as you
started.

Ok. It isn't my imagination.
Yes, I thought I saw the same thing under the original
suggestion. But with all the details I'd forgotten how
exact I had kept every thing so thought I'd done
something.
This could be problematic for the exacting project with
continuous sync. audio.
I think
the issue is this: DV-AVI files are huge and the data rate is huge and this
puts a bit of stress on all but the fastest PCs.

So how did Microsoft get their's to work on a minimum
system?
In a
21 minute DV-AVI file (4.5G!) there was one glitch. When backed up a
bit and replayed, it was perfect.

I just noticed the same thing though a bit different. Had
a 3 minute project and rendered it to tape twice. On each
tape there occurred one dropout but in different
locations. Restarted MM2, turned off the wireless
interrogator...I just found out this runs in the
background if not disabled, even when there isn't anything
wireless around.... And I had a flawless copy to tape
using the original render suggestion.
So there is still much to say about having the system
clean before rendering.

Though about the amount of space this takes, I have 4
projects totalling about 40 minutes and I'm looking at
about 30 gigs of space taken up.
This internet thingy works pretty well
sometimes. :)

Yes. I concur...Though I wish it were upon more creative
things than working on the idosyncrasies of the computers
which enable it.

Anthony.


P.S. Just remembered something else with respect to the
click, pop thingy...Which if heard you'll, coincidently,
see a clip change occurring in the Timeline.... I read a
comment on a different forum regarding the Axo Composer
Compositing program. One of the answers given as to why
one would want to purchase the new program over just using
the otherwise competent original free version was that the
new version eliminated "clicks and pops at transitions" of
the original.

Thought you'd find that interesting..... appears Microsoft
has some programming to do.
 
A

Anthony

Digger,

I appreciate your input.

Please excuse my lack of knowledge, if you will please
further explain a couple things. I'm not That computer
literate....only enough to drag myself through trouble.
1. Use of 3rd party emulated DirectX drivers may cause stuttered playback;
OEM/ product specific.

I am only using whatever MM2 uses to manipulate and render
video.

Is this relevent to that?

2. There is a problem in the Windows kernel mixer, which causes short
glitches or clicks at the start of playback or at the beginning of a
recording.

Is the kernel mixer used to Preview or render files in MM2
or is this strictly relevent to the Media Player?
Thus, one must thoroughly check for noise at each new rendering; a real
pain-in-the ????

If I understand this yes, it is. But other than your
suggestion below, what, how, does one "check for noise",
understanding that it means find and eliminate. I have had
only inconsistent success in their elimination.
3. WAV files may legally contain extra non-audio information (markers,
summary data, etc.);

Interesting tidbit. I hate "malware".
:)
What's "legal" may not be right. But I'm sure I'm singing
to the choir here. I can certainly see how it would casue
a problem if the computer has to waste time processing
irrelevent information. You'd think MM@ would strip that
off upon importation.
it is simply a good idea to insure source files are well washed
(cleaned) before use;

Would have never guessed, something surfing the wave.
Thanks for the advice and the link.
I
use the following for expediency, but many of todays semipro audio
converters and better editing suites will do as well or better...
StripWave - http://www.lightlink.com/tjweber/StripWav/StripWav.html

As I suggested earlier I think Microsoft has some
programming to do to make MM2 as "pro-like" as It claims.

All good arguments for building audio and video streams
independently;

So do you have any idea why it is when we render
independently there is a differential time compression in
the files?
of tools that support scripted production;

Is this where we would need to know a programing language?
Adobe Premier, Avid, Final Cut,
etc, etc... Hmmm...WMM? Oooops!! My, how quickly I
digress.

Maybe not.
:)
My experience with similar problems had in Final Cut in
fact was an improper CODEC used by that program all of
which were solved with an update. It seems the same may be
in order here, kernal, noise, and hidden headers,
notwithstanding.

Thanks again for your information.

Anthony.
 
A

Anthony

PapaJohn,
small...

Yeah, thanks for the confirmation. Thats' what I've been
doing, I didn't know any other way.

Anthony
 
D

Digger

Don't normally do this, but, anyway, here goes...
I am only using whatever MM2 uses to manipulate and render
video.

Is this relevent to that?

DX emulation usually appears in form of 3rd party plugins/ bridges and
device drivers. Remember, the purpose of emulation is to fool DirectX
applications into thinking they are talking to a DirectX compliant device.
So, mm2 is a DirectX application, and yes, sooner or later mm2 will
certainly meet with emulated devices.
Is the kernel mixer used to Preview or render files in MM2
or is this strictly relevent to the Media Player?

It can be relevant to both, depending upon how and what is being done...

The WDM Kernel Mixer (KMixer) supports audio mixing, effects processing,
encoding/ decoding (AC3, Mp3 etc). So, if using WDM to communicate with
your audio card (s), then yes, KMixer is definitely involved.

The major issue with KMixer is that it adds about 20-30ms of latency to
processed audio streams. Some latency is not critical in AV applications,
easily compensated for, but it can be disasterous for effects processing.
It is also this latency effect that is blamed for the introduction of
glitches and clicks.

There is actually a pretty well written summary of what is involved and how
this all works, scroll downward to the section on "WDM" at
http://www.staudio.de/kb/english/drivers/
So do you have any idea why it is when we render
independently there is a differential time compression in
the files?

There are many factors that come into play when speaking of time
differential. The engineering of the applicaion itself is a biggy...does
the app preload 500ms of audio? Are the files each rendered using
the same timecode bias (clock)? Exactly how stable is that onboard clock
for your audio card? Remember, we are not using GenLock and SMPTE.

Try a little experiment for me...

1. Produce 2 AVI files, and render one as a Type-1 DV-AVI. Render the other
as a Type-2 AVI. Perhaps someone else could provide 1 minute samples of
each type, but, what we don't want is a set of calibrated production
standards.<g>

2. Use VirtualDub (free) and load the Type-2 AVI. While in VDub, observe
the timeline for the entire file. From the main menu, choose "File |
Save As Wave".

3. Using a variety of freely available audio tools, strip/ convert the
audio streams from the sample AVIs; Audacity, TmpGenc, GoldWave,
Sonar(cakewalk), SoundForge...etc.; trialware works for this little demo.

4. Chart (plot) a matrix of the file lengths (timelines) from each
of the saved audio streams.

5. How many of the source A/ V streams are correctly matched in length?
6. How many are within 20-30ms of each other?
Is this where we would need to know a programing language?

Actually no, but there are many repetitive processes that lend themselves
well to scripted processing. For example, as a matter of SOP all of my
audio clips begin with a 3 sec. linear fade-in; fade-outs are standard at
6-7 sec. The clips are normalized to an average of 0db over the
entire length of the file. Given these knowns, it is pretty easy to build
batch processes (scripts) for rendering streams quickly.

And Now, I am off to bed before I become completely incoherent. Not sure
that what I have written here will even make sense to anyone not already
seeing cobwebs hanging from eyelids. Perhaps something will help
someone, down the line.

Happy New Year to all,
 
A

Anthony

DM,
Don't normally do this, but, anyway, here goes...

Well, I'm appreciative that you did.
Thank you for taking the time to answer.
And thanx for the link.
You have helped Me to understand more what's
involved...even though it shows, too, how much I do not
know.
:)

It will take Me some time to find install and use, learn
to execute, some of the tools required in your request of
an experiment, so I can't do that now for you/me. In the
request, You have gotten Me to think about it more
primarily and I believe I understand what you wanted Me to
find out through the experiment...And that I would find
something out. You have allowed Me to see a way to set up
a Method of Testing which I can be looking to do. Maybe
also showing a more accurate program to use in any
pretreatment..If I decide to do all that instead of
returning to a program that doesn't require the dance.

Being more familiar, your comment regarding GenLock made
sense to Me and allowed Me to understand more of what You
were saying previously. It is what I was thinking or my
impression, at least, when making my comments about the
PCM converter. Or that, any compression differential may
be evidence of its [in]accuracy or actual capability.

I'm still unsure as to the actual interaction or
relationship of MM2 within its own operation and the
kernel or DX but I suspect, for my purposes, if I have to
get that deep into understanding it, we're really beyond
what I ought to be doing, if all I want to do is edit
video. Because I can really only do what I'm told
regarding the program and system requirements, I continue
in my belief that MM2 fails to fullfill Microsoft's
claims, for whatever the unexplained underlying reasons. I
can not get Pro quality editting or
output...Notwhithstanding that, if clicks and pops means
otherwise, who needs it.
The major issue with KMixer is that it adds about 20- 30ms of latency to
processed audio streams. Some latency is not critical in AV applications,
easily compensated for, but it can be disasterous for
effects processing.

And I can see then the consequence of the problem in what
You are suggesting when there is, additionally, a header
of unnecessary data before the actual audio. Whether or
not the cause, they could contribute to the issue.
It is also this latency effect that is blamed for the introduction of
glitches and clicks.

And I can see here how those defects could be
indeterminant from edit to edit.
Exactly how stable is that onboard clock
for your audio card?

I understand this is the question answered to expose a
source of error. But for Me, this has to be left to the
System and my reliance on the word of Microsoft that XP
and a PII is adequate. [ I have a presumably capable P4]
That said, I do see the intricate interelation that must
go on.
but, what we don't want is a set of calibrated production
standards.<g>

I must have missed the meaning. It would seem, at least
for "non-proprietary" process or consumer drag and drop
editting, that a calibrated standard would be
advantageous.
Perhaps something will help
someone, down the line.

I believe you have helped Me. And I suspect I will learn
more as I impliment your request.

Again, thanks for your help and time....as early as that
was.
:)

Journey well the new year, All.

Anthony.
 
D

Digger

Anthony,
video. Because I can really only do what I'm told
regarding the program and system requirements, I continue
in my belief that MM2 fails to fullfill Microsoft's
claims, for whatever the unexplained underlying reasons. I
can not get Pro quality editting or
output...Notwhithstanding that, if clicks and pops means
otherwise, who needs it.

This is why I normally do not normally do this...and what follows is
certainly going to raise a few hackles, decrease any chance of social
acceptance and draw a host of slings and arrows.<g>

Media hype, in all of its promise, is often very disappointing. I remember
as a young boy having seen a movie about the Alamo, and when I finally saw
the real Alamo I was sorely disillusioned. Somehow, I had expected it to be
larger than life...it wasn't, and Davy Crocket was never 18' tall either.<g>
Another metaphor might involve a famous white rabbit of dubious origins
named "Harvey."

In my own opinion, WMM is ok for something quick-and-dirty destined for
distribution over the internet. Anything more complex, and it is simply not
up to the task. WMM does not a pro-grade AV editing suite make, by any
means, and I really don't think it was ever intended as such.

I am firmly convinced that WMM is the best advertisement that any competing
3rd party vendor could ask for, and indeed, WMM is its own worst enemy.

"It has always been so..."

Please everyone, enjoy the New Year,

-
Digger

In
Anthony said:
DM,

Well, I'm appreciative that you did.
Thank you for taking the time to answer.
And thanx for the link.
You have helped Me to understand more what's
involved...even though it shows, too, how much I do not
know.
:)
<snip>
 
A

Anthony

Digger,

Thank you for your candor.

If the truth attracts arrows and slung projectiles so be
it. Your honesty can save Many much...Besides, I can make
Armour for your protection.
:)

The fact is "hype", or promotional fraud, will,
eventually, be found out...And I guess a clue was, "free"
is what you got.

Too bad MM2 is only That close. The program is quite easy
and otherwise fun to use. Since it is only that close,
however, I am no longer telling people to use it. I can
not in good conscience recommend a time-waster.

I have been interested to resolve some of these issues
because it was only after I had invested so much time in
some projects that I found out, or am finding out that in
fact you are right about the overall potential
quality....Yeah, I fell for it.
it wasn't, and Davy Crocket was never 18' tall either.<g>

HE WASN'T!?!?!?!
What a way to start the new year.
:-0
:)
In my own opinion, WMM is ok for something quick-and- dirty destined for
distribution over the internet.

Yes, and if I remove the hype as my expectation and use it
for that purpose I can see that and it isn't so bad,.....
if I have to.....I guess.
:)
WMM does not a pro-grade AV editing suite make, by any
means,
I am firmly convinced that WMM is the best advertisement that any competing
3rd party vendor could ask for, and indeed, WMM is its
own worst enemy.

On this point too, in light of my experience, I must
agree.
And though I'm not quite done-in by MM2, in fact now, I am
investigating another program which to this point appears
to be much more competent. Still too early to tell but I'm
seeing some advantages already.
If Microsoft can't get MM2 to do even basic editting it
will certainly enhance Microsoft's position in the market
of Bloatware. Less filling but looks great.
Looks full but only of hot air.....and who needs that?

If The Problems can not be resolved, this won't be the
first Microsoft product I have used which seems to steal
away production instead of enhancing it.
And the truth you speak will not have changed that one
iota.

Keep telling it like it is.

Thanks again.

Journey Well the new year.

Anthony.
 

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