Apparently you cant install in certain ways

[dirty old man]

Microsoft is giving you a discount for your old XP by the reduced
price of the Vista Upgrade vs. the cost of the Vista Full edition.


|
| However, why CANT you use that XP you paid for any longer? Are Microsoft
| giving you the money back that you paid for it or are you supposed to use
| the disk as a coffee coaster and they forgot to tell you that?
|
| Eg, who took your money from you when you legally bought XP and who is going
| to give it back now it is invalid because of Vista install?
|
| | >
| >
| > Ok thanks. The reason i ask was because i thought the original vista
| > upgrade install de activates xp so you cant use it anymore. So when you
| > want to go and re install vista later on you have to reinstall xp and have
| > it activated again. But i guess ringing up and explaining what you want to
| > do they may be will let you re activate again.
| >
| > Ken
| >
| >
| > | >> Who says you can't activate it anymore? I know that product keys can be
| >> cancelled but I doubt that applies here because MS is not trying to make
| >> things impossible for you. You may get a message that the pk is in use
| >> and instructions to call the activations center, but I doubt it. The
| >> activation center may want to verify that you are not attempting to
| >> reinstall out of compliance, but I don't see them not letting you
| >> reconstruct the same system that the legacy Windows was on when you
| >> upgraded to Vista. If you are uncertain then simply wait until after Jan
| >> 30 when we have reports from users on these matters.
| >>
| >> | >>>
| >>>
| >>> Yes but how can you do it if you cant activate it anymore? Do i just use
| >>> win2000 or something because of no activation?
| >>>
| >>> Ken
| >>>
| >>>
| >>>
| >>>
| >>> | >>>> No. You will have to reinstall the legacy OS and then reinstall Vista
| >>>> again.
| >>>>
| >>>> | >>>>>
| >>>>>
| >>>>> What happens when later you wanted to re install vista upgrade after
| >>>>> you cant activated xp anymore because of the previous vista install.
| >>>>> Can you just re install it from within vista since its activated and
| >>>>> choose either upgrade or custom install?
| >>>>>
| >>>>
| >>>
| >>>
| >>
| >
| >
|
|

 

[Rick Rogers]

Hi,

I find point 2 amazing. What's to stop someone installing an XP and not
activating it - one that they borrowed - and then installing a legally
bought Vista upgrade after that? Eg, the XP was a legal one if not legally
obtained so isnt on the list of registration keys that are stopped from
activation but the XP itself is just put in and Vista upgrade immediately
applied.

My understanding is that the upgrade will stop at the compliance check and
not proceed until the existing license is activated. If it's legit, it will
activate. If it's not, it won't and the upgrade will not proceed.

Not quite right. I have, legally, XP Pro upgrade on this computer and no
other. However, should I want to, I could install it on another and
activate it, too. I think you know that to be the case. I happen to work
in the industry so I dont do that sort of thing, apart from what I think
personally, because there is no profit in being hunted down by Microsoft.

You need to check up on the definition of upgrade license. An upgrade is not
a new, stand-alone license to use Windows. An upgrade is the right to
upgrade an existing license that you already own. You aren't getting a full,
stand-alone version, you are purchasing the license to upgrade an existing
one. The existing license, when upgaded, becomes part of the new license.
Were this not the case, why sell an upgrade license for less than a full
one? Read the licensing agreement for the upgrade or, as you work in the
industry, check with the folks in your company that purchase the licensing.

--
Best of Luck,

Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP

Windows help - www.rickrogers.org

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

You are not required to buy a more expensive edition in order to take
advantage of upgrade pricing. You may install Vista Home Premium with an
upgrade edition even though you are running XP Pro. You just can't use the
upgrade functionality. You must do a custom install. Of course you want to
use Vista's Windows Easy Transfer wizard to save you files and settings to
disc before installing Vista. After the installation use WET to restore
your files and settings and then install your apps again.

I suspect that you are interested in VHP's media center features so buying
the edition equivalent to XP Pro would not work for you because that would
be Vista Business. Vista Ultimate would be the only other choice with these
features but it is, as you point out, very expensive. I think you should
just do the custom install with a VHP upgrade edition.

XP Pro has never been cheaper than XP Home or XP Media Center Edition here
in the US so I cannot speak to that issue in Australia.

If you are certain that you are running XP Pro and not XP MCE then doing a
custom install of VHP looks to be your best bet. If it should turn out that
you are running MCE 2005 then you can do an upgrade-in-place to VHP. I
don't question your knowing what you are running on your own computer, but I
just thought I'd double check with you about it.

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

For sure you cannot install the XP on another machine and use it without
going through whatever is required in order to reactivate it, but you should
be able to change your mind and drop Vista by reinstalling XP to take its
place on the original machine. If the XP is a retail copy and did not come
preinstalled on your computer you would then be able to transfer it to
another machine. But that is only my opinion. In any case, the activation
center would try to help you. Their job is to satisfy themselves that you
are not using the software out of compliance with the license and they are
pretty tolerant as long as the user is not trying to run XP on two different
machines at the same time.

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

Every installation of Vista, custom or upgrade, is a clean install of the
OS. That was not true of XP and before. The Vista installer does not use
the file copy methodology that XP and before did. It uses an image copy
method in which every byte laid down is either data or zeroes. There are no
more code snippets left over from the old OS as there was with previous
editions. A custom install will give you the same effect as a classic clean
install.

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

What has changed is activation. Now the MS servers can tell. Moreover they
can inform you that you are out of compliance and offer you solutions to
bring you back into compliance.

 

[Diamontina Cocktail]

It's not invalid, it (the license for XP) has become part of the Vista
upgrade. If you want to have an install of both, you need a full license
for both. One reason an upgrade is cheaper is that it incorporates your
existing Windows license into it.

Correct me if I am wrong here but:

1) I legally buy XP. Therefore I have a legal installation of that OS.

2) I legally buy Vista upgrade and therefore legally have THAT OS.

They are two distinct OSs. In order to install the Vista upgrade you need a
Vista registration key. Is that right?

If all that I have said above is correct (and point 1 is though point 2 wont
be until it becomes available soon if I get it), then I have 2 distinct
registration keys, have paid for two different OSs but the moment I install
the Vista upgrade, the XP one cant be used again.

So if all I have said is correct - and I know it may not be so am not being
facetious - then I have been robbed of one OS that I should have been
legally allowed to install on another machine.

Can you clarify the above for me, please?

 

[Diamontina Cocktail]

Excuse me for "but"ing like a car with dirty points "BUT":

What the HECK is different on an upgrade Vista (the CD or DVD whatever) that
is different to a FULL version in reality? Eg, with XP, if you had an
upgrade version you could still install a fresh full copy of the OS and same
with 98SE. So far as I can be aware, the upgrade version has no lack of
features compared to the full version that actually mean that a discount is
required so that your XP dies. Eg, they are both the same in reality or you
couldn't have installed a fully working Vista on your old XP could you have?

So why are we forced to lose our XP registration? How much is the discount?
Does it apply only, as most things Microsoft, to USA and Canada only?

The way I see it this should be the same as happened when XP came in and you
bought an upgrade version of it. Once done, you had an XP with a legal rego
and you could now go and legally install that old OS on another computer.
After all, you legally bought both so why are they taking this away from us?
Honestly, unless someone can come up with a valid answer, all I can say is
that it feels like theft to me.

 

[Diamontina Cocktail]

Hi,


My understanding is that the upgrade will stop at the compliance check and
not proceed until the existing license is activated. If it's legit, it
will activate. If it's not, it won't and the upgrade will not proceed.

So therefore, if you can get an XP key that is valid and doesnt look like
activation being needed in the near future, you can change your XP key to
that, add Vista and still have your old XP key available it sounds like, to
me.

You need to check up on the definition of upgrade license. An upgrade is
not a new, stand-alone license to use Windows. An upgrade is the right to
upgrade an existing license that you already own. You aren't getting a
full,

Sorry but that is a legal standpoint they wont win on. They are two distinct
OSs and if someone challenges them - and you are crazy if you think the
Euros wont - then they will lose. It is plainly a money grab. I could
legally install my old 98SE after I upgraded from it to XP onto another
computer. I should be allowed to do the same with XP. The fact that I am
going to Vista should never be a reason to rob me of a paid for licence. The
fact that here in Australia for the last maybe 18 months XP Pro went down
enormously seems to add to the questions raised.

stand-alone version, you are purchasing the license to upgrade an existing

Wrong there, too. If I install Vista upgrade, do I not get a full working
version of Vista per the level I bought? If you say yes then per the level
you buy, what difference is there between a full version and an upgrade one
apart from price and the fact that you lose the right to have your XP
licence? If the two disks are not the same for the same level bought then I
am not getting the full benefit of the level I bought, correct? This is the
old upgrade Vs full install argument. In reality you can install a full 98SE
clean from an upgrade disk and same for XP. If the upgrade versions of those
2 OSs werent the same as the full version, you couldnt have done that.

one. The existing license, when upgaded, becomes part of the new license.

That basically amounts to theft of my licence.

Were this not the case, why sell an upgrade license for less than a full
one? Read the licensing agreement for the upgrade or, as you work in the
industry, check with the folks in your company that purchase the
licensing.

Were it the case, why did not previous versions work the same way you are
saying Vista works now? No, the more I read on this the more it smells just
like a money grab to me.

 

[Diamontina Cocktail]

You are not required to buy a more expensive edition in order to take
advantage of upgrade pricing.

Yes you are. You cannot buy below a certain level if you have XP Pro already
on your computer and wish to buy an upgrade version instead of doing a full
clean install.

XP Pro has never been cheaper than XP Home or XP Media Center Edition here
in the US so I cannot speak to that issue in Australia.

Yeah that much isnt true. XP Pro was always, until about 18 months ago,
around double the price of XP Home in Australia and upgrade versions of XP
were dearer than the full versions, too. Suddenly XP Pro comes down
enormously making it foolish to buy XP Home. Why?

If you are certain that you are running XP Pro and not XP MCE then doing a
custom install of VHP looks to be your best bet. If it should turn out
that you are running MCE 2005 then you can do an upgrade-in-place to VHP.
I don't question your knowing what you are running on your own computer,
but I just thought I'd double check with you about it.

It's XP Pro without a doubt.

 

[Diamontina Cocktail]

As to going backwards to XP, the issue of the difficulty aside, be assured
that within 3 years that wont be an option for anyone who hopes to take
advantage of whatever comes out, then. Market forces, aside from Microsoft,
will dictate that.

 

[Diamontina Cocktail]

Thus I am correct. A Vista UPGRADE disk is no less in reality for what it
installs on your HD than a Vista full version (both of the same level).

However, what you are saying is that it is useless doing an upgrade I see.
Eg, pay more and keep the XP licence. Marvellous.

Sorry, that venom wasn't directed at you, BTW.

 

[dirty old man]

You may have a point about there being a difference in Australia
(been there -- had a great time) and other countries outside the US.
But at least here in the US, the EULA is legally binding and enforceable,
and here in the US, one does not really own the software and
one only owns the license to use the software. The right to use the
old software is forfeited when one uses the Upgrade edition and
clicks the "I Agree" button.

|
| Excuse me for "but"ing like a car with dirty points "BUT":
|
| What the HECK is different on an upgrade Vista (the CD or DVD whatever) that
| is different to a FULL version in reality? Eg, with XP, if you had an
| upgrade version you could still install a fresh full copy of the OS and same
| with 98SE. So far as I can be aware, the upgrade version has no lack of
| features compared to the full version that actually mean that a discount is
| required so that your XP dies. Eg, they are both the same in reality or you
| couldn't have installed a fully working Vista on your old XP could you have?
|
| So why are we forced to lose our XP registration? How much is the discount?
| Does it apply only, as most things Microsoft, to USA and Canada only?
|
| The way I see it this should be the same as happened when XP came in and you
| bought an upgrade version of it. Once done, you had an XP with a legal rego
| and you could now go and legally install that old OS on another computer.
| After all, you legally bought both so why are they taking this away from us?
| Honestly, unless someone can come up with a valid answer, all I can say is
| that it feels like theft to me.
|
|
| | > Microsoft is giving you a discount for your old XP by the reduced
| > price of the Vista Upgrade vs. the cost of the Vista Full edition.
| >
| >
| > | > |
| > | However, why CANT you use that XP you paid for any longer? Are Microsoft
| > | giving you the money back that you paid for it or are you supposed to
| > use
| > | the disk as a coffee coaster and they forgot to tell you that?
| > |
| > | Eg, who took your money from you when you legally bought XP and who is
| > going
| > | to give it back now it is invalid because of Vista install?
| > |
| > | | > | >
| > | >
| > | > Ok thanks. The reason i ask was because i thought the original vista
| > | > upgrade install de activates xp so you cant use it anymore. So when
| > you
| > | > want to go and re install vista later on you have to reinstall xp and
| > have
| > | > it activated again. But i guess ringing up and explaining what you
| > want to
| > | > do they may be will let you re activate again.
| > | >
| > | > Ken
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > | > | >> Who says you can't activate it anymore? I know that product keys can
| > be
| > | >> cancelled but I doubt that applies here because MS is not trying to
| > make
| > | >> things impossible for you. You may get a message that the pk is in
| > use
| > | >> and instructions to call the activations center, but I doubt it. The
| > | >> activation center may want to verify that you are not attempting to
| > | >> reinstall out of compliance, but I don't see them not letting you
| > | >> reconstruct the same system that the legacy Windows was on when you
| > | >> upgraded to Vista. If you are uncertain then simply wait until after
| > Jan
| > | >> 30 when we have reports from users on these matters.
| > | >>
| > | >> | > | >>>
| > | >>>
| > | >>> Yes but how can you do it if you cant activate it anymore? Do i just
| > use
| > | >>> win2000 or something because of no activation?
| > | >>>
| > | >>> Ken
| > | >>>
| > | >>>
| > | >>>
| > | >>>
| > | >>> | > | >>>> No. You will have to reinstall the legacy OS and then reinstall
| > Vista
| > | >>>> again.
| > | >>>>
| > | >>>> | > | >>>>>
| > | >>>>>
| > | >>>>> What happens when later you wanted to re install vista upgrade
| > after
| > | >>>>> you cant activated xp anymore because of the previous vista
| > install.
| > | >>>>> Can you just re install it from within vista since its activated
| > and
| > | >>>>> choose either upgrade or custom install?
| > | >>>>>
| > | >>>>
| > | >>>
| > | >>>
| > | >>
| > | >
| > | >
| > |
| > |
| >
| >
|
|

 

[Diamontina Cocktail]

Different to the old XP rego activation in that before if you activated too
many times you have to explain it until 6 months pass from the last
activation and then you are free to go again, correct?

How do I know? I work in the industry. I have customers who don't listen to
advice and I love them for it because I get money from their deaf ears!

People hear thunder and lightning. I hear cash registers in the sky!

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

XP Pro entitles you to purchase any of the four upgrade editions, Home
Basic, Home Premium, Business, or Ultimate. If you purchase one of the Home
upgrade editions you must do a custom install. If you purchase Business or
Ultimate you may do either an upgrade or custom install.

Any entry in the Upgrade Matrix entitles you to upgrade pricing. The green
dots mean you can perform either a custom or upgrade install. The yellow
dots mean you can only do a custom install.

Why are you not seeing how this works? What are we not telling you about
this that you need to know?

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

Not correct. You don't buy the OS, you buy the license.

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

The difference is in the installers. The installer is the software that
ensures that the installation is in accordance with the license.

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

120 days.

Different to the old XP rego activation in that before if you activated
too many times you have to explain it until 6 months pass from the last
activation and then you are free to go again, correct?

How do I know? I work in the industry. I have customers who don't listen
to advice and I love them for it because I get money from their deaf ears!

People hear thunder and lightning. I hear cash registers in the sky!

 

[John Barnes]

Just to clarify, you mean XP FULL retail copy, otherwise you still cannot
install XP on another machine after using it to upgrade a machine to Vista.

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

1. Buying a full edition would not help. You could not use the upgrade
functionality of a full edition to go from XP Pro to VHP any more than you
could an upgrade edition. You would still have to do a custom install and
that would not preserve your apps.

2. You are correct. Even if you choose "upgrade" you are not upgrading the
operating system bits. No matter which installation option you choose,
upgrade or custom, you will get a clean install of the OS. "Upgrade
install" merely indicates that your files, settings, and apps can be
preserved. "Custom" means that they cannot.

3. When you use an upgrade edition license you are exercising the right to
use the retained value of the legacy OS to discount the cost of the new OS,
much like the "trade in value" for a car. With trade-ins you do not get to
continue to use the traded-in item. When you purchase a full edition
license you have decided to use the retained value of the legacy OS by
continuing to run it. The price difference between a full and upgrade
edition represents your retained value in the old OS.

You will have to address licensing questions in Europe to a local MS office.

4. MS continues to refer to "clean" installations on their website and in
docs. They did not rename anything. The custom and upgrade options in
Setup are new because Vista is the first Windows OS that does not have a
text stage during installation.

The answer to your question about apps that you may not have installers for
is to (1) stick with XP, (2) purchase an equivalent edition of Vista or
higher (upgrade would be fine), or (3) find alternative software that you
can install and replace XP Pro with VHP by doing a custom install.

I am sorry that there is no way around having to reinstall the apps if you
choose VHP, but this has been the case with Windows editions for nearly ten
years. If you were running Windows 2000 Pro you could not upgrade to XP
Home for exactly the same reasons that you cannot upgrade to VHP from XP
Pro. There never has been an upgrade path from a business edition of
Windows to a home edition. This just is not anything new.