Anyone using Canon Pixma with non-canon cartridges?


Z

Zan

Hello

I need to do short and long runs of flyers for mailing (mostly black text, some photos)

I will never need to print photos on photo quality paper.

I can get replacement cartridges very, very cheap which makes it less expensive in the long run than getting a colour laser printer.

I would like to know your personal experience using the ip4000 or ip5000 with replacement cartridges continously........ has anyone used them non-stop since they bought their printer? How many have you used so far? Please mention if you refill yourself or buy no-name cartridges ready to go. How is your print quality now compared to the original cartridge the printer came with?

The main problem with using these dodgy cartridges appears to be clogging of the print head. I would be interested in anyone's thoughts on which printer would be best with non-original cartridges. Would the ip4000 with the 2 picoliter droplets be better than the ip5000 with the 1 picolitre droplets, as it is wider and therefore less chance of clogging?
 
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M

Mapanari

Hello

I need to do short and long runs of flyers for mailing (mostly black
text, some photos)

I will never need to print photos on photo quality paper.

I can get replacement cartridges very, very cheap which makes it less
expensive in the long run than getting a colour laser printer.

I would like to know your personal experience using the ip4000 or ip5000
with replacement cartridges continously........ has anyone used them
non-stop since they bought their printer? How many have you used so
far? Please mention if you refill yourself or buy no-name cartridges
ready to go. How is your print quality now compared to the original
cartridge the printer came with?

The main problem with using these dodgy cartridges appears to be
clogging of the print head. I would be interested in anyone's thoughts
on which printer would be best with non-original cartridges. Would the
ip4000 with the 2 picoliter droplets be better than the ip5000 with the
1 picolitre droplets, as it is wider and therefore less chance of
clogging?
I seriously think that all those rumors and innuendos about "dodgy" carts
and ink are just that...put out by the printer companies.

See, they make all their profits on carts. Hell, the whole of HP computer
and everything is only profitable because of HP cart sales! Carly Fiorina
made off with over 300 million dollars all told from the shareholders of
HP, and all that was cart profits!

The research I've done, and as a former purchasing manger/buyer, leads me
to believe that almost all OEM ink comes from only a few places, and they
sell the same bulk ink to online resellers; with the caveat that they can't
say "Same as HP ink!" because that would screw their sales of bulk ink to
HP and Canon et al.

The formula and the ink is pretty basic.

I've been refilling my carts for years and have never had a problem you've
described.
My Epson piece of shit went toast because, it's an epson, not becuase of
the ink. It clogs up in a heartbeat.

Those rumors are ciculated to keep you paying $48 for a cartridge that can
be refilled for under $2.00 by yourself.

Hell, Epson is so greedy for cart sales that they have tiny chip on their
carts that are read by the printer if they're ever taken out and re-
installed....you have to buy a special chip reprogramer for &17.00 on line
to refill those carts! But someone figured out how to do it and is selling
them! Yah!
Another reason why I'll never buy epson again.

I bought my canon because it's so simple to refill them.
 
M

measekite

Mapanari said:
"Zan" <zan5hin@iinet.net.au>
wrote



I seriously think that all those rumors and innuendos about "dodgy" carts
and ink are just that...put out by the printer companies.
Some but not all. I spoke to a guy buying Canon OEM because the dodgies
clogged his printhead in his i960. The could not remember the name the
dodge called himself - maybe a Chrysler? :)
See, they make all their profits on carts. Hell, the whole of HP computer
and everything is only profitable because of HP cart sales! Carly Fiorina
made off with over 300 million dollars all told from the shareholders of
HP, and all that was cart profits!
Well she has brains, looks and money. Wouldn't you like to?
The research I've done, and as a former purchasing manger/buyer, leads me
to believe that almost all OEM ink comes from only a few places, and they
sell the same bulk ink to online resellers;
They are made to the Printer Mfg specifications and formulaes so the
exact stuff is not sold.
with the caveat that they can't
say "Same as HP ink!" because that would screw their sales of bulk ink to
HP and Canon et al.

The formula and the ink is pretty basic.

I've been refilling my carts for years and have never had a problem you've
described.
My Epson piece of shit went toast because, it's an epson, not becuase of
the ink. It clogs up in a heartbeat.

Those rumors are ciculated to keep you paying $48 for a cartridge that can
be refilled for under $2.00 by yourself.
I buy Canon OEM for $9.00 a cart
Hell, Epson is so greedy for cart sales that they have tiny chip on their
carts that are read by the printer if they're ever taken out and re-
installed....you have to buy a special chip reprogramer for &17.00 on line
to refill those carts! But someone figured out how to do it and is selling
them! Yah!
WhoRay for them.
 
B

Bob Headrick

Mapanari said:
The research I've done, and as a former purchasing manger/buyer, leads me
to believe that almost all OEM ink comes from only a few places, and they
sell the same bulk ink to online resellers; with the caveat that they can't
say "Same as HP ink!" because that would screw their sales of bulk ink to
HP and Canon et al.

The formula and the ink is pretty basic.
Your research is faulty. Making an ink formulation that gives optimum
lightfastness, black to color bleed, print quality, image quality, optical
density, color balance and other parameters while still maintaining nozzle
health is not something printer manufacturers just pick off the shelf. Printer
companies invest heavily in ink chemistry and they typically own the
intellectual property of given formulations. HP, Epson and Cannon have hundred
of ink related patents.

- Bob Headrick, not speaking for my employer HP
 
W

WeInk_TechSupport

I agree with Bob, that a great deal of investment is made in designing
the OEM inks. However, many of these designs (which they patent) are
not so much improvements as they are designed to make it difficult to
replicate without patent violation. Now this is not the case in every
patent they make regarding inks, but I've seen some of the Canon, HP,
and Epson patents and it looks like every thing they do they get a
patent for it, whether it has some benefit or not. Given the prices HP
and other companies charge for the cartridges they well afford to
obtain and enforce such patents.

Don't get me wrong, I love HP laser printers (I can live without their
inkjets). But I've used both OEM and 3rd party party products in all
the printers I have available to me and I know that there are 3rd party
solutions that work just as well as the OEM, without killing the
machines.

However, I believe that 3rd party solutions are best used by those who
have the time and abilty to work with their equipment or who can find a
3rd party source thay can trust (referrals from a trusted friend who
can demonstrate their use is always good). I've made 3rd party
solutions into a business and know first hand that their are both well
made and p*** poor sources of 3rd party products out there.

That said, it does not mean that alternate sources can't be just as
good. A great deal of money is invested by 3rd party ink manufacturers
(some of whom act as the OEM co-manufacturer for companies such as HP,
Canon , Epson , Lexmark) in designing inks and toners which replicate
the characteristics of the formulations with patented characteristics
without violating patents. Keep in mind that a good 3rd party solution
may not be just the ink or toner alone, but usually include alternate
media, cartridges and/or processes which permit the 3rd party product
to work like the OEM. The level of involvement you wish to make in your
3rd party solution quite often determines how well it works for your
specific needs. OEM solutions presented by the printer maker are fast
and easy, but you pay the price, since these companies do invest a
great deal of money to make it fast and easy. So the price you pay is
for the technology which makes the printers as easy to use and maintain
as possible with the minimal amount of involvement on your end other
than to click and print.
 
M

Mapanari

measekite <measekite@yahoo.com>
wrote
Some but not all. I spoke to a guy buying Canon OEM because the dodgies
clogged his printhead in his i960. The could not remember the name the
dodge called himself - maybe a Chrysler? :)
Was he really ugly, overpriced and badly made? His momma must have been a
Well she has brains, looks and money. Wouldn't you like to?
Well, yes...but there are a lot of things I would like to do if I could get
away with them...like raping underage girls, screwing cattle on the public
streets, robbing liquer stores when I run dry and shooting out red-light
cameras....but they're against the law.

In the old days, the corporate rape of PUBLICALLY owned companies would
send you to jail.

These days, with government owned and operated by big business, it seems to
be perfectly fine to take all the net profits from the shareholders, and
stuff it right into your pockets.
They are made to the Printer Mfg specifications and formulaes so the
exact stuff is not sold.
.....and, son, when you buy bulk ink online, they ask you what brand and
model you're buying for and match you up with the bulk they sell.
Verstanzi?
I buy Canon OEM for $9.00 a cart
If you're talking about bci 3 or 6 series, you're seriously overpaying. A
tiny bit of research led me to $4.99 per color cart, black included.
 
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M

Mapanari

Your research is faulty. Making an ink formulation that gives optimum
lightfastness, black to color bleed, print quality, image quality,
optical density, color balance and other parameters while still
maintaining nozzle health is not something printer manufacturers just
pick off the shelf. Printer companies invest heavily in ink chemistry
and they typically own the intellectual property of given formulations.
HP, Epson and Cannon have hundred of ink related patents.

- Bob Headrick, not speaking for my employer HP
Right...and Exxon gas will put a tiger in your tank and BP gas will help
clean your valves and Texaco gas will give you better milage....and
yet....all the tanker trucks stop off at the same HESS Refinary depot every
morning from every station and refill their tanker trucks with the same
gas.

And yet, millions of mooing morons will swear they get better gas milage by
using Exxon instead of that "no name gas on the corner, which has water in
it it and is cheap bad gas!", and pay an extra 30c a gallon too!

Son, you really are a child of the 80's advertising mass media consumption
market.

Granted, there is a slight diference in some inks, but 90% of the diference
is in advertising, not physical properties.
 
M

measekite

Mapanari said:
"Bob Headrick" <bobh@proaxis.com>
wrote



Right...and Exxon gas will put a tiger in your tank and BP gas will help
clean your valves and Texaco gas will give you better milage....and
yet....all the tanker trucks stop off at the same HESS Refinary depot every
morning from every station and refill their tanker trucks with the same
gas.

And yet, millions of mooing morons will swear they get better gas milage by
using Exxon instead of that "no name gas on the corner, which has water in
it it and is cheap bad gas!", and pay an extra 30c a gallon too!

Son, you really are a child of the 80's advertising mass media consumption
market.

Granted, there is a slight diference in some inks, but 90% of the diference
is in advertising, not physical properties.
And that is why you hear of printhead clogs all over this NG. And the
majority of the users reporting these problems are not using OEM BRANDED
inks.
 
A

Arthur Entlich

"Son" you really don't know what you are speaking of, about gasoline or
about inks. In my neck of the woods, people like you are referred to
(in polite circles) as "Sophomores" it's greek and it means "wise
foolish" because you think you know a great deal more than you do.

You are correct that gas is often refined at a centralized locale and
that the companies use each others refineries and trucking, because it
makes no sense at all to ship the gasoline hundreds of miles when their
is a much closer refinery or distribution point. However, what makes
gasoline unique and cost different amounts, other than some distilling
properties, is additives. And additives are just that, they are added
to the gasoline either in the tanker itself, at the refinery just as it
is pumped, or sometimes even at the gas station.

And it is these additives that often do make a difference in
performance. There are studies done by independent research facilities
that prove all gasoline is not the same. Some additives improve
combustion, or change flash point temperature, or reduce carbon build up.

Yes, cars will run on pretty much any gasoline that comes close to the
required octane rating for the compression ration of the cylinders, but
that does not mean it will run efficiently and with the least wear.
Just because you may be too oblivious to recognize when an engine runs
well and when it doesn't, or if it gets superior gas mileage doesn't
mean it doesn't do so.

And, to a certain extent, the same holds for inks. If you, as I, had
taken the time to read the patents surrounding inkjet ink formulations,
and if you had any understanding of the complexities of the technologies
involved, instead of b*tching about the $29 printer you got a year's use
out of, you'd be absolutely fascinated by the marvel of a printer
capable of such precision costing so little.

I use 3rd party inks, and I voted against everything I could involving
things Carly F. did at HP, but you are way off here.

Art
 
L

Larry

Yes, cars will run on pretty much any gasoline that comes close to the
required octane rating for the compression ration of the cylinders, but
that does not mean it will run efficiently and with the least wear.
Just because you may be too oblivious to recognize when an engine runs
well and when it doesn't, or if it gets superior gas mileage doesn't
mean it doesn't do so.

And, to a certain extent, the same holds for inks. If you, as I, had
taken the time to read the patents surrounding inkjet ink formulations,
and if you had any understanding of the complexities of the technologies
involved, instead of b*tching about the $29 printer you got a year's use
out of, you'd be absolutely fascinated by the marvel of a printer
capable of such precision costing so little.

I use 3rd party inks, and I voted against everything I could involving
things Carly F. did at HP, but you are way off here.

Art
I have used third party inks for years with Canon printers (going all the way
back to the BJC-600) and I have found that if you buy high quality ink, you
wonr have a problem.

As a matter of fact, the only Canon print head Ive had fail on me (so far)
never had anything other than OEM ink in it.

It was in one of my i950 printers. After about six months of daily use, it
simply wouldnt print Magenta any more.

I called Canon Tech. support and they put me through a few simple test (which
I had already done, and then some), and at the end of maybe 20 minutes, the
tech decided the head needed replacement.

All he required of me was a name, address, and serial number of the printer.

New head arrived within 3 days.

I dont shop for price when I buy ink, rather I stick with what I found early
on, and so far, it has worked well for me.

For my Canon printers (right now 2 I960, 1 ip4000, 1I950) I use ink from MIS,
and/or Formulabs. I do not buy generic carts prefilled, I buy OEM carts and
refill them and I buy empty carts from MIS.


I do NOT mix inkbrands. If a printer has MIS ink in it I simply put a piece
of masking tape on it (uaually under the lid) with a big letter M on it, and
a big letter F goes on the printer with Formulabs.

I do, from time to time change the ink from one brand to another in a given
printer, but ONLY after a good "flushing" with distilled water mixed with
about 10% household Ammonia.

Since January 1 2005 I have printed over 300 8x10" photos, and about 150
5x7" photos (going by the difference in paper invetory between then and now)
and other than a cleaning cycle right after changing carts, no other
maintenance has been required on the two printers used. (ip400, and my oldest
I960).

I do recommend however, if you are refilling Canon Cartridges, dont wait
'till the cartridge is EMPTY.. replace the cart when the indicator says LOW.
That way you never have a situation where the sponge dries out, and you dont
have to "prime" the sponge.

I keep about ten sets of carts, filled and ready, and when there are more
than three or four carts waiting to be filled, I do them all at once, giving
them about ten minutes to "equalize .(10 minutes is enough time for the
sponge to fill up if it was low). After the 10 minute wait, I top off any
carts that have dropped in level when the sponge filled up, then tape over
ALL openings on the carts, including the vents. Then I store them 'till I
need them.

REMEMBER THIS IF YOU REFILL:

Any place that sells bulk ink that says "this ink works in all unkjet
printers" is lying.

There is NO one ink that will work in more than one type of printer reliably.

Strange as it is, those inks seem to be formulated to work in Lexmark
printers. My friend buys generic refill ink at Sears (at least he did 'till
they stopped selling it) and it worked in his Lexmark 3 in one. But then we
are talking Lexmark, not a real printer.
 
M

measekite

Arthur said:
"Son" you really don't know what you are speaking of, about gasoline
or about inks. In my neck of the woods, people like you are referred
to (in polite circles) as "Sophomores" it's greek and it means "wise
foolish" because you think you know a great deal more than you do.

You are correct that gas is often refined at a centralized locale and
that the companies use each others refineries and trucking, because it
makes no sense at all to ship the gasoline hundreds of miles when
their is a much closer refinery or distribution point. However, what
makes gasoline unique and cost different amounts, other than some
distilling properties, is additives. And additives are just that,
they are added to the gasoline either in the tanker itself, at the
refinery just as it is pumped, or sometimes even at the gas station.

Hooray! Perfectly said. >:blush:
And it is these additives that often do make a difference in
performance. There are studies done by independent research
facilities that prove all gasoline is not the same. Some additives
improve combustion, or change flash point temperature, or reduce
carbon build up.

Yes, cars will run on pretty much any gasoline that comes close to the
required octane rating for the compression ration of the cylinders,
but that does not mean it will run efficiently and with the least
wear. Just because you may be too oblivious to recognize when an
engine runs well and when it doesn't, or if it gets superior gas
mileage doesn't mean it doesn't do so.

And, to a certain extent, the same holds for inks. If you, as I, had
taken the time to read the patents surrounding inkjet ink
formulations, and if you had any understanding of the complexities of
the technologies involved, instead of b*tching about the $29 printer
you got a year's use out of, you'd be absolutely fascinated by the
marvel of a printer capable of such precision costing so little.

I use 3rd party inks, and I voted against everything I could involving
things Carly F. did at HP, but you are way off here.

But I would like to give her a :-* .
 
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M

measekite

Larry said:
I have used third party inks for years with Canon printers (going all the way
back to the BJC-600) and I have found that if you buy high quality ink, you
wonr have a problem.
Without real BRANDING by a real manufacturer/formulator; how do you tell
real quality?
 
L

Larry

Without real BRANDING by a real manufacturer/formulator; how do you tell
real quality?
Didn't you read the whole post???

I only use Three inks:

OEM
MIS
Formulabs

Thats it, thats all, out of the few dozen brands I've used over the years.

Those are the ones I rely on.

Im unclear as to whether MIS makes its own ink or not, but they do sell a
quality product.

They DO NOT SELL CHEAP "COMPATABLE" cartridges with MIS ink in them.

There is (or used to be) a warning onthe page where you order the cartridges
telling you that they are NOT filled with MIS ink.

AFAIK there are several places where you can purchase Formulabs ink, but to
get MIS ink you must deal with MIS.

They have other sites (or did have) but all of them are MIS Associates.
www.inksupply.com is the one I use for MIS inks..
 
A

Arthur Entlich

I agree with most everything you say here. If a person is going to use
a 3rd party ink, try to buy for a reputable company with a good history,
go for the ink set that provides the features you need, don't buy
totally generic inks, they do need to be formulated for the printer
brand and sometimes model, don't mix and match in the same printer, etc.
Don't be surprised if you have to alter your profiles with some inks.

However, recognize than OEM inks often do have some special
characteristics, and one may be longevity of the print. Pigment inks,
and HPs PhotoSmart dye inks have good fade resistant characteristics.
And remember that paper is also important when it comes to image quality
and permanence.

Art
 
A

Arthur Entlich

A few weeks back, I spent several hours reading up on ink bronzing.
This is when typically dye inks on glossy papers reflect what is often a
dichroic color off the surface of the ink after it dries. It can occur
with any color ink, but is often most noticeable on black ink, which
often is made up of several color dyes mixed together. It is more
noticeable on darker colors due to the contract between the dark
background and the brighter reflective color.

Anyway, HP has several research papers and patents on methods of
reducing or removing this problem. The science is somewhat complex, and
understanding the causes, measuring the phenomenon and developing
methods for developing ink and paper surface formulations to control for
it weren't simple.

This says to me that indeed "all inks" aren't the same at all, and the
processes involved are both time consuming and costly to develop.

Sure, pretty much any company that makes colorants can make something
approaching inkjet ink, but there are complexities to making good ink
that works well in a specific printer, a specific climate, has good fade
resistance to light, ozone, and other environmental factors, is accurate
and repeatable in color, doesn't fall to a great deal of metamerism,
bronzing, and so on.

Art
 
S

Stick Stickus

Arthur Entlich said:
A few weeks back, I spent several hours reading up on ink bronzing. This is
when typically dye inks on glossy papers reflect what is often a dichroic
color off the surface of the ink after it dries. It can occur with any
color ink, but is often most noticeable on black ink, which often is made
up of several color dyes mixed together. It is more noticeable on darker
colors due to the contract between the dark background and the brighter
reflective color.

Anyway, HP has several research papers and patents on methods of reducing
or removing this problem. The science is somewhat complex, and
understanding the causes, measuring the phenomenon and developing methods
for developing ink and paper surface formulations to control for it
weren't simple.

This says to me that indeed "all inks" aren't the same at all, and the
processes involved are both time consuming and costly to develop.

Sure, pretty much any company that makes colorants can make something
approaching inkjet ink, but there are complexities to making good ink that
works well in a specific printer, a specific climate, has good fade
resistance to light, ozone, and other environmental factors, is accurate
and repeatable in color, doesn't fall to a great deal of metamerism,
bronzing, and so on.

Art
As the Manager of Cartridge World (Oxford) UK. I can agree and accept what
is being said here. Cartridge World as a whole use one of the top research
and ink producers in the industry (OCP, Europe).
Like the oem producers, large amounts of money are spent in formulating the
ink we use for refilling and our own brand cartridges, to be as identical as
the oem product as possible. It is fair to say that due to trading standards
we are not allowed to say that our ink is the same as the original, however,
we can say that the technical make-up is no different to the original.
At the same time we can also say and guarantee (unconditionally), that the
end user will find no difference between them. We also guarantee the end
users printer against any problems caused by using our inks, How many other
suppliers are that confident!
Having used our ink both in refilling and prefills I have had no problems
with the various Canon printers I have owned. I can accept that some end
users have had problems that were caused by the ink they used, Generic ink
being the worse and certainly a no no!. It is also fair to say that problems
can be from other causes and should not be discounted.
At the end of the day end users will purchase what they feel comfortable
with, both in effect and cost.

regards
Dave
 
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M

measekite

Stick said:
As the Manager of Cartridge World (Oxford) UK. I can agree and accept what
is being said here. Cartridge World as a whole use one of the top research
and ink producers in the industry (OCP, Europe).
Like the oem producers, large amounts of money are spent in formulating the
ink we use for refilling and our own brand cartridges, to be as identical as
the oem product as possible. It is fair to say that due to trading standards
we are not allowed to say that our ink is the same as the original, however,
we can say that the technical make-up is no different to the original.
At the same time we can also say and guarantee (unconditionally), that the
end user will find no difference between them. We also guarantee the end
users printer against any problems caused by using our inks, How many other
suppliers are that confident!
So if we get a clogged printhead you will just send us a brand new printer?

Also, once is OK but if you repeatedly hawk your company on this NG that
it is considered spamming.
 
S

Stick Stickus

measekite said:
So if we get a clogged printhead you will just send us a brand new
printer?
Please check the website for your reply, But basically, if proven to be
either the refilled cartridge or compatible at fault then, yes.
Also, once is OK but if you repeatedly hawk your company on this NG that
it is considered spamming.
It is not my intention to 'hawk' the company nor spam, but, rather show a
response from a producer and, also, an end user perspective.
 
M

Mapanari

And that is why you hear of printhead clogs all over this NG. And the
majority of the users reporting these problems are not using OEM BRANDED
inks.
The majority of printhead clogs, from EPSON AND HP and CANON, is due to
leaving the ink carts out too long to dry.

They warn you about this all over the place, they all do, and yet, most
people complaining about printers complain about printhead clogs.

Go figure.

In simple terms, it's not the ink, it's the user.
 
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