Killing VB softly with his song, Killing VB softly...with a song.............

[ProfitMaxTrading.com]

Yes, I've read the Foundation series by Asimov myself years ago. Big Sci-fi
buff here.

Clinton, let's look at this from another angle.

I no longer serve a master (as in corporate america). Since 1996 I have
operated my own business that is more service but does have a few software
products. No servers originate from my office. Our website is simply renting
space on another's server. My programs are all client-side only.

Figuring to continue writing code that people can download and run locally
on their machine (since I have no server of my own and am not producing
programs for some corporation or another), my concern is mostly staying at
the forefront relative to what I do. I'm assuming that I should continue to
build programs that my customers can buy, download, install and run on their
PC's. I'm assuming that there really won't be any need for me to start
programming for a 'server' somewhere. Or am I shortsighted in your opinion?

My problem is that I don't finding myself becoming a dinosaur in technology.
That is why when each new version of VB came out I immediately upgraded.
That is why I use XP rather than 98.

But I don't want to waste time with a long learning curve if I can avoid it.
That is why I wish to be PROACTIVE.

When you speak of 'learn 1 for 3', that intrique me because it would save
time if done properly. So it is that ONE I'm trying to figure out.
Considering now that I've told you of my current circumstances, what would
my ONE to get 3 be? A mastery of Javascript? A mastery of C? C#?

I've never looked at Java, C#, ASP, etc. They're all foreign right now to
me. Have some 'C', Pascal, Fortran, Cobol, Assy experience (though a very
long, long time ago and it has faded in memory). Currently I'm just a VB guy
since 1994 whose no expert but gets by.

Obviously I value your opinion because I follow your logic. How do you see
this applying to what I am trying to do, avoiding being left behind as a
relic while working on what applies to my form of business?

Thanks.
Rick

 

[clintonG]

<snip />

Oh, now that I understand more about your specific background and your
current skill set perhaps the best strategy would be migrating from VB to
VB.NET after all. I would consider it a smart move to go through the .NET
Framework learning curve using the VB syntax and grammar you are familiar
with. Are you familiar with what Microsoft calls the Smart Client?

<%= Clinton Gallagher

 

[Cor Ligthert [MVP]]

Clinton,

Time will tell right?

Right,



Cor

 

[Cor Ligthert [MVP]]

Clinton,

In my opinon do you hit here an important point.

It is my opinion that server-side development is increasingly becoming
dominated by the use of PHP, Java, or C# because all derive in part (PHP)
or in whole (Java and C#) from the legacy of C and as I think I've made
clear client-side development requires the mastery of JavaScript which
unquestionably derives from C. Thus the "learn three for the price of one"
philosophy (341 Trend) which I assert is starting to catch the attention
of those who pay the bills as they continue to consider the economics of
consolidation.

My expirience with people is that they don't like it when there are so many
dialects in one style of language or OS what is needed for almost lost
languages.

If you don't know what I mean with that, I give you the sample not of a
program language however about an OS. We have seen that with Unix (different
versions), AIX, Xenix or whatever there has been and still are. It gives
only misunderstandings, not advantages in the growth of those.

Visual Basic has in fact one current version and has only problems when
there is a big upgrading as now from VB6 to VB.Net, than it is strongly
going on. It is nog going in all directions because different people are
working on the evolution of the children.

Where the scripting VB languages are deriving from the main languages and
are not a dialect however a subset of that language.

However again as you said yourself, time will learn.

Cor

 

[Cor Ligthert [MVP]]

what is needed for almost lost languages.

I changed this sentence to much (this is what I meant)

what you can see as a reason why a lot of languages don't exist anymore.

 

[Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]]

For .NET development I contend the best long range server-side strategy
demands the mastery of C# as it is nearly identical to Javascript which is
required for client-side development. C# also makes it a snap to read and
understand Java making it possible for a developer to easily collaborate
with Java developers or to show his or her C# code to an employer or a
client who understands code and the principles of the economy of scale and
whom may be considering hiring the C# developer to learn and adopt J2EE.

I have to disagree. Java and C# are similar, but they are still different.
C# and Java code are not interchangable. I remember that former VB6
developers had problems with using VB6 and VB.NET in parallel because both
languages were similar but different and thus things which worked in one of
them didn't work in the other programming language. This problem will
likely occur with C#/Java programmers too.

 

[Scott M.]

Clinton:

If you go back and read your posts, you'll find them peppered with words
like many and most quite often. You are stating your opinion as if it were
fact, and that is where I think the flaw in your argument lies.

Where did you come up with your assesment that the syntax of the web lies in
C or C based languages? This is not a fact, it is an opinion. If you
really want to get technical about it (and use some facts as well), the
syntax of the web is based in markup. HTML, XML and now XHTML (which all
stem from SGML) are the syntaxes, DTD's (and now Schemas) provide the
grammar.

What you are talking about is object-oriented programming languages that can
be used for server-side web application logic (but do not have to only be
used for this purpose). These languages do not have any inherant tie to the
web. There may be classes in their respective frameworks that aid in web
development, but the language itself is not client or server specific.

So, we come back to the question of which of these languages should one use
and the each have their own pro's and con's. Yes, it's true that C, C++,
Java, C# and J# share in much of their actual language syntax. So, yes it is
true that learning one of these would give you a leg up in learning the
others. But, I think your opinion has missed the mark when you go on to
isolate VB and seem to say that if one were to learn VB, they would not have
gotten the 3 for 1 that you might get from learning, say Java. If you learn
VB .NET thoughroughly and understand it, you should have no problem at all
picking up on some of the different syntax (and here's the important part)
for the SAME behaviors available in VB .NET.

As I stated in my first reply, history has something to say about your
postulation that VB will go away. Throughout all the incarnations of the
Web, the fact that Java has now been around for a decade (JavaScript a bit
longer) and VB is not only "still here, stumbling along", but it is better
than ever. Couple this with the fact that there really isn't anything that
you can do in Java or C# that can't be done in VB .NET and you may begin to
think; "Why should I bother learning a cryptic, punctuation-oriented,
case-sensitve language, when I can learn VB .NET (RAD) and work in a very
powerful IDE?".

-Scott

<snip />

This topic is not and was not meant to be about which language per se but
about which syntax and which grammar has become the defacto standard for
most languages that are being used at this point in time to develop most
applications for the most significant endeavor in the history of mankind's
efforts to involve themselves with a computer science. That is of course
the Internet manifested in a form useable by humans we know as the web and
the syntax and grammar that which has been derived from C in this context.

Blame Thompson and Ritchie if you must but there's no denying that the
legacy of C [1] has become the legacy of the web and this legacy is best
expressed in its totality in the client and an overwhelming presence on
the server by Java and C# as well as other languages that are very C-like.

This contention is and has been continually proven by Software Magazine's
annual surveys. This year -- again as I recall -- the most often used
languages as cited by survey respondents are Java followed by C#. To be
honest this confuses me as the classifieds rarely ask for C# when seeking
.NET developers. The classifieds it seems are almost always seeking VB.NET
developers. Not to denigrate VB anymore than it seems but I believe this
phenomena to be a hold over from the past (and current) success of VB
itself and the monkey-see monkey-do behavioral model present in most
management processes more so than the understanding of which syntax and
language offers the most efficient and highest use of one's resources and
one's willingness and ability to adapt to change to the current paradigm.

Actually, if there would be a single person to look to in this regard of
the legacy itself it would have to be Brendan Eich the author of
JavaScript [2] whose decision to reuse the C syntax and grammar has
changed software development as we know it, as again, it is the phenomena
of the web that has become the deciding factor and the legacy of C is
rapidily becoming prevalent. I think Google is making this point perfectly
clear [3].

So again, I note many languages do not fit this paradigm and many
languages will continue to be used and new languages will continue to be
developed. Ruby comes to mind as I find a need to learn this language for
certain aspirations I hold in the practice of architecture where I was
formally educated, trained, and where much of my thinking processes have
been influenced by an immersion into classical thought and philosophy.

Regardless, that does not change the fundamental premise of my contentious
postulation, that being, in the course of time the VB syntax and grammar
[4] will continue to be killed softly by this song.

It is interesting to note the wikipedia disclaimer for those recoding the
history of Visual Basic [3]. That there are contentious and biased points
of view we all hold is of no question none of which however change the
facts. I like VB myself but one day I had the "learn three for the price
of one" epiphany and realized I was compelled to think pragmatically and
was therefore compelled to adopt the legacy provided to us by men such as
Thompson,Ritchie and Eich.

That's all there is to it for me as a person who happens to have what some
may call a deep insight if you will as I am rarely incorrect in my
prognostications. People that know me over a period of time have told me
for years I would do much better in the stock market and financial
management because I have an uncanny ability to see a trend early in the
curve and call which horse will win the race. But alas, I am a stubborn
fool.

It is only because I am also a maverick that I have avoided that pursuit
in favor of my current endeavors which compel me to say "sorry fellas"
because it really looks like the VB syntax and grammar has seen its heyday
[5], Microsoft's efforts to retain the loyalty of VB developers not
withstanding, the VB syntax and grammar is in the process of becoming
relegated to the annals of history to take its place as second fiddle in
this symphany of the web where I find myself lucky enough to have found a
seat in the orchestra which I credit to my willingness to learn, my
predilection towards change, and my ability to read the sheet music which
the conductor has made clear: This symphany is to be played in the key of
the legacy of C.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_programming_language
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javascript
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AJAX
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_programming_language
[5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_BASIC

 

[Scott M.]

This is a volatile time for BASIC.

Just to be clear though, BASIC is gone. Visual Basic is not the nearly the
same thing.

-Scott

 

[ProfitMaxTrading.com]

"Are you familiar with what Microsoft calls the Smart Client?"

No. Here's a bit more background as it appears to help me get a bearing on
which way to go.

My career has been mostly in hardware troubleshooting and putting together
large and small scale systems. Over the years they kept getting smaller and
smaller as you know (desktops). So during the latter period of my career I
started self-learning 'C' and wrote just a small number of simple
applications. Using Borland C. Also during this time I learned Delphi and
may have written a small program or two. Never became an expert in either.
Delved into C++ when it was being touted as the 'better C' with OOP and all.
Now I'm not sure what the deal is with OOP.

In 1994 I was introduced to VB4 and have been in that camp since then...up
to the present with VB6. The prior languages seem now to be a distant
memory. I am not able to just pop out a 'C' app quickly like I used to be
able to do. Delphi is even more a passing memory.

Since 1996 I retired from the computer field to concentrate full-time in
Market Forecasting, having developed some extraordinary forecasting programs
that are powerful and unique. So of course I continue to program (in VB) to
put my ideas into data producing applications. When I have a theory about
the markets I wish to test out, I can QUICKLY put together a VB application
to do it. I'd say that VB is certainly a RAD environment without a doubt.

But technology is moving along quickly and I feel I'm losing touch with it.
Although my career path is much different now, I still have a passion for
computers and mostly on the programming side. Going back to 1973, it remains
in your blood as they say.

So I guess all my questions these last few days is trying to find the best
route to take that will allow me to stay sharp in the programming realm.
Your 3 for 1 post started my thinking along these lines because there just
isn't enough time in the day to learn everything the hard way. If I can
learn something that will make learning other important concepts or
languages much easier, that is what I want. Perhaps I will or will not need
to deviate from VB6. I do not know. But I do want to learn new things.

But Clinton, I do have some things I need that does go with my business. For
one, PROGRAM SIZE and PROGRAM SPEED are two very big issues for me. You see,
my clients have to download my programs from my website. They do not all
have high-speed internet service (several older clients are using the slow
dial-up). In addition, some of my applications are data intensive. They
churn and churn, crunch and crunch, and we are left having to wait for the
results to pop on the screen. So SPEED is another important issue.

Now I do not recall whether C would produce smaller code or not than VB. I
kind of recall the argument some years back that once you have the runtime
on your machine, all you need is the small .exe from VB. C on the other
hand produces a bigger .exe file. This still the case? Or am I mistaken to
begin with?

When I programmed in 'C' back in early 90's, I used Borland. So I did not
have Visual C and never have tried it. Naturally plopping a form on the
screen and placing controls on it attracted me with Delphi and then VB
because now I'm putting out apps faster than before. But did I sacrifice
speed? Did I sacrifice program size?

I've said alot above (sorry). Do you still feel that VB.NET is the 3 for 1
direction for what I need now and in the future (in your opinion)?

TIA

Rick

 

[clintonG]

I understand you Cor -- most of the time -- and don't think you need to
bother with typos as most of us make typo errors and they rarely change the
meaning of what people are trying to say.

<%= Clinton Gallagher

 

[clintonG]

Well Scott, keeping it light here but I think it is your rebuttal that is
flawed -- if anything -- your rebuttal seems to be based on conveniently
forgetting that it was C that was used to write the *nix operating systems
from which the Internet and the web evolved. Without the fundamental
recognition of that fact the entire focus of the topic gets lost on those
who want to discuss the capabilities of a given language.

Please note the entire topic is about one phenomena and only one phenomena
which has nothing to do with the capabilities of any language or any
framework for that matter. The topic is about syntax and grammar and only
syntax and grammar and how the trend to consolidate on a single syntax and
grammar which happens to have its roots in the legacy of the C language is a
trend that will in due time erode the use of languages such as VB which do
not use syntax and grammar which has been derived from C. That trend is
occuring because of the return of the primary focus to client-side
development.

I did not mean to convey VB will go away but I do believe in the course of
time the economy VB provides with its RAD features will likely be
over-shadowed by the need to write more and more client-side code which will
erode the utility value of VB because client-side code requires a mastery of
the legacy of C and the use of JavaScript. So when someone asks...

Why should I bother learning a cryptic, punctuation-oriented,
case-sensitve language, when I can learn VB .NET (RAD) and work in a very
powerful IDE?".

The short answer may very well prove to be that your job may depend on it.

<%= Clinton Gallagher

Clinton:

If you go back and read your posts, you'll find them peppered with words
like many and most quite often. You are stating your opinion as if it
were fact, and that is where I think the flaw in your argument lies.

Where did you come up with your assesment that the syntax of the web lies
in C or C based languages? This is not a fact, it is an opinion. If you
really want to get technical about it (and use some facts as well), the
syntax of the web is based in markup. HTML, XML and now XHTML (which all
stem from SGML) are the syntaxes, DTD's (and now Schemas) provide the
grammar.

What you are talking about is object-oriented programming languages that
can be used for server-side web application logic (but do not have to only
be used for this purpose). These languages do not have any inherant tie
to the web. There may be classes in their respective frameworks that aid
in web development, but the language itself is not client or server
specific.

So, we come back to the question of which of these languages should one
use and the each have their own pro's and con's. Yes, it's true that C,
C++, Java, C# and J# share in much of their actual language syntax. So,
yes it is true that learning one of these would give you a leg up in
learning the others. But, I think your opinion has missed the mark when
you go on to isolate VB and seem to say that if one were to learn VB, they
would not have gotten the 3 for 1 that you might get from learning, say
Java. If you learn VB .NET thoughroughly and understand it, you should
have no problem at all picking up on some of the different syntax (and
here's the important part) for the SAME behaviors available in VB .NET.

As I stated in my first reply, history has something to say about your
postulation that VB will go away. Throughout all the incarnations of the
Web, the fact that Java has now been around for a decade (JavaScript a bit
longer) and VB is not only "still here, stumbling along", but it is better
than ever. Couple this with the fact that there really isn't anything
that you can do in Java or C# that can't be done in VB .NET and you may
begin to think; "Why should I bother learning a cryptic,
punctuation-oriented, case-sensitve language, when I can learn VB .NET
(RAD) and work in a very powerful IDE?".

-Scott

<snip />

This topic is not and was not meant to be about which language per se but
about which syntax and which grammar has become the defacto standard for
most languages that are being used at this point in time to develop most
applications for the most significant endeavor in the history of
mankind's efforts to involve themselves with a computer science. That is
of course the Internet manifested in a form useable by humans we know as
the web and the syntax and grammar that which has been derived from C in
this context.

Blame Thompson and Ritchie if you must but there's no denying that the
legacy of C [1] has become the legacy of the web and this legacy is best
expressed in its totality in the client and an overwhelming presence on
the server by Java and C# as well as other languages that are very
C-like.

This contention is and has been continually proven by Software Magazine's
annual surveys. This year -- again as I recall -- the most often used
languages as cited by survey respondents are Java followed by C#. To be
honest this confuses me as the classifieds rarely ask for C# when seeking
.NET developers. The classifieds it seems are almost always seeking
VB.NET developers. Not to denigrate VB anymore than it seems but I
believe this phenomena to be a hold over from the past (and current)
success of VB itself and the monkey-see monkey-do behavioral model
present in most management processes more so than the understanding of
which syntax and language offers the most efficient and highest use of
one's resources and one's willingness and ability to adapt to change to
the current paradigm.

Actually, if there would be a single person to look to in this regard of
the legacy itself it would have to be Brendan Eich the author of
JavaScript [2] whose decision to reuse the C syntax and grammar has
changed software development as we know it, as again, it is the phenomena
of the web that has become the deciding factor and the legacy of C is
rapidily becoming prevalent. I think Google is making this point
perfectly clear [3].

So again, I note many languages do not fit this paradigm and many
languages will continue to be used and new languages will continue to be
developed. Ruby comes to mind as I find a need to learn this language for
certain aspirations I hold in the practice of architecture where I was
formally educated, trained, and where much of my thinking processes have
been influenced by an immersion into classical thought and philosophy.

Regardless, that does not change the fundamental premise of my
contentious postulation, that being, in the course of time the VB syntax
and grammar [4] will continue to be killed softly by this song.

It is interesting to note the wikipedia disclaimer for those recoding the
history of Visual Basic [3]. That there are contentious and biased points
of view we all hold is of no question none of which however change the
facts. I like VB myself but one day I had the "learn three for the price
of one" epiphany and realized I was compelled to think pragmatically and
was therefore compelled to adopt the legacy provided to us by men such as
Thompson,Ritchie and Eich.

That's all there is to it for me as a person who happens to have what
some may call a deep insight if you will as I am rarely incorrect in my
prognostications. People that know me over a period of time have told me
for years I would do much better in the stock market and financial
management because I have an uncanny ability to see a trend early in the
curve and call which horse will win the race. But alas, I am a stubborn
fool.

It is only because I am also a maverick that I have avoided that pursuit
in favor of my current endeavors which compel me to say "sorry fellas"
because it really looks like the VB syntax and grammar has seen its
heyday [5], Microsoft's efforts to retain the loyalty of VB developers
not withstanding, the VB syntax and grammar is in the process of becoming
relegated to the annals of history to take its place as second fiddle in
this symphany of the web where I find myself lucky enough to have found a
seat in the orchestra which I credit to my willingness to learn, my
predilection towards change, and my ability to read the sheet music which
the conductor has made clear: This symphany is to be played in the key of
the legacy of C.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_programming_language
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javascript
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AJAX
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_programming_language
[5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_BASIC

 

[Scott M.]

Well Scott, keeping it light here but I think it is your rebuttal that is
flawed -- if anything -- your rebuttal seems to be based on conveniently
forgetting that it was C that was used to write the *nix operating systems
from which the Internet and the web evolved. Without the fundamental
recognition of that fact the entire focus of the topic gets lost on those
who want to discuss the capabilities of a given language.

Hold on a sec here Clinton. What you've just said here is completely
irrelevant since Tim Berners-Lee's intent and the way the Internet has
evolved was to be platform-independant and not tied to any particular host.
There is nothing in the SGML/HTML/XML language(s) and/or DTD's that even
remotely suggest a platform, much less a preference for a compiled language.
In fact, by design, the web was built to work without regard for platform.
The only requirements were that you had to have an HTML parser and the
ability to communication over TCP/IP.

LiveScript was a proprietary, interpreted language that was an extension
added to the standard HTML parser embedded within Netscape 2.0. Livescript
was so popular, that Netscape enhanced and formalized its "macro language"
for the browser as JavaScript. Now, if we're going to get specific here and
keep to the facts, then let's be clear that ECMA Script is the de-facto
standard scripting lanague of the web, not necessarially JavaScript.

Please note the entire topic is about one phenomena and only one phenomena
which has nothing to do with the capabilities of any language or any
framework for that matter. The topic is about syntax and grammar and only
syntax and grammar and how the trend to consolidate on a single syntax and
grammar which happens to have its roots in the legacy of the C language is
a trend that will in due time erode the use of languages such as VB which
do not use syntax and grammar which has been derived from C. That trend is
occuring because of the return of the primary focus to client-side
development.

But, I think that you've missed your own point here. This is not the first
time in this thread that you've tried to set someone straight on what the
"topic" at hand is and then set your own definition for that "topic". To
dismiss the comments of others that don't specifically fall into your narrow
definition of what the topic is (in your view) would probably be unwise,
since those comments are being made to give you another perspective.

If you want to limit the discussion to the fact the Java, JavaScript, C#, J#
(and others) derive from C and their syntaxes are fairly similar and you
simply want to say that learning one of these is a fast road to learning the
others, then fine. It's a little like saying that water is wet, though.

My impression of your post was outside of what you are now stating your
point was.

I did not mean to convey VB will go away but I do believe in the course of
time the economy VB provides with its RAD features will likely be
over-shadowed by the need to write more and more client-side code which
will erode the utility value of VB because client-side code requires a
mastery of the legacy of C and the use of JavaScript. So when someone
asks...

Well, I think you've missed my point here. Try to follow: If someone were
to have mastered VB .NET (understand its syntax, the full range of OO
capabilities is offeres, etc.), it is NOT very difficult at all to go to a
language like C#, Java or JavaScript because, although I might now use the
semi-colon and curly brace a hell of a lot more than I ever did in VB .NET,
I still have to write well-performing, clear and concise code. It's not
brain surgeroy to learn a new language, when you already know the equivelant
concepts (and in some situations: syntax). VB.NET: "me" equates to
Java/JavaScript: "this".

More on this below.

The short answer may very well prove to be that your job may depend on it.

I think you should have just said in the begining:

"Client-side code is/has becomming/become more and more important to web
development as each day passes. Having good skills there will be crucial to
presentation layer web development in the future. If you have a background
in C-like languages, you should have an leg-up in learning the de-facto ECMA
Script language of client-side web development."

and not invited any responses to your post. But, that's not what you said.
You brought in and questioned the VB language's future role in web
development as a whole and what I've simply been trying to say is that what
you are making out to be a hard thing (going from C-like languages to VB and
vice/versa) isn't the hard thing that you've been saying it is. My point is
that if you are a good OO programmer, you shouldn't have much of a problem
at all. My secondary point was to say that although VB.NET may stick out as
a lone, non-C-like language, its past and present would seem to indicate
that as far as server-side programming is concerned it is anything but being
eroded. If anything, it is taking market share away from those C-like
languages you have been talking about. Sure C# is very popular, but there
are now thousands of Java developers who are taking a look at something they
never would have dreamed of before, VB.NET and using it for its many
advantages over the J2EE development environment. Again, the fact that
those Java developers have to learn new syntax is besides-the-point if they
already are familiar with OO concepts and good programming practices.

Just my opinion...I could be wrong.

-Scott

<%= Clinton Gallagher

Clinton:

If you go back and read your posts, you'll find them peppered with words
like many and most quite often. You are stating your opinion as if it
were fact, and that is where I think the flaw in your argument lies.

Where did you come up with your assesment that the syntax of the web lies
in C or C based languages? This is not a fact, it is an opinion. If you
really want to get technical about it (and use some facts as well), the
syntax of the web is based in markup. HTML, XML and now XHTML (which all
stem from SGML) are the syntaxes, DTD's (and now Schemas) provide the
grammar.

What you are talking about is object-oriented programming languages that
can be used for server-side web application logic (but do not have to
only be used for this purpose). These languages do not have any inherant
tie to the web. There may be classes in their respective frameworks that
aid in web development, but the language itself is not client or server
specific.

So, we come back to the question of which of these languages should one
use and the each have their own pro's and con's. Yes, it's true that C,
C++, Java, C# and J# share in much of their actual language syntax. So,
yes it is true that learning one of these would give you a leg up in
learning the others. But, I think your opinion has missed the mark when
you go on to isolate VB and seem to say that if one were to learn VB,
they would not have gotten the 3 for 1 that you might get from learning,
say Java. If you learn VB .NET thoughroughly and understand it, you
should have no problem at all picking up on some of the different syntax
(and here's the important part) for the SAME behaviors available in VB
.NET.

As I stated in my first reply, history has something to say about your
postulation that VB will go away. Throughout all the incarnations of the
Web, the fact that Java has now been around for a decade (JavaScript a
bit longer) and VB is not only "still here, stumbling along", but it is
better than ever. Couple this with the fact that there really isn't
anything that you can do in Java or C# that can't be done in VB .NET and
you may begin to think; "Why should I bother learning a cryptic,
punctuation-oriented, case-sensitve language, when I can learn VB .NET
(RAD) and work in a very powerful IDE?".

-Scott

<snip />

This topic is not and was not meant to be about which language per se
but about which syntax and which grammar has become the defacto standard
for most languages that are being used at this point in time to develop
most applications for the most significant endeavor in the history of
mankind's efforts to involve themselves with a computer science. That is
of course the Internet manifested in a form useable by humans we know as
the web and the syntax and grammar that which has been derived from C in
this context.

Blame Thompson and Ritchie if you must but there's no denying that the
legacy of C [1] has become the legacy of the web and this legacy is best
expressed in its totality in the client and an overwhelming presence on
the server by Java and C# as well as other languages that are very
C-like.

This contention is and has been continually proven by Software
Magazine's annual surveys. This year -- again as I recall -- the most
often used languages as cited by survey respondents are Java followed by
C#. To be honest this confuses me as the classifieds rarely ask for C#
when seeking .NET developers. The classifieds it seems are almost always
seeking VB.NET developers. Not to denigrate VB anymore than it seems but
I believe this phenomena to be a hold over from the past (and current)
success of VB itself and the monkey-see monkey-do behavioral model
present in most management processes more so than the understanding of
which syntax and language offers the most efficient and highest use of
one's resources and one's willingness and ability to adapt to change to
the current paradigm.

Actually, if there would be a single person to look to in this regard of
the legacy itself it would have to be Brendan Eich the author of
JavaScript [2] whose decision to reuse the C syntax and grammar has
changed software development as we know it, as again, it is the
phenomena of the web that has become the deciding factor and the legacy
of C is rapidily becoming prevalent. I think Google is making this point
perfectly clear [3].

So again, I note many languages do not fit this paradigm and many
languages will continue to be used and new languages will continue to be
developed. Ruby comes to mind as I find a need to learn this language
for certain aspirations I hold in the practice of architecture where I
was formally educated, trained, and where much of my thinking processes
have been influenced by an immersion into classical thought and
philosophy.

Regardless, that does not change the fundamental premise of my
contentious postulation, that being, in the course of time the VB syntax
and grammar [4] will continue to be killed softly by this song.

It is interesting to note the wikipedia disclaimer for those recoding
the history of Visual Basic [3]. That there are contentious and biased
points of view we all hold is of no question none of which however
change the facts. I like VB myself but one day I had the "learn three
for the price of one" epiphany and realized I was compelled to think
pragmatically and was therefore compelled to adopt the legacy provided
to us by men such as Thompson,Ritchie and Eich.

That's all there is to it for me as a person who happens to have what
some may call a deep insight if you will as I am rarely incorrect in my
prognostications. People that know me over a period of time have told me
for years I would do much better in the stock market and financial
management because I have an uncanny ability to see a trend early in the
curve and call which horse will win the race. But alas, I am a stubborn
fool.

It is only because I am also a maverick that I have avoided that pursuit
in favor of my current endeavors which compel me to say "sorry fellas"
because it really looks like the VB syntax and grammar has seen its
heyday [5], Microsoft's efforts to retain the loyalty of VB developers
not withstanding, the VB syntax and grammar is in the process of
becoming relegated to the annals of history to take its place as second
fiddle in this symphany of the web where I find myself lucky enough to
have found a seat in the orchestra which I credit to my willingness to
learn, my predilection towards change, and my ability to read the sheet
music which the conductor has made clear: This symphany is to be played
in the key of the legacy of C.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_programming_language
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javascript
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AJAX
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_programming_language
[5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_BASIC

 

[Steven Bazeley]

symphony

<snip />

This topic is not and was not meant to be about which language per se but
about which syntax and which grammar has become the defacto standard for
most languages that are being used at this point in time to develop most
applications for the most significant endeavor in the history of mankind's
efforts to involve themselves with a computer science. That is of course the
Internet manifested in a form useable by humans we know as the web and the
syntax and grammar that which has been derived from C in this context.

Blame Thompson and Ritchie if you must but there's no denying that the
legacy of C [1] has become the legacy of the web and this legacy is best
expressed in its totality in the client and an overwhelming presence on the
server by Java and C# as well as other languages that are very C-like.

This contention is and has been continually proven by Software Magazine's
annual surveys. This year -- again as I recall -- the most often used
languages as cited by survey respondents are Java followed by C#. To be
honest this confuses me as the classifieds rarely ask for C# when seeking
.NET developers. The classifieds it seems are almost always seeking VB.NET
developers. Not to denigrate VB anymore than it seems but I believe this
phenomena to be a hold over from the past (and current) success of VB itself
and the monkey-see monkey-do behavioral model present in most management
processes more so than the understanding of which syntax and language offers
the most efficient and highest use of one's resources and one's willingness
and ability to adapt to change to the current paradigm.

Actually, if there would be a single person to look to in this regard of the
legacy itself it would have to be Brendan Eich the author of JavaScript [2]
whose decision to reuse the C syntax and grammar has changed software
development as we know it, as again, it is the phenomena of the web that has
become the deciding factor and the legacy of C is rapidily becoming
prevalent. I think Google is making this point perfectly clear [3].

So again, I note many languages do not fit this paradigm and many languages
will continue to be used and new languages will continue to be developed.
Ruby comes to mind as I find a need to learn this language for certain
aspirations I hold in the practice of architecture where I was formally
educated, trained, and where much of my thinking processes have been
influenced by an immersion into classical thought and philosophy.

Regardless, that does not change the fundamental premise of my contentious
postulation, that being, in the course of time the VB syntax and grammar [4]
will continue to be killed softly by this song.

It is interesting to note the wikipedia disclaimer for those recoding the
history of Visual Basic [3]. That there are contentious and biased points of
view we all hold is of no question none of which however change the facts. I
like VB myself but one day I had the "learn three for the price of one"
epiphany and realized I was compelled to think pragmatically and was
therefore compelled to adopt the legacy provided to us by men such as
Thompson,Ritchie and Eich.

That's all there is to it for me as a person who happens to have what some
may call a deep insight if you will as I am rarely incorrect in my
prognostications. People that know me over a period of time have told me for
years I would do much better in the stock market and financial management
because I have an uncanny ability to see a trend early in the curve and call
which horse will win the race. But alas, I am a stubborn fool.

It is only because I am also a maverick that I have avoided that pursuit in
favor of my current endeavors which compel me to say "sorry fellas" because
it really looks like the VB syntax and grammar has seen its heyday [5],
Microsoft's efforts to retain the loyalty of VB developers not withstanding,
the VB syntax and grammar is in the process of becoming relegated to the
annals of history to take its place as second fiddle in this symphany of the
web where I find myself lucky enough to have found a seat in the orchestra
which I credit to my willingness to learn, my predilection towards change,
and my ability to read the sheet music which the conductor has made clear:
This symphany is to be played in the key of the legacy of C.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_programming_language
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javascript
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AJAX
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_programming_language
[5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_BASIC

 

[clintonG]

Actually, now I don't think VB.NET will prove as useful as it seemed. While
your already familiar with the VB syntax and grammar you have to learn OOP
as applied to the .NET Framework. The stumbling block is the fact that the
customer would have to have the .NET Framework installed on their machine or
download the framework which is 20MB. We can deploy the framework with the
application itself but it still weighs 20MB plus the weight of the
application. Bad news for dial-up customers.

On the other hand, C/C++ applications do not require the framework and run
fast but I don't know if you want to spend what could take perhaps a year to
learn the Windows 32 API and master all of the build and deployment issues
involved. Using VB6 was much much easier it seems as the run-time was much
lighter. Microsoft has stated they will continue to support VB6 but there
will be no more updates as I understand it.

So you're in a real pickle.

One of the reasons I've been so supportive of the learn three for the price
of one philosophy (341) is because I picked up on two trends early on. The
first trend was hosted applications that run on the web which was a business
model that was not seen by many as viable when the .com era crashed and
burned. By 'many' I mean those that controlled the funding who for the most
part did not understand computer science, never did, and clearly never will
because the second trend is the resurgence of hosted applications proving
the naysayers dead wrong. The rapid adoption of AJAX is already spawing all
kinds of hosted applications and this trend will explode over the next
couple of years. The point is in this regard, the use of asynchronous
methods written using JavaScript and an XML data structure enables web
applications to be developed to look and feel like Windows applications
reducing the appearance of trips back to the server to refresh the page. It
is an allusion in some regards but an important allusion.

So it seems you can get out of the pickel if you can develop hosted
applications. The SmartClient architecture I referred to is somewhat of a
hybrid. On the one hand it is a Windows application and on the other it
interacts with the web to update itself for example. Still, SmartClient
architecture requires the .NET framework on the desktop so your right back
to the pickle.

Now it you learned C# and the .NET Framework and sold hosted applications
you could enjoy the benefits of 341 as the trend for web development is as
I've stated as the use of asynchronous JavaScript XML is written in legacy C
syntax and grammar allowing a developer to optimize their time. That's
really all 341 is about. The consolidation of one's time by using a single
syntax and grammar for both server-side and client-side development.

VB.NET is just as useful as C# on the server but what of all of the
client-side JavaScript that must be learned and mastered? There's a division
of labor in that regard that I contend is greatly reduced or goes away
entirely when using C# rather than VB.NET and with the trend towards an
asynchronous application architecture the 341 philosophy will likely become
a matter of greater concern to a greater number of developers that consider
341 in the context I have put forth.

<%= Clinton Gallagher

 

[clintonG]

<snip />

You make some very valid points and yes I agree I should be referring to
JavaScript as ECMAScript. However when you say...

Just my opinion...I could be wrong.

I couldn't agree more.

Have you not observed the phenomena of developers who are highly skilled
trying to give a presentation using C# when they spend most of their time in
VB.NET and vice a versa? It is almost hilarious. Our personal preferences
emerge as matters of convenience, habit, and our prediliction for one thing
or another. When we try to extend ourselves into another realm our thought
processes bounce back and forth, we stumble around and often give up only to
settle with what we are most comfortable with. For example...

Surely you have seen The Godfather Part II? Michael meets Tatalia the pimp
and the corrupt cop in the restaurant. They try to speak in Sicilian
presumably because neither wants the cop to understand what they are
discussing. Michael has spent most of his life speaking English and
struggles with the Sicilian syntax and the grammar, becomes frustrated
because he is not achieving his objective and reverts by blurting out what
he is trying to say in English. Then of course he goes to the bathroom and
comes back with a gun and shoots both of the VB developers he was having
dinner with a few moments earlier

When it comes to web development I am arguing that we can avoid this
frustrating phenomena if we adopt the use of a single syntax and grammar.

<%= Clinton Gallagher

 

[Joseph Ferris]

Have you not observed the phenomena of developers who are highly skilled
trying to give a presentation using C# when they spend most of their time in
VB.NET and vice a versa? It is almost hilarious. Our personal preferences
emerge as matters of convenience, habit, and our prediliction for one thing
or another. When we try to extend ourselves into another realm our thought
processes bounce back and forth, we stumble around and often give up only to
settle with what we are most comfortable with. For example...

That is completely untrue to lay forth as a generalization. The point
that Scott was trying to make is more of a statement of if you
understand the underlying fundamentals of development, languages are
just tools that you can use. Syntax differences between languages is
actually quite trivial, for 90% of all languages out there.

I am equally comfortable and skilled with either VB.Net or C#. What
drives my choice? Most often it is requirements for a project. Being
able to completely understand more than one of the languages in the
VS.Net family is not as uncommon as you have been led to believe.

Yes, preference is involved. I prefer the "look" of C# code, but the
fact that I can crank out the code in VB.Net faster. A lot of times,
this leads to prototyping in VB.Net and developing in C#.

When it comes to web development I am arguing that we can avoid this
frustrating phenomena if we adopt the use of a single syntax and grammar.

You seem to be the one that is frustrated. The whole concept of "one
language" whether for web development or any other type of development
is not going to happen anytime soon - and for good reason! Languages
are created, driven, and implemented by specific needs. That is not to
say that what you can do in one, you can't do in another (although it
can!). Javascript, for example, is an integral part of AJAX,
obviously. Are you going to write the web services in JavaScript?

Regardless of what people are being fed in the latest issue of SD
Times, AJAX will not be the end-all of other types of application
development. There will always be the need for a diverse variety of
applications. If I need to feed a large amount of data into a
statistical analysis engine, why would the client want to do it in a
browser? Sure they might, but the users (the people who ultimately
sign the checks) aren't the buzzword groupies that developers (and
other IT folks) tend to be. For my last client, we had an AJAX driven
intranet site that would allow traders on the floor of the Stock
Exchange to directly access portfolios and perform reporting and
statistical analysis of trends. In implementation, the AJAX part that
is used from the client is a very small part of the overall coding
effort. It is just a presentation layer. The code behind the calls is
the business layer, and the business layer is almost always more
complex.

As an aside, you should always have as strong a background in as
diverse a skillset as possible without diminishing any single one of
them. In other words, don't put all of you money on a single language,
idiom, methodolgy, etc. if you want to have security in the industry.

Rant off,

Joseph

 

[Scott M.]

Have you not observed the phenomena of developers who are highly skilled

trying to give a presentation using C# when they spend most of their time
in VB.NET and vice a versa? It is almost hilarious. Our personal
preferences emerge as matters of convenience, habit, and our prediliction
for one thing or another. When we try to extend ourselves into another
realm our thought processes bounce back and forth, we stumble around and
often give up only to settle with what we are most comfortable with. For
example...

No, I haven't. The fact that you have doesn't say anything about an
industry or a language in general (it might say more about the quality of
the "highly skilled" developers you are referring to).

 

[clintonG]

I haven't been feeling well the last two days. I've made my point and you
and others have made yours. So its time to move on okay? Time will tell
ainna?

<%= Clinton Gallagher

 

[Scott M.]

You asked a question. I was just answering.

Hope you are feeling better.

 

[clintonG]

Thanks. Too much coffee. It feels like I've burned a hole in my esophagus.
Must be because I code using legacy C syntax and grammar
See you around...

<%= Clinton Gallagher