Killing VB softly with his song, Killing VB softly...with a song.............

C

clintonG

This is not about starting a fight but an observation that seems to be
proving itself on its own merit and is therefore simply a point of
conjecture.

I did not get serious about writing software until I learned ASP/VBS (if
that can be called writing software) as my focus was and remains for the
most part developing for the web. Even though I have had a programming class
in C which I somehow passed, JavaScript always gave me the heeby jeebies as
the syntax and grammar were foreign to me, different than ASP/VBS and those
curly braces and the semi-colon stuff seemed noisy and uneccessary.

When I decided to learn ASP.NET I began to do so using C# as I had an
epiphany. That is, both C# and JavaScript as well as Java all derive from
the legacy of C. So learning one language well meant I learned three for
the price of one. I came to understand I would never master web development
if I did not master JavaScript on the client. I also understood I would
never master web development if I did not master C# on the server. I kne
doing so meant I could read and understand Java. Perhaps some day to work on
a different platform. End of that discussion for me. Learn three for the
price of one became my mantra sung in the key og C# which by the way has
seven sharps or seven flats depending which direction you move on the scale.

That pursuit of efficiency was in fact my rationale for learning ASP/VBS as
I told myself I could simply learn one dialect and then reuse it to move up
the VB stack from VBS to VBA and eventually build solutions using VB itself.
The presence of ASP.NET changed that entire paradigm however. The epiphany
changed me and I began my pursuit to learn three for the price of one.

The point is, the future has a way of changing our grand plans. Microsoft
has done much recently to help VB developers migrate to .NET. Even if that
were argued one must ask where VB developers would or could go if they
decided to jump this ship? PHP? Hardy Har Har. Java? Get out the meds. C#.
Uh, not in this lifetime many have chimed. At least not until recent changes
of those grand plans which motivates me to write this note.

With the future of web development rapidly becoming ingrained with the
benefits of what we once called remote scripting which has been rebranded as
A(synchronous) JA(vascript) X(ml) it seems learning three for the price of
one is a song that has hit the charts with a bullet.

Most of what I have read when lured into the VB or C# discussions has been
comprised of two considerations for the most part;

1.) VB developers do not like the syntax and grammar of JavaScript (whoops,
I mean C#)
2.) The framework is the same for either.

So where do VB web developers go from here?

I contend again for the most part VB is a dialect that the nature of
progress considers an endangered species. Unless the web decides to go away
the predator (change) will continue to erode the value of VB which is in
effect already being killed off softly with a reminiscent analogy to the old
song by what's her name (Roberta Flack) which was later made to be FUBAR by
the Fugees.

Some VB developers have mastered JavaScript, this is understood and
admirable. Microsoft can only do so much to keep VB alive but it really
seems the present and most certainly the future depends on efficiency more
so than eve. VB developers as I see it will be increasingly compelled to
adopt the legacy of the C syntax and grammar. AJAX just about demands this
does it not? This is not to say the desktop is going away and Windows Forms
applications will continue to be developed of course but will employers or
any other context one must consider with regard to optimizing one's
knowledge and time not be of considerable importance?

In that regard I conted, the tune that must be sung is "learn three for the
price of one."
I can only wonder if in time, more VB developers will also choose to sing
this tune or will they wait until the market compels them to sing in a
different key whether they would like to or not? Time will tell. Either way,
we'll be waiting to see more of ya' all over at
news://microsoft.public.language.csharp :)


<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/
 
S

Scott M.

Wow, so much to respond to and so little time...

FACT: VB has been around in one form or another for over 20 years. I doubt
it will be going extinct anytime soon.
FACT: There are millions and millions of VB developers...See fact #1

You seem to base your opinion on the premise that VB developers
don't/won't/can't learn or know C-like languages and that's just not true
for a large majority of them. I, myself do most of my development in VB
..NET (and VB 6.0 before that and VB 5.0 before that ..... and BASIC before
that), but I am also well-versed in JavaScript and C#. I just prefer VB
..NET for its lack of case-sensitivity and the fact that it is less
punctuation oriented - {}: [](). Some say that the use of this punctuation
clears the code of the verbose keywords that VB uses. That's there opinion
and they are entitled to it, but to say that VB is very clear about what is
happening because the keyword indicates the intention is just as valid of an
opinion.

Where does a VB developer go from here is your question? To the next
evolution of VB when it comes (and it will).
 
C

Cor Ligthert [MVP]

Hi,

I thought a lot of text not untrue who is writing this. And at the end I saw
it Clinton. I answer you with a metaphor.

Clinton, have one time a longer Holliday and go to Western Europe. I don't
know what you like, however when you tell that, than I can give you maybe a
nice advice.

Let say you start for this explanation at Paris, you go to the nice musea,
look to the expensive shops, go to the markets and have a visit at the Night
live. In Paris people is almost only speaking French.

Then you go to London as well a nice city and you try to taste the life of
London, it has something that I think you cannot describe, people are only
speaking English there.

Than you go to Rome (not the best route however for this text). Very nice
historic buildings and fine food and pleasant way of behaviour from people,
completely different from the other cities again, people are speaking
Italian and those have the habit trying to understand you when you try to
speak English because they are almost forever very friendly.

The last city (normally better to start with as American however it is for
this message) is Amsterdam. It has a nice historic city, very good musea and
good and exiting nightlife. The food you can not compare with Rome and Paris
or the Asian food from London (my own opinion). However *you* will not be
able to speak another language than English in Amsterdam, while the
inhabitants are speaking Dutch to each other.

Most Europeans understand each other because the languages in those
countries differ for you a lot, however not as much that people cannot
communicate with each other because the differences are not that much.
(People from some countries can this easier than from other countries)

This metaphor to show you that a lot of languages would not be a problem, as
long as they are not completely different where by instance"close" means in
the other language "open" because than you have big trouble.

To give such an examnple of this. Plat Duits means in Dutch "Bad German",
while in the German language it means "Flatland German", almost every
Dutchman is very angry when a German says, your language sounds the same as
"Plat" German.

Not one of the countries will give up its own language although some English
speaking people have sometimes that idea.

I hope that it answers a little bit your question.

Cor
 
C

clintonG

<snip />

You missed the point Cor but the use of analogy is often useful so I will
respond to that analogy.

If the rest of the world decided to use English all the time especially for
very important business processes the people who speak Dutch or German would
be compelled to learn English. Has this not happened? Yes, it has.

In time -- perhaps a very long time but it will happen anyway -- Dutch or
German would only be spoken in the home to talk to grandma and the kids.
Eventually, grandma passes away and the kids grow up and want to go out into
the real world which requires them to speak English to go to school, to do
business, whatever. Those that do not learn to read, write and speak English
well will always be at a disadvantage. In time, they will not even be able
to get any work at all. Maybe it will take a long time but this is how it
will happen because this is how it has already happened.

And this is what has just happened in web development because the use of
AJAX had made it clear that everybody must now learn to master JavaScript
more so than ever before or their websites will not be as useful or function
as well as others.

So my point is the big question, "Even though you know how to speak Dutch
and German and English very well what about the rest of the world? Why keep
talking in Dutch and German when learning one language such as English
allows you to talk to many many more people? That is what is going on in the
world today. Needing to master JavaScript in web development is like needing
to master English. Some are going to make it and some are not. Time will
tell how important it is but I believe it is going to give many VB
developers a difficult time.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
 
C

clintonG

<snip />

Time will tell of course but I do think that as time moves forward the need
to master JavaScript will become increasingly evident and more pressing to a
greater number of people doing web development. Perhaps we'll see push
button monkey code solutions evolve. Who knows? All I know is it made a lot
of sense to me to adopt my learn three for the price of one philosophy which
in itself is enough work as it is and I think client-side development is
going to erode the use of VB in this context and only in this context
because so many others -- yourself clearly excepted -- have expressed a
disdain for the syntax and grammar which derives from C. Its not like other
languages will go away but they most certainly become relagated to niche
status as we've seen. It also not like there will not be a need to learn new
languages as I now must also consider learning Ruby for some specific
applications I may be developing in the future.

So again, time will tell noting I appreciate the lack of nitpicking that
could have developed around a simple premise that being the increased usage
of JavaScript in due time will kill off the popularity of the VB syntax and
grammar. Perhaps more so in ASP/VBS than .NET. Again, time will tell and
we'll have to see where this AJAX trend leads but for me there seems to be
no question that the rich user interface is the goal that has brought
JavaScript roaring back to life and XML isn't going anywhere soon so I'm
glad I decided to learn C# as it has made it much easier to read,
understand, and use JavaScript for having done so.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
 
M

m.posseth

Ahum if i may step in the analogy ....


verry short

then VB is mandarine Chinese ( or Spanish if you like ) You speak
English ( C# ) however despite as what you might think there are a lot more
people speaking Spanish or Chinese in the world as there are English
speaking people in the world

P.S.

I program Basic since 13 years of age ( now 31 ) i just love the language ,
and i program a lot faster in VB.Net as in C# although i master C style
syntax
i just prefer VB ( and VB is here to stay ) , also VB is a true RAD tool
and C# can`t beat that .

Michel Posseth
 
C

Cor Ligthert [MVP]

Clinton,

Going on in your message (at the middle I go over more to the exact
subject). That people is in this century is speaking often English as
communication language is something that started in the previous century.

It has always be French and there is forever thought that it would stay
French.. Why would the world learn English which is only spoken by 8% of the
world population.

While new financial powers can be in the future China and/or India, which
uses languages that are spoken by much more people in the world.

You over estimate the role of the English language in the world as a lot of
English people do. The same is often done by only French or Russian speaking
people.

Don't forget that English is really a bad language when it is compared with
much other languages. (Not Dutch that is even worse).

And than coming back to your subject. This is in my opinion the same with
program languages. Don't see it only from your focus, it will probably
change. I got a nice message from somebody in the newsgroup General who
showed me this.

http://www.levenez.com/lang/history.html#01

This looks to me as something from the begin of the evolution, one of the
interesting things in it is that VB (Basic) together with Cobol has the
longest straight line.

You talk about AJAX (An in Europe famous Amsterdam football club (for you
soccer)).

Ken has set this sample on our website, I thought that it has as much
JScript as VBNet code in it.

http://www.vb-tips.com/default.aspx?ID=12499601-19c8-43bf-94bd-73214b27750c

I don't believe that the current languages will be used in future, as well
do I not believe that there will be one language in the world, as that in
the Bible is written there was before the time of the of the tower of
Babylon..

Just my thought,

Cor
 
P

ProfitMaxTrading.com

Found this an interesting subject considering my current affair with
deciding on language skills to adopt (first).

In the very beginning (back in the early 70's), I started my programming
adventure learning machine language and proudly (later) Assembly Language
(yes, there is a difference!). It gave a good sense of what goes on inside
the computer and is very efficient. Oh but all those mnemonics to learn.
Forget to shift a bit here, a bit there, and you're toast!

By the end of the 70's I had accomplished programming in Fortran, Cobol, and
some other language long removed from my memory (started with an 'A' and is
not Asm.) By 1980 I learned BASIC and thought "what an easy but inefficient
language this is. So I dumped it in favor of learning 'C' that really gave
me the feeling of POWER programming while being easier to deal with over
Assy.

But then came C++ and I had to learn that. Never got good enough (nor
mastered inheritance, etc) by the time a buddy of mine around 1994 suggested
I try Visual Basic (think it was version 4). "What, Basic??? Yuk! Dude, I'm
a 'C' guy." Well, he showed me the nice visual interface and how easy to
create forms, etc. So I gave in and started learning VB. Upgraded to 5.
Upgraded to 6. And there is where I am at now.

What about 'C', 'C++', 'Cobol and Fortran', 'Assembly'? Amazingly, I have
FORGOTTEN how to program using these prior languages.

Today I'm here because I want to learn VB.NET. I have installed VB.NET 2002
(got this with my MSDN membership a couple years ago) although I know it is
an old version. Guess I'm waiting for my VB.NET 2005 Beta 2 disk to arrive
in the mail form MS to upgrade. But while I look to learn VB.NET, I have to
wonder whether I am missing something in the world of 'C' or 'C++' and even
Assembly Language if you can believe that.

I've been told that programming in 'C' or 'C++' ( should anyone even bother
with 'C' with the likes of C++ around?) creates more efficient running
programs that are also smaller in size. They run faster as well. I've been
told that because hard drives have more capacity we VB programmers are a lax
bunch making fatter and fatter programs rather than tighter ones (greater
speed and smaller size?) achieved with 'C' or similar (?).

Although size is a minor inconvenience in today's larger drive capacity for
less $$ (except if your clients have to download your programs from the net
as mine do), speed is something I cannot afford to give away. So I wonder
whether my time would be better served by going back to 'C' or 'C++'
(whichever is better...I dunno) and learning it all over again or hanging in
there with VB (thus VB.NET from VB6).

ClintonG voiced an opinion that I often consider. Being one who loves this
field but doesn't want to waste time, I often wonder as I walk down the
programming section of Barne's and Noble whether any of those books on a
language I do not know would teach me something that I not only would find
useful, but would open additional doors to learn others FASTER. Learning one
language and then being able to quickly pick up one or two more is something
I certainly would entertain. Again, I certainly do not want to waste my time
as I'm not getting any younger (time running out!) and there is so much I
want and need to do.

I know that what you decide to use all depends on what you want to do. Guess
to say I want to do it all would be a bit over the top. Okay, priority is
that I need to write programs that my clients can download in a respectable
amount of time, and that it runs as fast as possible on their computers.
Some of my programs do a lot of cycles and you have to wait sometimes a
minute (or more) for the results to pop up. Faster, faster! Is VB.NET still
the path I should take? Anyone know? Or perhaps should I consider something
else?

Just prior to reading this thread I have been looking into re-learning
Assembly Language. "What???" you may be thinking. Before you say anything,
have you done it first? I'd like to hear from those who know this language
as well as VB.NET and have a view to share. Why re-learn Assembly? I'm
thinking perhaps writing small snipets to handle the more time intensive
aspects of my VB programs (if I decide to stick with VB of course) to speed
them up a bit. But then, maybe someone here might re-direct my view and say
"why not do this with 'C' or 'C++' (please say which is better) instead of
Assy." I really don't know. Since VB4, I've been disconnected from all these
other languages that I have to wonder if I'm missing the big picture.

Is all this verbose painting a clear picture of what I'm trying to ask? Or
is it just proving I'm going nuts and should be locked up? ;-)

Q. If you wanted to produce tight programs (smaller size) that runs fast,
and you wanted to get the project done in a short period of time, which
direction might you go? Will VB.NET fit this bill?

Q. Will the answer from the first question also allow for a leg up in
learning other languages, such as getting 3 for 1 as Clinton states? This is
a secondary desire. My priority is with the first question.

Thanks for reading. I look forward to the insights of all your collective
experiences in respects to this subject.

Rick
 
C

Cor Ligthert [MVP]

Rick,

I have done assembler as well, that was fun, doing everything by yourself.
Those times are gone, we cannot make all those nice screens as they are now
by hazling with all those bytes..

However your main question. VBNet has one advantage over all those languages
you mention. It has the best IDE (what you call the visual interface) and
than it creates the smallest exe's, however that is only a very small
difference.

The speed between all Net languages (when used option strict on in VBNet) is
exactly the same.

I think that there is nothing more to say.

Cor
 
P

ProfitMaxTrading.com

After an (extensive) search across the net and reading a zillion opinions,
the thought came to me to simply query the developer (Microsoft) as to what
each of their .NET languages offer in pros and cons.

I found these statements to be quite revealing:


a.. Programmers chiefly concerned with the performance characteristics of
their applications. C++ offers developers the largest degree of control over
program design and execution. Advanced developers can design and implement
applications using C++ that execute more quickly and efficiently than if
they were written in other languages, including both native Windows-based
and .NET-connected applications.


b.. Programmers who wish to build truly cross-platform solutions. Only the
C++ language contains an ISO-standardized and truly portable syntax,
available on virtually every operating system platform. Visual C++ .NET 2003
offers increased standards compliance, enabling programmers to use advanced
language features and to take advantage of popular class libraries available
for a variety of different operating systems.
Unique Language Features
Visual C++ .NET contains several unique language features in high demand
among advanced programmers. These language features contribute to making C++
the most powerful of all the Microsoft-provided Visual Studio languages:

a.. Templates. Templates comprise several compile-time language features
which are largely unique to C++, enabling many code reuse and performance
enhancing capabilities.


b.. Pointers. Pointers give C++ developers direct access to machine level
memory locations, enabling the highest performing applications.


c.. Multiple inheritance. C++ offers developers a full gamut of
object-oriented programming (OOP) features for implementing the widest
variety of OOP programming patterns.


d.. Intrinsics. Intrinsics provide developers access to key platform
features not available through traditional programming practices, for
example MMX and AMD 3DNow! registers and instructions.


e.. Compile-time attributes. C++ attributes provide a shorthand means of
writing highly tuned repetitive boilerplate code using a simple and robust
syntax.

=================

It would appear that VB's popularity stems from its 'simplicity', allowing
beginners to get up to speed quickly. It also produces 'pretty' code and
acts like a 'crutch' for writing correct syntax as it alerts the programmer
to an error on the go. Naturally I've found these features useful as it
tends to catch a lot of my oversights. And of course I'm very comfortable
programming in the VB environment (up to VB6 that is).

But now that I'm seriously considering 'upgrading' from VB6 to .NET (2002
already on my machine), and likely to upgrade to 2005, the time has come to
evaluate my language choice. As posted earlier, TIME IS VALUABLE and I don't
want to waste it. What will give me more ummph in the long run? According to
Microsoft, their C++ appears to fit that bill. So might as well bite the
learning curve bullet and learn this 'less than friendly' language in the
hopes of someday controlling more power in my applications with increased
experience. In other words, focus on the more difficult but more powerful
tool and get it under my belt as soon as possible. Yep, I'm a power freak
that has been out of the water since moving from C to VB4 many years ago.

Why post this here on a VB.NET newsgroup? Everyone here no doubt is biased
on VB.NET. Because I'm more interested in 'opposing' views overall as it
gives me a better idea as to whether I'm off my rock for even considering
this move. If I post this on a C++ newsgroup, they're all going to agree
with me and there goes more objective views.

So yes, I value the opinions of my fellow VB programmers as I have for years
prior. Your thoughts on what Microsoft has stated about their own product
would be appreciated.

TIA

Rick
 
S

Scott M.

Q. If you wanted to produce tight programs (smaller size) that runs fast,
and you wanted to get the project done in a short period of time, which
direction might you go? Will VB.NET fit this bill?

Program size is irelevant in .NET, since all the .NET languages compile to
IL and machine code. But as for the speed of application development, VB
has long been known as a RAD (rapid application development) platform.
Q. Will the answer from the first question also allow for a leg up in
learning other languages, such as getting 3 for 1 as Clinton states? This
is a secondary desire. My priority is with the first question.

If you truly understand OO concepts (inheritance, overloading, overriding,
shared members, sealed & abstract classes, etc.), you will find that going
from VB to Java or C# is not the big deal that Clinton is making it out to
be since these concepts are the same in all the OO languages we're talking
about.
 
G

Guest

I believe VB (Basic) has been around for over 40 years (used to be called
FORTRAN!

Just could be that C and C++ will slowly disappear and not VB!
 
C

Cor Ligthert [MVP]

Dennis,

As you can see in the scheme in my previous message is Fortran a kind of
mother of all symbolic languages. However it was very much based on algebra.

Cobol and Basic started more to be based on logic and description. (The
first part is of course as well algebra, the second less).

Cor
 
C

clintonG

<snip />

This topic is not and was not meant to be about which language per se but
about which syntax and which grammar has become the defacto standard for
most languages that are being used at this point in time to develop most
applications for the most significant endeavor in the history of mankind's
efforts to involve themselves with a computer science. That is of course the
Internet manifested in a form useable by humans we know as the web and the
syntax and grammar that which has been derived from C in this context.

Blame Thompson and Ritchie if you must but there's no denying that the
legacy of C [1] has become the legacy of the web and this legacy is best
expressed in its totality in the client and an overwhelming presence on the
server by Java and C# as well as other languages that are very C-like.

This contention is and has been continually proven by Software Magazine's
annual surveys. This year -- again as I recall -- the most often used
languages as cited by survey respondents are Java followed by C#. To be
honest this confuses me as the classifieds rarely ask for C# when seeking
..NET developers. The classifieds it seems are almost always seeking VB.NET
developers. Not to denigrate VB anymore than it seems but I believe this
phenomena to be a hold over from the past (and current) success of VB itself
and the monkey-see monkey-do behavioral model present in most management
processes more so than the understanding of which syntax and language offers
the most efficient and highest use of one's resources and one's willingness
and ability to adapt to change to the current paradigm.

Actually, if there would be a single person to look to in this regard of the
legacy itself it would have to be Brendan Eich the author of JavaScript [2]
whose decision to reuse the C syntax and grammar has changed software
development as we know it, as again, it is the phenomena of the web that has
become the deciding factor and the legacy of C is rapidily becoming
prevalent. I think Google is making this point perfectly clear [3].

So again, I note many languages do not fit this paradigm and many languages
will continue to be used and new languages will continue to be developed.
Ruby comes to mind as I find a need to learn this language for certain
aspirations I hold in the practice of architecture where I was formally
educated, trained, and where much of my thinking processes have been
influenced by an immersion into classical thought and philosophy.

Regardless, that does not change the fundamental premise of my contentious
postulation, that being, in the course of time the VB syntax and grammar [4]
will continue to be killed softly by this song.

It is interesting to note the wikipedia disclaimer for those recoding the
history of Visual Basic [3]. That there are contentious and biased points of
view we all hold is of no question none of which however change the facts. I
like VB myself but one day I had the "learn three for the price of one"
epiphany and realized I was compelled to think pragmatically and was
therefore compelled to adopt the legacy provided to us by men such as
Thompson,Ritchie and Eich.

That's all there is to it for me as a person who happens to have what some
may call a deep insight if you will as I am rarely incorrect in my
prognostications. People that know me over a period of time have told me for
years I would do much better in the stock market and financial management
because I have an uncanny ability to see a trend early in the curve and call
which horse will win the race. But alas, I am a stubborn fool.

It is only because I am also a maverick that I have avoided that pursuit in
favor of my current endeavors which compel me to say "sorry fellas" because
it really looks like the VB syntax and grammar has seen its heyday [5],
Microsoft's efforts to retain the loyalty of VB developers not withstanding,
the VB syntax and grammar is in the process of becoming relegated to the
annals of history to take its place as second fiddle in this symphany of the
web where I find myself lucky enough to have found a seat in the orchestra
which I credit to my willingness to learn, my predilection towards change,
and my ability to read the sheet music which the conductor has made clear:
This symphany is to be played in the key of the legacy of C.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_programming_language
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javascript
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AJAX
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_programming_language
[5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_BASIC
 
C

Cor Ligthert [MVP]

Clinton,

I like JavaScript very much, it has some bad things, however it is a very
good scripting language.

You don't mention however the most important things from. JavaScript is
designed in the time that bandwide was almost a religion not to spare it.

And it was build to use inside the Netscape browser so it should be easy to
translate at runtime. Describe values as with a lot of languages are
important was absolute from no value in JavaScript.

Some things are not done because they are the best and they have a long
live. Did you see that schema that I showed you. I was curious about your
reaction on that. You see there a lot of program languages you maybe even
never heard of and which where a while defacto standards.

Cor
 
P

ProfitMaxTrading.com

Clinton

It so happens that my business is prognostication of the Financial Markets
(ie. ProfitMax Trading Inc.). However, this ability does not carry over to
the realm of software direction. And so, knowing my skills well in the
forecasting of market price action in a field of critics, I will not be the
critic in your claims to see a 'trend' in the direction of programming but
RATHER to hope to gain some insight by asking you a simple questions:

Q. Is it your opinion based on what you perceive as the direction of
programming that learning the C language (or C++ ?) is the 'safe' approach
in order to be in the thick of future of software development?

Q. What 'flavor' of the most effective language to learn 'now' would you
recommend? (.NET or some other brand?)


Thanks Clinton

clintonG said:
<snip />

This topic is not and was not meant to be about which language per se but
about which syntax and which grammar has become the defacto standard for
most languages that are being used at this point in time to develop most
applications for the most significant endeavor in the history of mankind's
efforts to involve themselves with a computer science. That is of course
the Internet manifested in a form useable by humans we know as the web and
the syntax and grammar that which has been derived from C in this context.

Blame Thompson and Ritchie if you must but there's no denying that the
legacy of C [1] has become the legacy of the web and this legacy is best
expressed in its totality in the client and an overwhelming presence on
the server by Java and C# as well as other languages that are very C-like.

This contention is and has been continually proven by Software Magazine's
annual surveys. This year -- again as I recall -- the most often used
languages as cited by survey respondents are Java followed by C#. To be
honest this confuses me as the classifieds rarely ask for C# when seeking
.NET developers. The classifieds it seems are almost always seeking VB.NET
developers. Not to denigrate VB anymore than it seems but I believe this
phenomena to be a hold over from the past (and current) success of VB
itself and the monkey-see monkey-do behavioral model present in most
management processes more so than the understanding of which syntax and
language offers the most efficient and highest use of one's resources and
one's willingness and ability to adapt to change to the current paradigm.

Actually, if there would be a single person to look to in this regard of
the legacy itself it would have to be Brendan Eich the author of
JavaScript [2] whose decision to reuse the C syntax and grammar has
changed software development as we know it, as again, it is the phenomena
of the web that has become the deciding factor and the legacy of C is
rapidily becoming prevalent. I think Google is making this point perfectly
clear [3].

So again, I note many languages do not fit this paradigm and many
languages will continue to be used and new languages will continue to be
developed. Ruby comes to mind as I find a need to learn this language for
certain aspirations I hold in the practice of architecture where I was
formally educated, trained, and where much of my thinking processes have
been influenced by an immersion into classical thought and philosophy.

Regardless, that does not change the fundamental premise of my contentious
postulation, that being, in the course of time the VB syntax and grammar
[4] will continue to be killed softly by this song.

It is interesting to note the wikipedia disclaimer for those recoding the
history of Visual Basic [3]. That there are contentious and biased points
of view we all hold is of no question none of which however change the
facts. I like VB myself but one day I had the "learn three for the price
of one" epiphany and realized I was compelled to think pragmatically and
was therefore compelled to adopt the legacy provided to us by men such as
Thompson,Ritchie and Eich.

That's all there is to it for me as a person who happens to have what some
may call a deep insight if you will as I am rarely incorrect in my
prognostications. People that know me over a period of time have told me
for years I would do much better in the stock market and financial
management because I have an uncanny ability to see a trend early in the
curve and call which horse will win the race. But alas, I am a stubborn
fool.

It is only because I am also a maverick that I have avoided that pursuit
in favor of my current endeavors which compel me to say "sorry fellas"
because it really looks like the VB syntax and grammar has seen its heyday
[5], Microsoft's efforts to retain the loyalty of VB developers not
withstanding, the VB syntax and grammar is in the process of becoming
relegated to the annals of history to take its place as second fiddle in
this symphany of the web where I find myself lucky enough to have found a
seat in the orchestra which I credit to my willingness to learn, my
predilection towards change, and my ability to read the sheet music which
the conductor has made clear: This symphany is to be played in the key of
the legacy of C.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_programming_language
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javascript
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AJAX
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_programming_language
[5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_BASIC
 
C

clintonG

Yes, I understand your point of view Cor and I agree with you and I've said
quite clearly several times throughout this topic that there will continue
to be a demand for many different languages and I also said more than once
in this topic that it looks like I am going to have to learn Ruby which is
obviously not a legacy C language.

The point is for this topic, the web can be broken down into two tiers; the
client and the server. JavaScript is the defacto standard on the client and
JavaScript syntax and grammar is derived from C. The current trend to
develop rich user interfaces requires a mastery of JavaScript as applied to
the DOM. That is why AJAX is so popular all of a sudden and is rapidly
becoming the measure of quality. Basically, we can thank Google for
promoting this functionality by simply publishing public APIs. So mark my
words Cor. One or two years from now any page that requies a PostBack page
flash is going to be considered to be developed by amateurs.

Now the tier on the server is much more divers supporting more choices
right? Java, PHP, C#, VB.NET and so on. All I've been saying is it certainly
seems that the economy of developing software requires adopting every
efficiency that can be learned and adopted. That is why I call my philosophy
"learn three for the price of one."

Since client-side development demands a mastery of the legacy C language as
manifested by Javascript it makes sense that those that make the decisions
where to spend their money and on which developers they will hire will also
learn to require and demand the use of a legacy C language on the server.
Basically, that means Java or C# and to some extent PHP although I consider
that a bit of a stretch. In time as I believe, the popularity and the demand
of the VB syntax and grammar will diminish.

Time will tell right?


<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/
 
C

clintonG

Q. Is it your opinion based on what you perceive as the direction of
programming that learning the C language (or C++ ?) is the 'safe' approach
in order to be in the thick of future of software development?

It is my opinion that server-side development is increasingly becoming
dominated by the use of PHP, Java, or C# because all derive in part (PHP) or
in whole (Java and C#) from the legacy of C and as I think I've made clear
client-side development requires the mastery of JavaScript which
unquestionably derives from C. Thus the "learn three for the price of one"
philosophy (341 Trend) which I assert is starting to catch the attention of
those who pay the bills as they continue to consider the economics of
consolidation.
Q. What 'flavor' of the most effective language to learn 'now' would you
recommend? (.NET or some other brand?)

For .NET development I contend the best long range server-side strategy
demands the mastery of C# as it is nearly identical to Javascript which is
required for client-side development. C# also makes it a snap to read and
understand Java making it possible for a developer to easily collaborate
with Java developers or to show his or her C# code to an employer or a
client who understands code and the principles of the economy of scale and
whom may be considering hiring the C# developer to learn and adopt J2EE.

<snip />

P.S. Blame my mother in this one :) When I was a young boy she enrolled me
in the Double Day Book of the Month Club and I ended up reading Asimov's
"Foundation Trilogy" -- twice -- and yearn for the time to read it again.
Asimov saw a future where advances in computer science and economies of
scale resulted in the outsourcing of human beings who were replaced by
automatons maintained and controlled by a single person. The name of the
game being the consolidation of any and all economies of scale.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/
 
K

Ken Dopierala Jr.

BASIC

Beginners All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code

Controversy abounds. Emotions flare and people talk about what they know
nothing about. This is a volatile time for BASIC. There are only two
requirements for popularity when it comes to programming languages. The
first is speed of initial execution. The second is limitless possibilities.
BASIC has always provided both.

For many BASIC programmers speed has never been an issue. If you needed
greasy fast speed you wrote it and linked it. This is true from QB on.
Before that if you needed speed you Poked it with GWBasic, BasicA, or
whatever your flavor was.

Speed. How important!

I wrote all my Interaction/UI code in QB, I wrote my libraries in QuickC.
My QuickC libraries included a lot of inline Assembler because I needed
greasy fast speed and I couldn't count on the compiler to do it for me.
Especially when I needed BIOS calls.

Things have grown up, so have I. I was 14 back then. Now I'm 30. When I
look back I'm astounded. Even more I'm completely floored that the language
I started with can now do what it does.

Beginners All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code

Beginners still holds true...amazingly though All-purpose has taken hold.
In the from of Visual Basic .Net you can do whatever you want. You can do
so much more than ever thought possible. Moreover, like the generations
before, if you need speed you get it somewhere else. Use Fastgraph for
graphics and DirectX, use FMod for sound. Use BASIC because you are
comfortable with it and it now gives you more power than you've ever had
before.

C#? Like it? Use it! The best advice I can give to anyone in this
industry is to enjoy the language you code in and make the most of it. That
is why BASIC continues to grow. People enjoy the language and make the most
of it.

BASIC as been around for a very long time and I'm proud to code in it. In
fact, the first Microsoft product was Altair BASIC built for the MITS Altair
8800. They released it in 1975, same year I was born, and I'm glad they
did! Ken.
 

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