End to piracy

G

Guest

Mark D. VandenBerg wrote:
No I don't agree with theivrey. I have held off on things until the Lord
gave me the means to get them. That's the way to do it. Not theft. I don't
know if you are Judaeo-Christian, but God never said "Do not steal (except
if you are poor)".

It's alright saying what God didn't say, but that's not the whole picture.

In biblical times the poor didn't need to steal.

" 'When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of
your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor
and the alien. I am the LORD your God.' "

Then you have the new testament

"All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of
his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had."
 
D

Dave Balcom

}like GEOS, a predecessor to Windows, which I remember buying at SEARS of all

I bought GEOS. Ran it on a Commodore 64. Now THAT was a machine!!! :)

Reminds me of another 'early' purchase I made. I bought Flight Sim 2.0
(?) for my Commodore Colt (XT clone) or first AT clone -- don't remember
which. The software was on a 5 1/4 floppy. MS limited you to either run
it from the floppy or install it once to a hard drive. Either selection
overwrote something on the disk making it permanent. Of course that was
probably written somewhere in the small print but I didn't see it. I was
running a ram drive using the reserve memory on the computer (above 640K
up to the 1 MB limit of system RAM) to make things run faster. It ran
great until I rebooted and lost the option to re-install. :(

Sounds a little familiar doesn't it? That was Microsoft around ~1988.

Later,
Dave
 
D

Dave Balcom

}just trying out Ubuntu latest version for the first time ? I think you going
}to like it , I know I have , If you like ? I can post all the forum site for
}Linux , I have a very long list

Hey could you send me this too? The email addy is good...

Thanks,
Dave
 
W

Wake up and smell the coffee

Will said:
Wether we like it or not unfortunately piracy is here to stay people
have been stealing since the dawn of time.
And unfortunatly this is reflected in the price we pay for our goods.
However heavy handed measures in the form of SPP and WGA will never
work, that is just a fact.
I am an honest user and always have been but all these anti piracy
measures seem to be only hurting the honest users and not the thieves.

True - With SPP & WGA (IMHO WPA also) MS treats it's paying customers as
criminals. That is no way to good customer service.
 
W

Wake up and smell the coffee

Alias~- said:
It's obvious that MS does not care for its paying customers, especially
its beta testers with this new hardware crap. I think that Vista will be
MS' last OS, Office 2007 its last off line Office and is setting its
sights on on line offerings while milking the XP/Vista/Office cow as
much as it can while it can. First they saturated the market with
95/98/W2K/Office 97/2K that were easily pirated. Once they had a decent
OS, XP, and a virtual monopoly, they instituted WPA and WGA to stop
casual piracy and make casual pirates pay for each XP (be it the OS or
Office) they wanted.

So, who's the bloody pirate in this movie?

Alias

Arrrrr matey, point taken! ;)
 
R

Ray

I agree, for something as important as an operating system, buy it, after
all you wouldn't steal a computer would you?
However, this is my beef with the present EULA as I understand it. If I go
and purchase a CD, I expect to be able to listen to that CD on any player
that I have, whether it is in the house, in the car or at work, as many
times as I want. Microsoft are saying that I can listen to the CD on one
player, with the option of moving it to one other player and then having to
keep it there. If I wish to listen anywhere else or the player breaks then I
have to buy another CD.
Can you imagine the uproar if the record companies came up with this crap.
So why are we having to put up with this from Microsoft, I'm sure that
someone will clue me in.

As I see it, I have two choices:
1. Stick with XP, A pity because I do like Vista and would gladly buy it if
I could run it through several hardware upgrades over the next 5 or so
years.
2. If someone comes up with a patch to overcome this restrictive use "bug"
then I will buy Vista and apply the patch and live happily ever after. Or
until they come out with Vista II.

My thoughts on the matter.
 
G

Guest

I disagree.

Go into a shop and stuff a CD down your pants, the shop has paid out actual
money for that actual CD, right down the chain (packaging, CD pressing,
transport etc) and a lot of people are out of pocket.

Yes, a lot of people are out of pocket.
A teenager buying a CD and his mate copying a few tracks from it, is a
completely different thing altogether. No one is out of pocket and no one
has lost anything. You could argue that the record company/artist has lost
royalities, but this would only be true if the teenager that copied the
tracks, would have brought the CD if he couldn't copy it.

The record company, the artist, the store that could have sold the CD, (The
paackaging/transport, the people that mop the floors, have all lost money, 15
dollars may not seem like a lot, but for a store clerk, that is nearly 2
hours work. Not to mention, you and I have lost money, because since that kid
didn't spend the money for the CD, all these people have lost money, and who
picks up the losses? You as I do, even if it is just a couple pennies at a
time.
I really don't understand people who cant see this obvious difference and
say it's all the same type of theft.

What difference? The software or CD is for sale, and instead of going out
and honestly buying the CD or software, they download it and use it for free.

Using it, and didn't pay for it.. Lets see. Sounds a lot like theft to me.
Let me see if I can go to a car dealership and use a car for a while without
paying for it.
When I was young we had cassette tapes. I would tape off the radio as I
couldn't afford the LP's, was I a thief? (One UK radio presenter, John Peel
even used to wait until the record had ended so that we wouldn't get talking
over our recordings). I would save up for an album, my friends would tape
it. I would tape my friends albums. We only had a finite amount of money
between us, no one lost out, we wern't going into shops and stealing LP's we
were doing what the majority of kids did.

Now, don't get me wrong, I see your point, but things are different now. The
internet isn't liek "Borrowing my buddies LP and taping it"
Some numbers have claimed that music, movies, and software downloads are up
to millions a day in transfer. If you copy your buddies album, that is a
minimal loss. But when you take that into the millions, it becomes a business
killer
Think about it even in less numbers. Say 100,000 copies of one album
downloaded. 100,000 times the average of say $12 for the album. You are
looking at 1.2 million in lost money for the production.
Back to Windows :)

I brought Win95. It didn't live up to what it was advertised to do. I then
brought Win 98 followed by Win98 2nd edition. Again they didn't do what they
claimed. They did crash a lot. Along comes windows XP. All I wanted was an
operating system that didn't crash. I'd paid out money numerous times in the
past and had been let down. I wasn't going to do the same thing again. I
pirated XP, used it for about 4 months, was happy that it did what it said
pretty well and went out and brought legit copies for my 3 home PC's.

That is all good, however you are one of the few, sure pirates say "This is
full version, if you like it buy it! But lest be honest, why bother buying
the program if you are already getting it for free? Most using pirated
software aren't going to be that honest.
It's easy to give your 3 step advice for buying Vista (or any other
software) but things aren't as clear cut as that in the real world. I can
afford to buy software and always buy software if I like it and regulally use
it (often pirate it first to give it a good try out), but then theres things
like schools. The schools (my kids schools in the UK do anyway) use a certain
version of office. The kids have to do some work at home. They get in a right
mess when they are using different versions to the school. yes I could
install openoffice, but it wouldn't help my kids do their work. I have
brought various legit versions of office, but did I go out and buy yet
another version of office? No I didn't, I got hold of a pirated version.

Again, and understand, I am not trying to be mean about this, but it is
against the law. It is still theft. If you aren't paying for it, it is
stealing.

What about the huge amount of people I know on low income that have jjust
managed to afford a basic home comouter yet their kids need MS Access to do
their schoolwork on.

It's alright to label people thieves etc. But at some point, rightousness
comes into it. I have installed my legitamet purchased version of access on
a few friends PC's in order for their kids to be able to do their homework as
they have absolutely NO other means of being able to do so.

I can understand your issues, I really can. I am not innocent, for a long
time i ran a pirated copy of XP on my old computer. But what happened, was I
never bought a copy of it, I just kept using it until I finally got rid of
the computer. Was it that I couldn't afford to go buy an honest copy? No, not
really, But as long as I was getting it for free, why bother spending the
extra money.
And I do feel for those who may not be able to afford this new operating
system, or other computer products, for that matter. And you know what, I can
even understand stealing, if there is an honest need. But lets be honest, A
computer isn't really a "NEED." Even though many will argue about it, I don't
need to have a computer, i don't NEED to have the internet. Granted, it makes
my life much easier, but I will not die without it.
And I know I sound like a hardass. But I have since learned the values of
honesty.
And I also feel for those who are losing money. One more example, and I will
leave it alone.
Looking at E-mule searching under "XP Pro"
Microsoft Office XP Pro has over 5075 copies up for grabs. that is 5,075
copies. Microsoft office XP, taking Amazon's price (the average) is about
$400 per copy. So we take that 5075 and multiply it by $400. The final number
is $2.030,000. That's right, over 2 million dollars. Well the Company didn't
get payed for that, therefore, that is a 2 million dollar loss for them...
Wait, or is it? Big companies like Microsoft don't take losses, no, they just
raise prices to cover the loss.
So, now, if you divide the 2 million dollars by the number of honest users,
It may be about $5, to $20 a piece they will raise prices, but then add the
losses from Windows XP, which I am sure is much more, but for ths example
lets keep it the same area, say 5000. Multiply that by the going Price on
Amazon ($269.99, or $270), and you have another $1,345,000 in lost revenue
that the consumer who actually buys the product has to cover. There is
another $5 or $20 per honest user. But it keeps going through the spectrum of
software, not only Microsoft, but Symantec, and Mcaffee, or any video game
manufacturer.

Looking at those basic numbers. And we, who are having to shell out the
money keep on asking "Why is Vista going to cost so much?"

The pirates are driving the prices up to where the only way someone can get
their hands on quality software is to use pirated software.

Don't take my word for it look it up yourself.

http://www.bsa.org/usa/antipiracy/
http://nick.typepad.com/blog/2004/01/on_piracy.html
http://informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=174907620
http://www.hejndorf.dk/persistent/?p=10
http://mag.awn.com/index.php?ltype=pageone&article_no=1520&page=1

And the list goes on. Piracy is not a victimless crime. Someone pays the
price, and usually that someone is you or me.
 
X

xfile

Nobody is arguing about fighting against piracy.

The best way to fight terrorists is to implant a smart chip on everyone so
FBI, NSA, and CIA can constantly monitor our whereabouts just in case we are
going to commit crimes.

Is that the same logic for you? Do you really believe that there is no
"balanced" way and a better way?

Do you really believe that in the name of fighting crimes, we can do
whatever we want?

What are the differences between the nature of this logic and the one - in
the name of god, let's bomb and kill everyone?
 
A

arachnid

Not to mention, you and I have lost money, because since that kid didn't
spend the money for the CD, all these people have lost money, and who
picks up the losses? You as I do, even if it is just a couple pennies at
a time.

That's in a competitive market, which this is not. Microsoft is a bona
fide monopoly and prices are artificially set by Microsoft to the maximum
consumers will pay rather than being pushed down close to the costs of
production by free-market competition. If they were able to make every
pirate in the world pay for a copy of Windows, Microsoft would keep that
extra money for themselves and their shareholders, and continue to charge
exactly what they do now. Consumers would never see a dime of it.
 
W

William

Hi Phil;

I sounds like you have more than contributed your share to uphold the life styles of the corporate fat cats over the years through their crappy as well as good products over the years. I don't blame you for trying out a piece of software out before deciding if it is worth the investment or not. I really hate the trial versions of popular software that are so limited as to what they can do, that they are virtually worthless.




I disagree.

Go into a shop and stuff a CD down your pants, the shop has paid out actual
money for that actual CD, right down the chain (packaging, CD pressing,
transport etc) and a lot of people are out of pocket.

A teenager buying a CD and his mate copying a few tracks from it, is a
completely different thing altogether. No one is out of pocket and no one
has lost anything. You could argue that the record company/artist has lost
royalities, but this would only be true if the teenager that copied the
tracks, would have brought the CD if he couldn't copy it.

I really don't understand people who cant see this obvious difference and
say it's all the same type of theft.

When I was young we had cassette tapes. I would tape off the radio as I
couldn't afford the LP's, was I a thief? (One UK radio presenter, John Peel
even used to wait until the record had ended so that we wouldn't get talking
over our recordings). I would save up for an album, my friends would tape
it. I would tape my friends albums. We only had a finite amount of money
between us, no one lost out, we wern't going into shops and stealing LP's we
were doing what the majority of kids did.

Back to Windows :)

I brought Win95. It didn't live up to what it was advertised to do. I then
brought Win 98 followed by Win98 2nd edition. Again they didn't do what they
claimed. They did crash a lot. Along comes windows XP. All I wanted was an
operating system that didn't crash. I'd paid out money numerous times in the
past and had been let down. I wasn't going to do the same thing again. I
pirated XP, used it for about 4 months, was happy that it did what it said
pretty well and went out and brought legit copies for my 3 home PC's.

It's easy to give your 3 step advice for buying Vista (or any other
software) but things aren't as clear cut as that in the real world. I can
afford to buy software and always buy software if I like it and regulally use
it (often pirate it first to give it a good try out), but then theres things
like schools. The schools (my kids schools in the UK do anyway) use a certain
version of office. The kids have to do some work at home. They get in a right
mess when they are using different versions to the school. yes I could
install openoffice, but it wouldn't help my kids do their work. I have
brought various legit versions of office, but did I go out and buy yet
another version of office? No I didn't, I got hold of a pirated version.

What about the huge amount of people I know on low income that have jjust
managed to afford a basic home comouter yet their kids need MS Access to do
their schoolwork on.

It's alright to label people thieves etc. But at some point, rightousness
comes into it. I have installed my legitamet purchased version of access on
a few friends PC's in order for their kids to be able to do their homework as
they have absolutely NO other means of being able to do so.
 
S

SESSION_EVENT

Right. The end does not always justify the means.

Sure piracy of Microsoft software is "bad". Not that Microsoft didn't
encourage it when it suited Microsoft. Because by its action or inaction
Microsoft did encourage piracy for many years. It was one of the ways that
Microsoft achieve the current state of affairs of a defacto monopoly on the
i386 desktop.

But now it does't suit Microsoft's purposes. But am I supposed to believe
piracy of Microsft software is "really bad". No it's not good, but it is not
as "really bad" as Microsoft would have me beileve. I think priacy is
bad - a morally wrong thing. But seeing as how absolute lax microsoft has
been on the matter til very very recently when the market got absolutely
saturated and they realized there was going to be no competition on the
desktop from Linux .. how very lax they were for decades .. well am I
supposed to jump up and down over the matter - or care at all even?

Since WPA, WGA, WGA N has the cost of the operating sytem gone down? No. But
Microsoft claims that piracy is bad and that if it would only stop magically
the price of the OS would go down. Well, since WPA, WGA, and WGA N the price
is actually going up.

So is piracy so bad that I must agree to give up my civil liberties to fight
it? No it is not.

As a matter of fact, piracy of Microsoft software doesn't matter much in the
West anymore because of WPA and WGA. And in poor countries .. well, they
don't have that much money anyway. How is someone who earns 65 cents a day
ever going to buy a 400 dollar operating system retail? Not likely in the
near future. So it's not like Microsoft is lossing anything as the money is
not there to be paid in the first place. The pirates actually enable these
people to join the computing world. Besides, someday they will be richer and
will buy Microsoft, so Microsoft wins there too.

So, to repeat, the ends do not always justify the means and I have no
intention of relinquishing my civil liberites to Microsoft, one of the
richest most profitable companies in the world. They should be thankful they
are rolling in dough. Well they are not just rolling in dough, they are
bathing in it, soaking up the riches like no one else. Billions and Billions
and billions and billions and billions and billions and billions and
billions and billions and billions and billions and billions and billions
and billions and billions and billions and billions and billions and
billions and billions and billions ...

Boo hoo for them. Can you see the tear I shed over their complaint ? Priacy
oh how they encouraged it while it profitted them .. but now that the market
is saturated and there's no foreseeable competition how *bad* it is now and
how evil the pirates are. tsk tsk You know that Microsoft released corporate
versions of XP with no WPA ?? It's like they gave it to the pirates on a
silver platter! So I can't feel too sorry over it.

 
L

Luke Fitzwater

Actually, you do not own the movie on the DVD, you own the rights to
watch the contents of the DVD disk in accordance to the little warnings
that flash up before any movie. The movie is actually owned by the
studio or publisher, depends on who owns the rights at the time. At no
time is it legal to copy media that is copy protected. If you loose or
break a DVD, by law you can contact the publisher and request another
copy of the disk by trading in one of the "proof of purchases" from the
media's box. So if you want keep backing up your DVD illegally, there
are other options that won't land you in jail or a heavy fine.

Software is the same, when you buy software in a retail environment you
do not own it. You have simply have purchased a license to use the
software. The full ownership is however still retained by the software
developer or publisher.

Even open sourced software purchased in a retail environment is not
purchased for ownership. You have simply purchased the cost of
packaging, shipping, and a support from the company of distribution. In
open source it does give you the flexibility to rewrite and share the
software.

The most effective tool against piracy is to lower the cost, less reason
to steal something if it isn't out of most pirates pocket book.

The second effective way is to conduct more police raids on known
software pirates. Unfortunately this option is costly for steak outs and
manpower involved.

Lastly you have software redundancy checks, which have been there for a
while. Most generations of software has created some way to prevent the
illegal installation of software on unlicensed machines. If you want to
compare this technique to safe and lock companies, each generation of
locks and safes keeps getting more elaborate due to thieves breaking
into the safe. This leads into bigger, heavier safes, more elaborate
keys, but the thieves just get smarter in the ways around such devices
and still get the goods. Same with software. I remember the days where
it was a simple text editor or hex editor to crack a program with in a
few minutes to hours. Now software pirates use algorithmic analyzers and
a lot of social engineering to get past current software "locks".

-Luke
 
X

xfile

The most effective tool against piracy is to lower the cost, less reason
to steal something if it isn't out of most pirates pocket book.

The second effective way is to conduct more police raids on known software
pirates. Unfortunately this option is costly for steak outs and manpower
involved.

Totally agreed and it's AND for both. A common sense of economics will tell
the relationship between demand and price. But others suggested another
point which might also be valid - it may not work in a "saturated" market,
where demands are relied on replacements. It is how to "encourage" (or
"force" using a more negative term) to purchase "replacements".

Admittedly, I don't know their intensions for doing so. But for whatever it
is, it's not a fair deal.
Lastly you have software redundancy checks, which have been there for a
while. Most generations of software has created some way to prevent the
illegal installation of software on unlicensed machines. If you want to
compare this technique to safe and lock companies, each generation of
locks and safes keeps getting more elaborate due to thieves breaking into
the safe. This leads into bigger, heavier safes, more elaborate keys, but
the thieves just get smarter in the ways around such devices and still get
the goods. Same with software. I remember the days where it was a simple
text editor or hex editor to crack a program with in a few minutes to
hours. Now software pirates use algorithmic analyzers and a lot of social
engineering to get past current software "locks".

This is the area that puzzled me the most, and this is also a common sense
sort of speaking. If someone (especially career criminals) really wants to
break into your home, chances are they can regardless what kind of security
measurements are in place. Of course, that doesn't mean no security is
needed.

In fact, I've been using the same analogy for defending MS should not be
totally responsible for the security issues. They have their own shares but
everyone including users and justice system also need to carry their own
fair shares. But this is another issue which I won't elaborate.

But I'm reluctant to believe folks in Redmond campus don't know this common
sense, and that only leads me to the conspiracy theory which is - they do
and it's just an excuse for executing the "replacement purchase" mentioned
earlier.

Finally, because all these bad practices, it brings back the fundamental
question about the fairness of the license in the first place.

Software makers can get away from the damages caused by their products, and
not reliable for anything? And the "license to use the software" is bound
to what? A device (which is??), a PC (which is??), a person, or a company?
Since I'm not a lawyer, I hate people playing legal games and smart tricks
on wordings, and that's just how I felt about this EULA.

If one wishes to play the wording game, would a du core CPU counted as one
or two CPUs? What will be the definitions for a single CPU as time moves
on - on physical count or the processing units? The game can go on and on
endlessly and what's the meaning for this?

I've been engaged to commercial software licensing that is bound to the
company and can be used one copy at a time, which I consider is fair enough.

The only thing I've learned from all of this mass is that I should have been
much more careful on contributing my part of helping a company to become a
giant - and I just don't know what I might be dealing with.

But I've learned it and it's never too late.
 
A

arachnid

Actually, you do not own the movie on the DVD, you own the rights to watch
the contents of the DVD disk in accordance to the little warnings that
flash up before any movie.

There is some question in the courts if that's the case:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

Some courts take the view that when you buy a video (or software), you are
buying that copy of the IP to do with as you please so long as it's for
your own use. You can't copy or display it for others (copyright) but
otherwise it's as if you own the actual IP yourself.

There are also some European countries with strong consumer protections
that take the view that you are indeed buying a copy of the movie or
software, and not just a license to use it, no matter what the seller
claims.

Just because Microsoft and the RIAA/MPAA say it's so, don't make it so.
 
D

Donald L McDaniel

Actually, you do not own the movie on the DVD, you own the rights to
watch the contents of the DVD disk in accordance to the little warnings
that flash up before any movie. The movie is actually owned by the
studio or publisher, depends on who owns the rights at the time. At no
time is it legal to copy media that is copy protected. If you loose or
break a DVD, by law you can contact the publisher and request another
copy of the disk by trading in one of the "proof of purchases" from the
media's box. So if you want keep backing up your DVD illegally, there
are other options that won't land you in jail or a heavy fine.

Software is the same, when you buy software in a retail environment you
do not own it. You have simply have purchased a license to use the
software. The full ownership is however still retained by the software
developer or publisher.

Even open sourced software purchased in a retail environment is not
purchased for ownership. You have simply purchased the cost of
packaging, shipping, and a support from the company of distribution. In
open source it does give you the flexibility to rewrite and share the
software.

The most effective tool against piracy is to lower the cost, less reason
to steal something if it isn't out of most pirates pocket book.

The second effective way is to conduct more police raids on known
software pirates. Unfortunately this option is costly for steak outs and
manpower involved.

Lastly you have software redundancy checks, which have been there for a
while. Most generations of software has created some way to prevent the
illegal installation of software on unlicensed machines.

NO software distributor has the RIGHT to "license our personal property
(our MACHINES)", so NO such "machine" is "unlicensed", since the USER
HIMSELF is the one who is licensed to use shrink-wrapped software, NOT the
machine. ONLY GOVERNMENTS have the right to license our PROPERTY, as in
the U.K., where one must purchase a license for each TV set he owns.

Get this through your HEADS, my friends, before Microsoft puts one over on
you and the rest of the American (and the rest of the world's) Public's
heads.

This new "Retail" license of Vista is EXACTLY like the OLD "Generic OEM"
license of XP, with the exception of being able to install the OS on a
second machine, after removing it from the original machine, and even MORE
RESTRICTIVE conditions, such as the inability to install Vista Home in a
virtual machine.

Don't any of you READ your EULA?
I advise you to READ the Generic OEM EULA for XP, then compare it with the
so-called "Retail" license for Vista.

You will soon see that the Vista "Retail" license is MUCH more restrictive
than the old "OEM" license for XP, and at two to three times the price.

I can imagine how restrictive any "Generic OEM" license for Vista will be,
if there is even one available (I certainly have my doubts about this.)

Get your heads out of the sand, folks.

Donald
-------------------------------------------
 
D

Donald L McDaniel

Totally agreed and it's AND for both. A common sense of economics will tell
the relationship between demand and price. But others suggested another
point which might also be valid - it may not work in a "saturated" market,
where demands are relied on replacements. It is how to "encourage" (or
"force" using a more negative term) to purchase "replacements".

Admittedly, I don't know their intensions for doing so. But for whatever it
is, it's not a fair deal.


This is the area that puzzled me the most, and this is also a common sense
sort of speaking. If someone (especially career criminals) really wants to
break into your home, chances are they can regardless what kind of security
measurements are in place. Of course, that doesn't mean no security is
needed.

In fact, I've been using the same analogy for defending MS should not be
totally responsible for the security issues. They have their own shares but
everyone including users and justice system also need to carry their own
fair shares. But this is another issue which I won't elaborate.

But I'm reluctant to believe folks in Redmond campus don't know this common
sense, and that only leads me to the conspiracy theory which is - they do
and it's just an excuse for executing the "replacement purchase" mentioned
earlier.

Finally, because all these bad practices, it brings back the fundamental
question about the fairness of the license in the first place.

Software makers can get away from the damages caused by their products, and
not reliable for anything? And the "license to use the software" is bound
to what? A device (which is??), a PC (which is??), a person, or a company?
Since I'm not a lawyer, I hate people playing legal games and smart tricks
on wordings, and that's just how I felt about this EULA.

Sir, NO private company has the right (at least in the United States) to
license a citizen's personal property (his computer/computers). Such
rights are restricted to the GOVERNMENT exclusively, as in the U.K., where
one must purchase a license for each TV he purchases.

So the machine is NOT the "Licensee", the OWNER of the machine is. This is
a general principle of Law, which anyone who has had even one course in
Business Law should be aware of.

In other words, when we purchase a copy of shrink-wrapped software, we are
purchasing a LICENSE to USE the software on our personal property.

Since a piece of software cannot install itself (at least in theory), there
must be a human being to install it. In which case, HE is the one being
licensed to use the software, NOT the machine. Almost all EULAs state this
implicitly, if not explicitly.

If one wishes to play the wording game, would a du core CPU counted as one
or two CPUs? What will be the definitions for a single CPU as time moves
on - on physical count or the processing units? The game can go on and on
endlessly and what's the meaning for this?

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with semantics. It has to do with
principles of Law, which we should be aware of, if these corporations are
not to usurp our rights under that Law.
I've been engaged to commercial software licensing that is bound to the
company and can be used one copy at a time, which I consider is fair enough.

Again, it is the COMPANY which is the Licensee, NOT the machines the
COMPANY owns.
The only thing I've learned from all of this mass is that I should have been
much more careful on contributing my part of helping a company to become a
giant - and I just don't know what I might be dealing with.

Actually, you should have paid more attention to your classes in
Business/Corporate Law (as well as your classes in English Grammar -- your
grammar is atrocious).
But I've learned it and it's never too late.

Hopefully, this will teach you the lesson you should have learned then.

Donald
-------------------------------------------
 
X

xfile

Sir, NO private company has the right (at least in the United States) to
license a citizen's personal property (his computer/computers). Such
rights are restricted to the GOVERNMENT exclusively, as in the U.K., where
one must purchase a license for each TV he purchases.

So the machine is NOT the "Licensee", the OWNER of the machine is. This
is
a general principle of Law, which anyone who has had even one course in
Business Law should be aware of.

In other words, when we purchase a copy of shrink-wrapped software, we are
purchasing a LICENSE to USE the software on our personal property.

Since a piece of software cannot install itself (at least in theory),
there
must be a human being to install it. In which case, HE is the one being
licensed to use the software, NOT the machine. Almost all EULAs state
this
implicitly, if not explicitly.

Referring to??

If you're referring to the CPU example, it is for the processors (commonly
called CPU, or it means differently?) restriction in EULA as follow:

"Licensed Device. You may install one copy of the software on the licensed
device. You may
use the software on up to two processors on that device at one time. Except
as provided in the
Storage and Network Use (Ultimate edition) sections below, you may not use
the software on any
other device."

And can you please tell me, what is a "processor"?

I never had any question for the person is the licensee and it is not the
subject of discussion.

The subject is the number of time for a person can transfer the license to a
new "device" and what constitutes a new device?

"INSTALLATION AND USE RIGHTS. Before you use the software under a license,
you must assign
that license to one device (physical hardware system). That device is the
"licensed device." A
hardware partition or blade is considered to be a separate device."

What specifically is a "physical hardware system"?
Again, it is the COMPANY which is the Licensee, NOT the machines the
COMPANY owns


Didn't I say that?

Actually, you should have paid more attention to your classes in
Business/Corporate Law (as well as your classes in English Grammar -- your
grammar is atrocious).

Thanks for that. As I said before, I am not a lawyer and EULA is written
for lawyers only?

I'll pay my attention to grammar too.

Incidentally, I did read EULA and you?

If not, it can be downloaded from here:
http://download.microsoft.com/docum...lish_9d10381d-6fa8-47c7-83b0-c53f722371fa.pdf
 
B

Barry Watzman

Re: "So the machine is NOT the "Licensee", the OWNER of the machine is."

And

Re: "we are purchasing a LICENSE to USE the software on our personal
property"

The licensee is the purchaser (the person), but the license is to use
the software on one particular machine, that being the machine on which
it is first installed. If those are the terms of the license agreement,
they are enforceable. Of course, from that starting point, you may then
be allowed to move the licensed software to another machine {once,
twice, an infinite number of times .... whatever the license terms say}.
 

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