R
Ron Reaugh
Lil' Dave said:
Nope, for most there is recovery.
And in worst case isn't all that expensive to replace.
Nope, for most there is recovery.
And in worst case isn't all that expensive to replace.
C
CeeBee
alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus:
But why _do_ people call tech support? Exactly - when they have
_problems_.
And where did I state that you shouldn't flash BIOS if you have problems?
Exactly. _Nowhere_.
I said: "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
I did _not_ say: "even when it's broke, don't _ever_ fix it".
If your system works properly on a daily basis, you won't experience
problems - why would you? After all you didn't change anything.
You're very convinced about the risk of BIOS flashing being "next to
ZERO" as an argument to flash, so logically that means you're convinced
that the risk you will run into problems with your current BIOS running
smoothly on an unchanged configuration will be considerably bigger than
that.
There's no fact supporting your statement. The vast majority of PC users
never flash their BIOS, and never run into hardware problems without
changing their systems. All they do is push the on/off button, push the
keys on the keyboard, and use their mouse. If they run into problems, it's
_software_ problems.
As soon as you start swapping components, you might decide to flash BIOS -
either before swapping, or after running into problems.
But that was not what I was talking about. As I stated clearly in my
original message:
Flashing BIOS because you're changing configuration isn't "doing it
because you can". It's doing it because you're changing configuration and
have reasons to believe you might run into BIOS trouble.
But we were discussing BIOS flashing, not giant meteor impacts.
BIOS flashing is a very common occurance. Are you implying that there are
as many giant meteor impacts a year as BIOS flashes?
Are you suggesting that there are on a yearly basis more people
experiencing "unfortunate consequences" from giant meteor impacts than
there are people experiencing "unfortunate consequences" from BIOS flashes
thus making it a valid comparison?
Even if the score in this newsgroup alone (a few in the last few days) is
all there is, your statement about comparable risks has been proven
invalid already.
Before you start repeating your beliefs like a mantra - and you have every
right to do that- also remember to carefully read what I said.
In your responses you talk about nothing but the need for BIOS flashes
because of people encountering problems, people calling tech support - how
interesting that might be - I wasn't talking about people with problems.
Well, on a sidenote: given the reliability of home computer systems
created and support by those "competent techies since 1980" that's hardly
a recommendation in my opinion.
--
CeeBee
"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."
But why _do_ people call tech support? Exactly - when they have
_problems_.
And where did I state that you shouldn't flash BIOS if you have problems?
Exactly. _Nowhere_.
I said: "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
I did _not_ say: "even when it's broke, don't _ever_ fix it".
If your system works properly on a daily basis, you won't experience
problems - why would you? After all you didn't change anything.
You're very convinced about the risk of BIOS flashing being "next to
ZERO" as an argument to flash, so logically that means you're convinced
that the risk you will run into problems with your current BIOS running
smoothly on an unchanged configuration will be considerably bigger than
that.
There's no fact supporting your statement. The vast majority of PC users
never flash their BIOS, and never run into hardware problems without
changing their systems. All they do is push the on/off button, push the
keys on the keyboard, and use their mouse. If they run into problems, it's
_software_ problems.
As soon as you start swapping components, you might decide to flash BIOS -
either before swapping, or after running into problems.
But that was not what I was talking about. As I stated clearly in my
original message:
Flashing BIOS because you're changing configuration isn't "doing it
because you can". It's doing it because you're changing configuration and
have reasons to believe you might run into BIOS trouble.
But we were discussing BIOS flashing, not giant meteor impacts.
BIOS flashing is a very common occurance. Are you implying that there are
as many giant meteor impacts a year as BIOS flashes?
Are you suggesting that there are on a yearly basis more people
experiencing "unfortunate consequences" from giant meteor impacts than
there are people experiencing "unfortunate consequences" from BIOS flashes
thus making it a valid comparison?
Even if the score in this newsgroup alone (a few in the last few days) is
all there is, your statement about comparable risks has been proven
invalid already.
Before you start repeating your beliefs like a mantra - and you have every
right to do that- also remember to carefully read what I said.
In your responses you talk about nothing but the need for BIOS flashes
because of people encountering problems, people calling tech support - how
interesting that might be - I wasn't talking about people with problems.
Well, on a sidenote: given the reliability of home computer systems
created and support by those "competent techies since 1980" that's hardly
a recommendation in my opinion.
--
CeeBee
"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."
B
Barry Watzman
It would seem to me that there is a solution to this ("very few
motherboard BIOSes fully support El-Torito - most can handle ... but
very few properly support hard disk emulation, 2.88MB floppy emulation,
or multiple boot images.").
The CD boots a layer of code that totally ignores the BIOS and "takes
over" the entire machine, using the bios only for hardware specific
functions. That layer, in turn, could do all of the things that BIOS
didn't.
motherboard BIOSes fully support El-Torito - most can handle ... but
very few properly support hard disk emulation, 2.88MB floppy emulation,
or multiple boot images.").
The CD boots a layer of code that totally ignores the BIOS and "takes
over" the entire machine, using the bios only for hardware specific
functions. That layer, in turn, could do all of the things that BIOS
didn't.
R
Ron Reaugh
CeeBee said:
And I said with a BIOS you don't know if it's broke so always flash the
latest mobo BIOS BEFORE any problem gets a chance to jump out. The recent
case of SP2+Prescott+boothang proves my point.
What you are now doing is diving deep into double talk and jibber.
HUH?
C
CeeBee
Why would you be certain that the latetst BIOS version is _not_ "broke"?
If you don't encounter problems with the previous BIOS, why would you be
sure to not encounter problems with the new BIOS? Your logic is something
special.
Either you really don't grasp why your response was no answer to what I
said, or you simply want to fanatically make your point by ridiculing me,
like whit the "giant meteor impact comparison".
Why do you need to resort to such lousy methods to make your point? Can't
you discuss normally? Without cheap incantations? Responding to the facts
and arguments the other gives, and not by evading them obviously to spread
your opinions as the new gospel?
Exactly. Brick walls and evangelists don't have ears to listen with.
--
CeeBee
"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."
R
Ron Reaugh
CeeBee said:
No, my logic is how most competent PC techies have been operating for years
now. Always install the latest device drivers, program updates and the
mobo's BIOS is no different. No different from the fact that MS WANTS
everyone to enable automatic updates. Keep current. Keep ahead of
problems. Be in the best position to debug a problem if one arises. STAY
CURRENT.
C
CeeBee
alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus:
Good. That's your gospel. I have no problem accepting that.
Just don't present your beliefs as the best _factual_ action or as
logic. Just present it as what it is: that what you firmly believe. You
have that right.
The advantage is that by presenting it as your personal religion you
don't have counter other's facts with non-answers, or differing opinions
with out-of-the-blue ridicule or condescending remarks.
Happy flashing.
--
CeeBee
"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."
Good. That's your gospel. I have no problem accepting that.
Just don't present your beliefs as the best _factual_ action or as
logic. Just present it as what it is: that what you firmly believe. You
have that right.
The advantage is that by presenting it as your personal religion you
don't have counter other's facts with non-answers, or differing opinions
with out-of-the-blue ridicule or condescending remarks.
Happy flashing.
--
CeeBee
"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."
R
Ron Reaugh
CeeBee said:
I consider those running around saying oh no don't flash as you'll likely
destroy your mobo as purveyors of malicious damaging nonsense...."oh no
don't fix it if it ain't busted". Vary bad advice bordering on malicious
and worthy of attack. To cover their ridiculous position they make up
horror stories about bad effects.
Just say NO! Just stay CURRENT!
C
CeeBee
alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus:
<snip frothing and ranting>
Just what we needed.
Another Usenet kook enters the open road.
--
CeeBee
"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."
<snip frothing and ranting>
Just what we needed.
Another Usenet kook enters the open road.
--
CeeBee
"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."
P
Paul
Ron Reaugh said:
Ron, we consider the option to flash on a case by case basis.
The regulars in this group have to put up with the whining if
a users borks a board, and have to write a long post about
all the things they could try. And that sucks...
If someone has a perfectly good computer, and that user reports
no problems, but on a whim they want to flash the BIOS, we say
"No!". Why ? Profit and loss. There is no profit for that user,
and only potential loss. There should be either a release
note with details indicating the solution to a problem, or
a field report of a problem fixed by a beta BIOS, before
we know for certain there is a potential for profit.
If a user is missing microcode, that is a reason to flash the
BIOS. Since there are utilities to detect the condition, it is
possible to determine whether the flash is necessary, without
just doing it for everyone.
If a user has unknown, debilitating symptoms, that make the
computer useless, then obviously we will answer "Yes!". In
some cases, we can even find in Google, that a certain BIOS
fixes such a problem. But, if a board is functioning badly
in the first place, that increases the risk that the flash
won't work, so again there are limits. For example, if a computer
crashes every 30 seconds, advising to flash the BIOS would be
foolish. It is a lot like surgery - the patient has to be
stable before you can operate.
Ron, we also consider the mentality and attitude of the
poster. There are some people who have visited these
forums before, and based on their history, it is obvious
they are "computer phobic". They have an allergic reaction
when they get near a computer, have low tolerance to frustration,
and will always reach for the wrong control at the wrong time.
They will do something stupid, rather than post a question and
wait for an answer. "I pulled out the plug, because it didn't
look like it was flashing." For those people, the bar gets raised
a lot higher, and it would take extraordinary circumstances before
we would recommend that a person like that flashes the BIOS. So,
sometimes, it will appear like our response is irrational, when
in fact there is a history to consider.
So, you can be a "flash advocate" if you like, but we'll still
weigh the pros and cons based on the evidence given by the
poster.
HTH,
Paul
R
Ron Reaugh
Paul said:
Much of what is in a new BIOS is NOT documented...like CPU microcode.
So there's no case by case because there's no reliable information. The
only option is to stay current.
The vast majority of users capable of even getting here are also capable of
flashing.
Come on this is Usenet. That's a very feeble argument.
NO, there is a profit because that next gadget or program or downloaded
RealPlayer update etc. may break and it just might be because of an out of
date BIOS. The same applies to device driver and program updates etc.
There is no visibility as to the presence or absence of any given version of
CPU microcode nor many other 'new' things so there's no visible "reasons".
The guy who kept his mobo flashed with the latest BIOS is the guy who just
might not have got the SP2 hang with his Prescott.
That's after the fact reactivity and widely recognized to be yesteryears
way. The industry has moved beyond that just as MS strongly suggests that
everybody turn on Automatic Updates.
EXACTLY. That is exactly WHY one should flash PREEMPTIVELY while everything
is in good shape. Always flash the latest BIOS carefully unless there is
reason to be cautious.
Now you seem to be getting it...take the vitamin TODAY to prevent illness
tomorrow.
Professionals in NGs giving good advice do NOT do that to the point of
jeopardizing the overall message. These posts are archived in Google and
elsewhere and are easily searchable. One must always consider the overall
readership on any post.
Therefore the correct rule of thumb is to always flash the latest BIOS
carefully.
Now starts the fairly tales I guess.
It's very easy to state all the necessary cautionary information is you have
a hot one in a thread. The can be done very easily WITHOUT contaminating
the overall message with general bad advice and falsehoods....like "if it
ain't broken don't fix it".
OK, but do NOT contaminate the overall state of good advice by protecting
against the guy who is bent on suicide by cop.
Yes, so now consider that history in its larger perspective.
Fine, good job. BUT do not purvey to the overall user community the
absolutely bad advice "if it ain't broken don't fix it". The proper
message to create the greatest good and most stable computing environment to
the larger user community is "flash the latest BIOS carefully unless there's
a good reason not to."
Ask any true pro who is not constrained by the backwards think of any TS
department/organization's 'policy' what they have been doing personally and
recommending to others who have basic competence since about 2000. They all
tell you "ya that's what I've been doin".
J
John
You could get shafted if the bios flash programs need to write to disk
(CDROM) for any reason
(CDROM) for any reason
P
Paul
Ron Reaugh said:
I don't apply that rule very often. Most people who manage to post
to USENET had to have some clues. It is just some people who ask
questions here frequently, the first question you see is "should
I flash the BIOS ? I'm bored", and if you don't write them a long
diatribe weighing the pros and cons, a day later you'll see
a post "my board won't boot and my screen is black. Can you help
me ? I am going crazy (or somesuch designed to win them pity)".
If you see a train wreck coming, you have to politely ask people
like that, to step off the tracks
Are you aware, Ron, as to how many BIOS have been pulled by Asus,
in a matter of days after their release ? How many BIOS have
restrictions as to which flashing methods work and which ones don't ?
How many boards have a ticking time bomb inside, when the initial
release BIOS has a bad Crashfree module in it, that is guaranteed
to kill the board the first time it is invoked ? The release
quality has been going downhill, and that is not encouraging.
Two releases of A7N8X BIOS were pulled in a row, due to problems.
(You would think the first quality problem would alert them of
the need for more care.) After that, what would you advise the
owner of an Asus Nforce2 product to do, when the next BIOS after
the two pulled ones appears ? Say a prayer ? User error is one
issue, but the design errors by Asus also have to be taken into
consideration when giving advice.
If the quality of the flashing tools and testing quality of
release BIOS improves, so will the tone of the average
Google posting on the subject. If more manufacturers used
dual BIOS chips, we wouldn't have any reservation about
flashing, as you could bork the spare as much as you like.
Paul
R
Ron Reaugh
Paul said:
Google shows no hits for that.
NOPE, it's very short...always flash the latest BIOS carefully.
You boiled that out of free space. Can you cite a thread sequence that
supports that?
You are a relative newcomer here. Google before 2002 on "flash the latest"
in *.asus
If you see a train wreck coming, you have to politely ask people
like that, to step off the tracks
Are you aware, Ron, as to how many BIOS have been pulled by Asus,
in a matter of days after their release ? How many BIOS have
restrictions as to which flashing methods work and which ones don't ?
VERY VERY FEW that end in a DOA mobo.. now are you aware of any such cases
then provide the citations.
Citations please.
Nope, generally uphill since 1999.
Pure crap and FUD. Cite the cases that end in the DREADED dead mobo or our
you blowing something.
You need to gain a little deeper experience and background before you are
able to get the proper perspective.
Always flash the latest BIOS carefully.
R
Ron Reaugh
John said:
"shafted"...not hardly.
You might arrive at a situation where the full functionality is impaired
because of the read only boot media. You will NOT end up with a bad flash
due to that.
P
Paul D. Motzenbecker, Jr.
Ron, Paul et al:
Greetings and hallucinations from just north of Fantasy Land (Washington,
DC)!
Only flash a BIOS to correct a problem. If it ain't broke, don't fix it is
an old proverb. Years ago I had a board that needed a BIOS update to
recognize a new chip. That was grand, but the chip would not function
properly without the BIOS. However, the first upgrade made it take 5 minutes
to boot. The second one was faster, if and only if it managed to get the
system booted and not locked up. Only did the last one work properly.
Remember that with a new BIOS you are gamma testing the critter.
Peace,
Paul
Greetings and hallucinations from just north of Fantasy Land (Washington,
DC)!
Only flash a BIOS to correct a problem. If it ain't broke, don't fix it is
an old proverb. Years ago I had a board that needed a BIOS update to
recognize a new chip. That was grand, but the chip would not function
properly without the BIOS. However, the first upgrade made it take 5 minutes
to boot. The second one was faster, if and only if it managed to get the
system booted and not locked up. Only did the last one work properly.
Remember that with a new BIOS you are gamma testing the critter.
Peace,
Paul
N
Noozer
Paul D. Motzenbecker said:
<snip>
Small piece of advice - TRIM your postings...
P
Philip Callan
Paul said:
Gamma testing? that explains why the post messages changed after
flashing my bios, now it says "Your CPU is making me angry, it won't
like me when I'm angry"
J
JBM
<snipped>Paul D. Motzenbecker said:
I always keep my board flashed with the latest BIOS.
To me it's more a matter of maintaining your system so it doesn't
break.
Jim M
C
CeeBee
A mobo doesn't "break" from an older version of bios. It might give
problems with newer hardware if you install it.
A mobo might however occasionaly "break" from a BIOS flash operation.
That shouldn't withhold you from flashing to the latetst BIOS though,
but the saying about not being "broken" and being not in need of
repairing still holds.
--
CeeBee
"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."