Are you sure that belongs in pricelesswarehome.org... ?

?

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=

'The history of PL' is basically one based on the whims of the
maintainer of PL who makes up the rules as needed

No, I don't believe it's been based on someone's whims. If I thought
things were currently based on capricious impulses of Susan's, I
wouldn't bother discussing the PL.

You and I disagree at too fundamental a level for me to feel that any
good would come of continuing to engage you, so I'll let the rest of
your assertions and ideas stand without rebuttal, except to note that
I don't think "fear and hatred" play a role in the PL process.
 
J

JP Loken

JP;

Keep an eye on clamwin (http://www.clamwin.com/). Free, open-source
anti virus. Current versions integrate w/Outlook for on-open email &
attachment scanning.

It may not be as polished or automatic as antivir yet but, it should be
soon enough.

hth,
-Craig

Thanks for the reminder.
I checked it out some time ago, but by then there were some concerns about
the quality of the scans.
I'll take another look in the near future. :)
 
S

Susan Bugher

Aaron said:
I'm proposing a better way to 'play game'.

Voting on ware types is too abstract. A lot of software don't fall into
them anyway. And there's an extra step trying to pigeonhole stuff into
liteware/crippleware/registerware, then checking to see if it is allowed
on PL.

Let's cut out the middleman, and just vote on properties that are
disallowed.

Example please.

Susan
--
Posted to alt.comp.freeware
Search alt.comp.freeware (or read it online):
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Pricelessware: http://www.pricelessware.org (not maintained)
 
S

Susan Bugher

Aaron said:
So basically if enough 'keep' votes are cast, it stays in?
Yes.

If so nagware is acceptable simply if enough people vote for it?

Yes.

http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/2006/2006PL-Procedures.php
"The glossary's ware descriptions don't cover all situations. In special
cases programs may be placed on a Ware Ballot to determine if the
program's ware description is acceptable to newsgroup participants."
How about shareware? :)

Theoretically possible. Newsgroup participants make the rules. We could
decide to allow Shareware on the Pricelessware List. I'd say the
*likelihood* of that event is low. IMO it might happen sometime after
hell freezes over. . . ;)

Susan
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Posted to alt.comp.freeware
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Pricelessware: http://www.pricelessware.org (not maintained)
 
G

Guest

Klaatu said:
Well said. I agree.

Although I'm a relative newbie on this group, I disagree. Unless they
actually interfere with the use of the software, I just ignore the nags.

Norm Strong
 
R

Roger Johansson

Susan said:
IMO it might happen sometime after hell freezes over. . . ;)

The people who have hard minds and precise words and definitions have
ruled for a long time, but the weaker and nicer minds are more numerous
than might be expected, so it could happen, hell _could_ freeze over
:)

The relaxed and easygoing people might decide to speak out and express
their views. They only need to know that it is possible.

There is only one fixed rule in a democracy, the people rule.
Everything else can be changed if the readers want that.

It is not like we are managing a nuclear power plant, it's just an open
forum about free software, there is no need for all the legal talk.
This could be a relaxed community. We can make up our own rules as we
go along.
 
S

Susan Bugher

Roger said:
Susan Bugher wrote:
There is only one fixed rule in a democracy, the people rule.
Everything else can be changed if the readers want that.

Glad you agree. :) You only quoted a snippet - the full paragraph:

"Theoretically possible. Newsgroup participants make the rules. We could
decide to allow Shareware on the Pricelessware List. I'd say the
*likelihood* of that event is low. IMO it might happen sometime after
hell freezes over. . . "

BTW - I stand by that prediction. ;)

Susan
--
Posted to alt.comp.freeware
Search alt.comp.freeware (or read it online):
http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?q=+group:alt.comp.freeware
Pricelessware & ACF: http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
Pricelessware: http://www.pricelessware.org (not maintained)
 
H

Helen

Roger said:
The people who have hard minds and precise words and definitions have
ruled for a long time, but the weaker and nicer minds are more
numerous than might be expected, so it could happen, hell _could_
freeze over :)

The relaxed and easygoing people might decide to speak out and express
their views.

Sooo, I suppose one could fight the destruction (fire with fire) by resorting to
the dishonest practice of voting more than once? When one deals with
destroyers, he must play by their rules. Those who want "non-freeware"
need to go elsewhere.

It only takes one spoon full of dog poop to change the character of gormet cookies.


They only need to know that it is possible.

There is only one fixed rule in a democracy, the people rule.

LOL! You are kidding, right? FWIW, the USA is not and never has been a democracy.

Everything else can be changed if the readers want that.


It is not like we are managing a nuclear power plant, it's just an
open forum about free software, there is no need for all the legal
talk. This could be a relaxed community. We can make up our own rules
as we go along.

WE HAVE! You disagree, then go start YOUR own newsgroup and surround yourself
with those no-rules ideas. BTW have you ever tried to nail jello to a wall? Try it!
I think it would suit you.
 
R

Roger Johansson

Helen said:
It only takes one spoon full of dog poop to change the character of gormet cookies.

Yes, I know exactly what you are talking about.
Among the partying people a madman with a leadpipe or a kalaschnikov
looking angry, that can destroy the atmosphere of any party.

But maybe you are upset over people who draw caricatures?
LOL! You are kidding, right? FWIW, the USA is not and never has been a democracy.

Sounds like you are proud of that.
 
D

Daniel Mandic

Helen said:
LOL! You are kidding, right? FWIW, the USA is not and never has
been a democracy.

You have too less parties for being a democracy. You should at least
combine the natives!

Here were I live are the natives the strongest party, or they, who
speak at most and keeping care of that tradition.
Similar to the Indians, they wear (quiet ol' - about
1800-2000)traditional clothes etc. etc. etc, etc. etc. etc, etc.
But also similar to your high legislative, they have not really a
contact to the nature anymore :-( (I tell them the car-driver party,
bez. it seems to me that's all they can, Milk is bad, Bread is
extensively expensive, air is shit, and they are getting richer for the
cost of too/the many ways for their own way)

Righters, what should I say more. Making Isles of trash, were no man
can place its feets (gas) - pfui, igitt --- what is that?? culture?
SHIT!

I see nowhere a democracy. Recycling is the solution. If you cannot
recycle, you cannot be a democrat. Then you are not even the shithole
of it - more the place underneath :)

Sorry I write in the third form, I don't mean you Helen!




Best Regards,

Daniel Mandic
 
K

Klaatu

The relaxed and easygoing people might decide to speak out and express
their views. They only need to know that it is possible.

Sure. And the meek will inherit the earth, if nobody minds...
 
A

Aaron

Example please.

Susan

The following qualities will disqualify any software from entry. Please
vote, allowed or not allowed.

1. Software displays static, fixed advertisements of other products and
services (not related to the current software) on starting program.

2. Software displays static, fixed advertisements asking you to register
or purchase paid product.

3. Software displays dynamic advertisements by contacting online server
on starting program.

4. Author of Software requests that you do something such as sending a
postcard or email to the software author, perform a good deed, make a
contribution to charity post card

5. Software which stops working after a period of time or number of uses.

6. Software that is stolen, and/or enabled, by illegal means.

7. Software that is time limited

8. Software that is in beta.

9. Software has features that are 'greyed out' in the interface.

etc

Many but not all of them map perfectly into what we call registerware,
warez, donationware, betaware etc, but given that we are voting to
disallow software based on what they do, and not what they are called, it
seems better to vote on properties rather than just names/labels whose
definition changes from year to year!

For instance, what is Adware or nagware? Typically a couple of guys will
argue about the definitions (most of the group doesn't get involved),
then ask the group to vote.

Seems to me you are doing this backwards, who cares how adware/nagware is
defined! The idea is to exclude software because of what it does, not how
we label it right? Or are we assuming that adware and nagware will always
be disallowed? :)

Instead of trying to create a definition for some imaginary ware type, on
the assumption that such ideal forms exist, let's just throw out features
and vote on them.

We can also add new properties to the list to disallow when necessary
rather than try to come up with some new cute ware type name, or to
change existing ware type definitions to fit.

It also avoids misunderstandings, people may have their own idea about
what adware/nagware is, and will vote or object/nominate based on that,
rather than the definitions you came up with and changes every year.

And when people object to nominations it's way easier to object by saying
, Antivir/Powerdesk is out because it fits #5. Rather than says both are
nagware, and then look up the definition and realise, surprise surprise
the latter isn't. :)

It also provides precision. FOr example look at the following definition

"Adware: software that displays advertising for other products and/or
services (often downloaded from the internet by the software). "

We can now split the 2 properties there

1) displays advertisng for other products and

2)Downloaded from the internet by software

into seperate citera for voting if needed.


The main drawback i can see is that, if you do it this way, fewer people
might join in the vote because it takes a lot more effort to think about
what you are disallowing rather than coasting on labels like nagware,
spyware, adware etc.

And to tell you the truth, having a short hand way of referring to stuff
, sounds cool to me. But it just isn't good for playing the game.
 
D

Dewey Edwards

The following qualities will disqualify any software from entry. Please
vote, allowed or not allowed.

OK, I'll bite. My opinions.
1. Software displays static, fixed advertisements of other products and
services (not related to the current software) on starting program.

Doesn't even qualify for normal discussion in the NG.
2. Software displays static, fixed advertisements asking you to register
or purchase paid product.

Nagware, NO to Pl, but case by case as to proper in the NG.
3. Software displays dynamic advertisements by contacting online server
on starting program.

Doesn't even qualify for normal discussion in the NG.
4. Author of Software requests that you do something such as sending a
postcard or email to the software author, perform a good deed, make a
contribution to charity post card

As it's voluntary, that is fine.
5. Software which stops working after a period of time or number of uses.

Doesn't even qualify for normal discussion in the NG.
6. Software that is stolen, and/or enabled, by illegal means.

Doesn't even qualify for normal discussion in the NG.
7. Software that is time limited

Doesn't even qualify for normal discussion in the NG.
8. Software that is in beta.

OK to discuss in the NG. As to the PL, case by case based on the
group.
9. Software has features that are 'greyed out' in the interface.

OK to discuss in the NG. As to the PL, case by case based on the
group. (I would vote against)
Many but not all of them map perfectly into what we call registerware,
warez, donationware, betaware etc, but given that we are voting to
disallow software based on what they do, and not what they are called, it
seems better to vote on properties rather than just names/labels whose
definition changes from year to year!

For instance, what is Adware or nagware? Typically a couple of guys will
argue about the definitions (most of the group doesn't get involved),
then ask the group to vote.

Seems to me you are doing this backwards, who cares how adware/nagware is
defined! The idea is to exclude software because of what it does, not how
we label it right? Or are we assuming that adware and nagware will always
be disallowed? :)

I hope so. (adware/nagware disallowed from PL)
Instead of trying to create a definition for some imaginary ware type, on
the assumption that such ideal forms exist, let's just throw out features
and vote on them.

I think that may be premature, but your post may bring replies which
enlighten us both.
We can also add new properties to the list to disallow when necessary
rather than try to come up with some new cute ware type name, or to
change existing ware type definitions to fit.

OK, but there will be those that just as you today do to definitions,
will object to the "PL properites"
It also avoids misunderstandings, people may have their own idea about
what adware/nagware is, and will vote or object/nominate based on that,
rather than the definitions you came up with and changes every year.

Software evolves, and so does adware/nagware. Whether we add new
definitions or new properties (or enhance their definition), someone
will misunderstand.
And when people object to nominations it's way easier to object by saying
, Antivir/Powerdesk is out because it fits #5. Rather than says both are
nagware, and then look up the definition and realise, surprise surprise
the latter isn't. :)

I have reservations on this, but I pause. Looking forward to a
preview of what #5 will be.
It also provides precision. FOr example look at the following definition

"Adware: software that displays advertising for other products and/or
services (often downloaded from the internet by the software). "

We can now split the 2 properties there

1) displays advertisng for other products and

2)Downloaded from the internet by software

into seperate citera for voting if needed.

Neither is acceptable.
 
J

jacaranda

Doesn't even qualify for normal discussion in the NG.

I don't normally follow the "ware" discussions, but my interest has
suddenly piqued because of PowerDesk. :D It seems the thing missing here
is whether or not the "display" is something you actually notice, or if
it's unobtrusive. I'm not arguing to change any definitions, but simply
to observe that real-life examples can be at odds with what we *think*
the definitions are addressing. For example, for me, the "display" in
PowerDesk is so inubtrusive, I never even noticed it till it was pointed
out. On the other hand, actual "nag screens" that pop up in your face
are definitely something to be avoided. And I thought that was the only
issue in the older version of PowerDesk, but the nag screen came up so
rarely (like once a year), that it seemed like a non-issue.

Not that any of this matters lol. Pricelessware is not the end-all be-
all, and we can still discuss whatever we want in the group as long as we
put an OT in front of it. But I don't think I'm ready to put an OT in
front of PowerDesk since it doesn't seem to meet a common-sense
definition of an objectionable software. JMO.

In sum, I'm just expressing an opinion here, but am not lobbying for any
changes. Whether it's in PW or not doesn't make a huge difference to me.
*I* know it's a valuable piece of software...and it's free in terms of
common usage.. That's really all that matters to me. :)
 
A

Aaron

OK, I'll bite. My opinions.

Er. I was just randomly giving examples of how voting should work, it
wasn't meant to be a real poll. You seem to think I'm trying to get
adware or nagware into PL, I'm not.
I hope so. (adware/nagware disallowed from PL)

This is exactly what I mean, the term adware/nagware alone scares the
hell out of you and you say no way! Shouldn't you at least look at the
definition of adware/nagware first? Remember, what the group considers
and defines as adware/nagware might not be the same as what you think it
is.

Are you presuming that your idea of nagware/adware is always the one the
group adopts? :)
I think that may be premature, but your post may bring replies which
enlighten us both.

I don't know about you, but you are making my point for me. :)
OK, but there will be those that just as you today do to definitions,
will object to the "PL properites"

I have no problem with people being against nags! I just think it's damn
fishy, when people say nagware/ adware will always be out, even without
looking at the definition. :)

Software evolves, and so does adware/nagware. Whether we add new
definitions or new properties (or enhance their definition), someone
will misunderstand.

Software evolves yes, but people think they know what
adware/nagware/liteware means, even though we change and amend the
definition every year. :)

2007's nagware might be a completely different thing from 2006's. And yet
do you see people talking about the difference? Can someone tell me
without looking it up, what changes in definition for liteware occured
between 2005 and 2004?

What about the different definitions mentioned by say JC and his FAQ?
When he says Nagware it seems he is talking about a different nagware
from what Susan says! And yet We all talk about nagware/liteware/adware
as if we all agree on their definitions!

Q, Susan , JC are probably among the most hard core of the 'formalists'
people here, and they don't even agree among themselves. Q has to look up
the definition to discover what he initally thought was nagware, wasn't.
:)


I have reservations on this, but I pause. Looking forward to a
preview of what #5 will be.

LOL. You seem to think I'm proposing we allow adware/nagware etc into PL.

I'm not. I'm just proposing a system.

Neither is acceptable.

Again, the point isn't what you think is acceptable or not my friend.
 
A

Aaron

I don't normally follow the "ware" discussions, but my interest has
suddenly piqued because of PowerDesk. :D It seems the thing missing
here is whether or not the "display" is something you actually notice,
or if it's unobtrusive. >I'm not arguing to change any definitions,
but simply to observe that real-life examples can be at odds with what
we *think* the definitions are addressing. For example, for me, the
"display" in PowerDesk is so inubtrusive, I never even noticed it till
it was pointed out. On the other hand, actual "nag screens" that pop
up in your face are definitely something to be avoided.

Actually, I guess most people would agree with you. But it's easier to
call everything nagware, and then vote against it. But when people vote
for actual entries, they suddenly become pragmatic...

Not that any of this matters lol. Pricelessware is not the end-all
be- all, and we can still discuss whatever we want in the group as
long as we put an OT in front of it. But I don't think I'm ready to
put an OT in front of PowerDesk since it doesn't seem to meet a
common-sense definition of an objectionable software. JMO.

You won't need to. According to Q, who has checked the definitions,
Powerdesk doesn't strictly meet the definition of nagware *as currently
stated*. No doubt, the powers that be, will amend the definitions soon to
plug this technical loophole.

In sum, I'm just expressing an opinion here, but am not lobbying for
any changes. Whether it's in PW or not doesn't make a huge difference
to me. *I* know it's a valuable piece of software...and it's free in
terms of common usage.. That's really all that matters to me. :)

I think i shall follow your lead....
 
?

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=

Q has to look up the definition to discover what he initally
thought was nagware, wasn't.
:)

No, that's incorrect. I had to download and install the software to
find that there wasn't a popup nag. I would have had to do exactly the
same thing under your proposed reworking of the rules.
 
S

Susan Bugher

LOL. You seem to think I'm proposing we allow adware/nagware etc into PL.

I'm not. I'm just proposing a system.

I don't understand how your system works. Who does what when? What are
we deciding when we vote?

The current system has *three* review/voting periods related to ware
descriptions:

1. An annual review of the *definitions* in the ACF Ware Glossary.
2. An annual review of the *rules* for selecting Pricelessware programs.
3. A vote on making *exceptions* to the rules for specific programs.

IMO our present *system* is adequate. The problems come when we put
theory into practice. The PL rules say certain ware types are
prohibited. We don't do a very good job of *identifying* apps that
should either be prohibited or placed on a Pricelessware Ware Ballot
(one of the apps on the current ballot was actually labeled as Nagware
and still managed to slip through during the PL2006 selection process).

I don't see anything in your proposed that will alleviate current
problems. ISTM we'll do a better job of "practicing what we preach" and
"preaching what we practice" if and *only* if more people pay more
attention to ware descriptions and ware rules.

Susan
--
Posted to alt.comp.freeware
Search alt.comp.freeware (or read it online):
http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?q=+group:alt.comp.freeware
Pricelessware & ACF: http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
Pricelessware: http://www.pricelessware.org (not maintained)
 
S

Susan Bugher

No, that's incorrect. I had to download and install the software to
find that there wasn't a popup nag.

When an app has a history of intermittent nags I don't think one short
test *proves* it's not Nagware. . .

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that there wasn't a popup nag during
the time you tested it. IIRC Trillian's nag first appeared after 2000
hours of use.

I would have had to do exactly the
same thing under your proposed reworking of the rules.

Susan
--
Posted to alt.comp.freeware
Search alt.comp.freeware (or read it online):
http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?q=+group:alt.comp.freeware
Pricelessware & ACF: http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
Pricelessware: http://www.pricelessware.org (not maintained)
 
?

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=

When an app has a history of intermittent nags I don't think one
short test *proves* it's not Nagware. . .

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that there wasn't a popup nag
during the time you tested it.

That's true, and I didn't test it for long.
IIRC Trillian's nag first appeared
after 2000 hours of use.

After 1000, I think it was, but who's counting? ;)
 

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