Are you sure that belongs in pricelesswarehome.org... ?

J

John Corliss

Susan said:
Does Nonags have a definition for Nagware?

they say:

http://www.nonags.com/nonags/antivirus.html

AntiVir Personal Edition Ver 6.13.00.xx for Win9x/ME (3.9 mb)
AntiVir Personal Edition Ver 6.13.00.xx for NT4/Win2k/XP (3.9 mb)

"the private and individual use of AntiVir Personal Edition at home is
completely free of charge! No annoying ads, nags or popups. No special
conditions or restrictions."

we say:

http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/2006/PL2006SECURITY.php#0055-PW

AntiVir PersonalEdition Classic (AntiVir Personal Edition)
(Liteware) (Nagware) (Registerware: keyed) (free for personal use)

I just alerted them that it might be nagware via their website and also
via a direct email.

It's kind of easy to miss something like that, especially if they've
been listing it for a long time and Antivir recently started the nagging.

From what I've read in this group about Antivir, they're doing a
periodic type of nag and that throws yet another complication in the
matter. Of course it's still nagware, but it's a sneaky kind of nag.

The front page of the Pricelessware site says "The best of the best in
Freeware". I guess the whole point of the ongoing argument is simply,
"Is nagware now going to be considered to be a type of freeware?"

My opinion is a clear and strong *no*. As I said before, allowing it in
is a toe in the door. What's next, adware?

--
Regards from John Corliss
I don't reply to trolls like Andy Mabbett, Doc (who uses sock puppets)
or Roger Johansson, for instance. No adware, cdware, commercial
software, crippleware, demoware, nagware, PROmotionware, shareware,
spyware, time-limited software, trialware, viruses or warez for me, please.
 
D

Dewey Edwards

"da rules" prohibit Nagware. Exceptions can be made via the Ware Ballot.
These apps should have been on a PL2006 ware ballot - they weren't. IOW
- they haven't had their day in court.

Guess they're getting their day now. said:
If you think Nagware is always okay on the PL - or you think it's okay
in the case of one or both of these apps please tell me you think the
apps should stay.

If you think Nagware is never okay on the Pl - or you think it's not
okay in the case of one or both of these apps please tell me you think
the apps should be removed.

Off with their heads!
 
S

Susan Bugher

B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson said:
Btw.: I barely read one-tenth of all posts. Ballots usually get a clear
header. That's why I think chances are high that people will miss this
ballot. @Susan: How about a separate thread? You can post a list of the
already cast votes, there, to avoid the need of a new vote.

Good points. I'll post a [PL] ware ballot thread - allow one week for
voting etc. etc.

Susan
--
Posted to alt.comp.freeware
Search alt.comp.freeware (or read it online):
http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?q=+group:alt.comp.freeware
Pricelessware & ACF: http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
Pricelessware: http://www.pricelessware.org (not maintained)
 
K

Klaatu

Ok, just in case my discussion posts didn't make it clear <g>, I think
nagware is never ok for the PL and that these two should be removed.

Well said. I agree.
 
S

Susan Bugher

John said:
Susan Bugher wrote:
I just alerted them that it might be nagware via their website and also
via a direct email.
From what I've read in this group about Antivir, they're doing a
periodic type of nag and that throws yet another complication in the
matter. Of course it's still nagware, but it's a sneaky kind of nag.

Agree - intermittent nags often don't show up in a quick test of an app.
Dr. Jeckyl at first, Mr. Hyde later on. . .

Susan
--
Posted to alt.comp.freeware
Search alt.comp.freeware (or read it online):
http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?q=+group:alt.comp.freeware
Pricelessware & ACF: http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
Pricelessware: http://www.pricelessware.org (not maintained)
 
K

Kerodo

I just alerted them that it might be nagware via their website and also
via a direct email.

It's kind of easy to miss something like that, especially if they've
been listing it for a long time and Antivir recently started the nagging.

From what I've read in this group about Antivir, they're doing a
periodic type of nag and that throws yet another complication in the
matter. Of course it's still nagware, but it's a sneaky kind of nag.

The front page of the Pricelessware site says "The best of the best in
Freeware". I guess the whole point of the ongoing argument is simply,
"Is nagware now going to be considered to be a type of freeware?"

My opinion is a clear and strong *no*. As I said before, allowing it in
is a toe in the door. What's next, adware?

I think I mentioned earlier but the nag is not a new or recent thing
with AntiVir. It existed in version 6 many many months ago also.
Perhaps as far back as a year ago. However, I must say that when I've
used AntiVir, it has been nag-free most of the time.

I personally hate the nag stuff, especially in a so called 'free'
product. Nobody wants to be nagged into purchasing something. I think
it cheapens the product and has no place in 'freeware'. Perhaps the
AntiVir folks have seen the light and stopped it for good, hard to say.

I guess it's a tough call but perhaps it ought to be excluded from the
list, as it's not 'pure' freeware. Shame too, since it is otherwise a
very good piece of software and does a great job. I am using it now.

There is a workaround for it if it does resurface. If you're running
Win2k or XP and an NTFS file system (most of us are), then you simply
set the file 'avnotify.exe' security properties to deny execution. No
more nags.. easy to do, but one shouldn't have to do this in a freeware
product.
 
R

Roger Johansson

I totally agree.

There seems to be two sides on this issue, pragmatism versus formalism,
which has split this group over and over again, year after year.

We could have two web sites, and two point persons, one for the
pragmatists and one for the formalists, thereby giving both groups what
they want. We use the same newsgroup but define "freeware" in different
ways, which allows us to cooperate in many ways, but have different
policies on respective web site.

We had that situation recently, but the more rigid policy group and
their web site hasn't been updated for some time.

Maybe that would be the result the next time too, resulting in a
stepwise movement towards less formality and closer to the wishes of
the less articulated and less aggressive group. If the policy refuses
to bend it can be replaced instead.

Development through competition rather than by revision and complicated
discussions. The people would vote with their feet instead of by
writing very precise and lawyer-like documents. That could suit a lot
of people who don't have the aggressive energy needed to influence the
policy in this hard cultural climate.

The name of the newsgroup is "freeware", and that word obviously means
different things to different people.

The point person for the less rigid web site would have an easier job
than the formalist point person, as he/she would have much less rules
to keep track of and more relaxed people to represent.
 
J

John Corliss

Kerodo said:
I think I mentioned earlier but the nag is not a new or recent thing
with AntiVir. It existed in version 6 many many months ago also.

I think it simply may have slipped by? Frankly though, I didn't vote for
Pricelessware this year, so I don't know.
Perhaps as far back as a year ago. However, I must say that when I've
used AntiVir, it has been nag-free most of the time.

I personally hate the nag stuff, especially in a so called 'free'
product. Nobody wants to be nagged into purchasing something. I think
it cheapens the product and has no place in 'freeware'. Perhaps the
AntiVir folks have seen the light and stopped it for good, hard to say.

Maybe it's time for Antivir to get an email alerting them to the fact
that there is discussion in this group about removing them from the
Pricelessware list and that Nonags has been contacted about the problem.
I guess it's a tough call but perhaps it ought to be excluded from the
list, as it's not 'pure' freeware. Shame too, since it is otherwise a
very good piece of software and does a great job. I am using it now.

There is a workaround for it if it does resurface. If you're running
Win2k or XP and an NTFS file system (most of us are), then you simply
set the file 'avnotify.exe' security properties to deny execution. No
more nags.. easy to do, but one shouldn't have to do this in a freeware
product.

Kerodo, I can't find that setting. I'm using XP Home with SP2 and have
administrator "privileges". Am I missing something or are you referring
to XP Pro?

--
Regards from John Corliss
I don't reply to trolls like Andy Mabbett, Doc (who uses sock puppets)
or Roger Johansson, for instance. No adware, cdware, commercial
software, crippleware, demoware, nagware, PROmotionware, shareware,
spyware, time-limited software, trialware, viruses or warez for me, please.
 
B

bambam

I just installed PowerDesk v. 6.0.1.3, and it doesn't appear to fit
the current a.c.f definition of nagware. There's no popup, and the
definition requires one. PowerDesk instead nags with an
always-visible bar along the bottom of its window, "Click here for
more about: PowerDesk Pro 6". The color of the bar changes each
time the program is used, and there's a new blurb such as "View over
150 file formats".

I certainly consider it nagware, but since it doesn't match the
group's definition, the one which was in place for the PL2006
process, I'll withdraw my suggestion that it should be removed.

So in your testing and according to the ACF Ware Glossary the current
version of PowerDesk is not nagware?
I use ver 5.0.1.2 of PowerDesk and it is nagware according to the ACF Ware
Glossary.
So now we have the unusual situation were we vote to throw out the version
that is not nagware. While we let the version that was nagware stay on the
list for 4 or 5 years?
I did see, after a quick search, that you and Omega tried to point out the
fact that PowerDesk was nagware a couple of years ago. The arguement seemed
very well put, and yet here we are.
I'm confused. :(
 
J

JP Loken

På Thu, 16 Mar 2006 03:43:13 +0100, skrev Susan Bugher
I see a post from Kerodo that says the behavior of AntiVir has changed
recently. IMO it would be helpful to have a better handle on the
behavior of both these apps. IOW - let's let this thread ride for a day
or two to give people a chance to comment - then make a decision on the
next step.

Susan

I've been using AntiVir regularly for some years.
The nagscreen disappeared approximately two-three weeks ago, I think, in
connection with a major update.

In my opinion, AntiVir should be withdrawn from the voting process because
*it's not nagware*.

The app's system requirements are very modest. AntiVir is, therefore,
particularly valuable for those of us who are using aging computers.
 
S

Susan Bugher

JP said:
I've been using AntiVir regularly for some years.
The nagscreen disappeared approximately two-three weeks ago, I think,
in connection with a major update.

In my opinion, AntiVir should be withdrawn from the voting process
because *it's not nagware*.

Is that guaranteed in the EULA? If not we should judge the program on
its performance to date. Apps that nag intermittently are Nagware.

It did nag you in the past. . .
It's not nagging you ATM. . .
ISTM it's likely to nag you in the future. . .

Susan
--
Posted to alt.comp.freeware
Search alt.comp.freeware (or read it online):
http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?q=+group:alt.comp.freeware
Pricelessware & ACF: http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
Pricelessware: http://www.pricelessware.org (not maintained)
 
J

JP Loken

På Sat, 18 Mar 2006 18:10:59 +0100, skrev Susan Bugher
JP Loken wrote:

Is that guaranteed in the EULA? If not we should judge the program on
its performance to date. Apps that nag intermittently are Nagware.

Checked the EULA. No mention of it. :-(

I see your point.

I'm helping my folks who are on a budget to find ways to keep their old
computers running satisfactorily in a modern way.
AntiVir is an important app in this respect because it's so low on
resources compared to other AVs. That's why I want it to stay in
Pricelesswarehome for others to find.

I hope everybody who is sharing my opinion takes time to cast their vote.
:~)
 
C

Craig

JP said:
I'm helping my folks who are on a budget to find ways to keep their old
computers running satisfactorily in a modern way.

JP;

Keep an eye on clamwin (http://www.clamwin.com/). Free, open-source
anti virus. Current versions integrate w/Outlook for on-open email &
attachment scanning.

It may not be as polished or automatic as antivir yet but, it should be
soon enough.

hth,
-Craig
 
?

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=

So in your testing and according to the ACF Ware Glossary the
current version of PowerDesk is not nagware?

Well, the definition calls for a popup window the user must click to
get rid of. PowerDesk's nag is displayed in the program's main window
and can't be gotten rid of.
I use ver 5.0.1.2 of PowerDesk and it is nagware according to the
ACF Ware Glossary.
So now we have the unusual situation were we vote to throw out the
version that is not nagware. While we let the version that was
nagware stay on the list for 4 or 5 years?
I did see, after a quick search, that you and Omega tried to point
out the fact that PowerDesk was nagware a couple of years ago. The
arguement seemed very well put, and yet here we are.
I'm confused. :(

Whether folks call PowerDesk adware or nagware, its suitability for the
PL has been questioned from the start. Here's a post from SoS from
2000:

<http://groups.google.com/group/alt.comp.freeware/msg/09cc7b8a5ccf5905>

AFAIR, the rule against nagware on the list was explicity added a
couple of years ago when it was proposed and no one objected. I guess
it should have occurred to one of us to bring up PowerDesk at that
point, but I guess none of us did that.
 
A

Aaron

You're ignoring the second half of the Pricelessware selection process
- the part where people who are *against* the inclusion of a
particular program voice their objections. Programs on the
Pricelessware List must be *acceptable* to most newsgroup
participants.

And none of them did *during* the process if we want to be all strict
about it.
 
A

Aaron

Never in the history of the PL have votes been the only thing that
matters in the selection process.

'The history of PL' is basically one based on the whims of the maintainer
of PL who makes up the rules as needed, decides what to do votes for etc.
(Note: I have no problems at all with this). Let's not pretend that PL is
some standard unchanging tradition shall we? Better yet, it was always
one based on flexibility.

It is only in the recent years that we started all this nonsense about
voting ware types, voting definitions of ware types, voting about votings
etc.

As pointed out, selected nagware and other 'unacceptable stuff' have
always being accepted in the past. Why not now? Because we have better
rules now to play with?

If you can't see how the rules are getting more and more complicated,
like some sort of game , I pity you.
You seem to be advocating
throwing out all PL rules on the grounds that they are part of some
ridiculous, obsessive game for losers and lawyers. I guess that's
fair game for discussion when the procedures are reviewed again.

Which leads to more rules and games. Remember the threads about votes
about votings?
But don't you think the procedures that have been in place for a
long time for the 2006 PL should still be used for questions about
the 2006 list?

First off, it is only the select few who like playing these games. And
even people like you, apparantly don't pay enough attention during the
voting process to object!

For people who don't care, why should they? Antivir was on the list for
ages. As pointed out nagware was on PL for years.

People, including you, had plenty of time to object
to the use of definitions or to the list of software types to be
excluded throughout most of 2005.

Ditto to the same people who are now objecting about Antivir, why didn't
they object then? :)

The funny thing about useless definitional word games, no one cares
execept for a select few, and as shown in this thread, even these people
who are making noise don't care much either.
 
J

jacaranda

So in your testing and according to the ACF Ware Glossary the current
version of PowerDesk is not nagware?
I use ver 5.0.1.2 of PowerDesk and it is nagware according to the ACF
Ware Glossary.
So now we have the unusual situation were we vote to throw out the
version that is not nagware. While we let the version that was nagware
stay on the list for 4 or 5 years?
I did see, after a quick search, that you and Omega tried to point out
the fact that PowerDesk was nagware a couple of years ago. The
arguement seemed very well put, and yet here we are.
I'm confused. :(

I'm confused too. I voted for 5.0.1.2 on the current ballot since it only
nags on my computer about once a year - hardly worth calling nagware. I
was under the impression Version 6 nagged more often, and thus was truly
nagware. Now we're saying it's not. I wonder if people actually know what
they are voting on, hehe.
 
A

Aaron

Some of us do care. I certainly didn't know what it did until
reading this thread.

Well because you don't use the software that's why you 'care'.
I agree completely. But that has no bearing on whether or not
nagware should be on the PL. When Trillian was nagware, I used and
liked it, but because it was nagware, I was against it being on the
PL. There's a lot of software that people use and like which
doesn't belong on the PL.

Q, tell me, if you find Trillian( which was nagware) useful, why isn't it
pricelessware in your opinion?

Doesn't that presuppose you have some fixed definitional idea about what
pricelessware is?

What "belongs on PL"? Can you point to me some standard unchanging
definition of PL , except the surface meaning?

It's funny how you ask people to vote on what types of ware is allowed on
PL, so does the definition of PL change year after year? Are you as an
indidvual bound by what the group decides is pricelessware?

If a change occur, do these changes have retrospective effect?

The point is since we are voting on ware types acceptable to PL, people
who like and trust Antivir, could easily start voting nagware in the next
time.

Heck they could even do it for adware, or change the definition...

I don't see why anyone would avoid calling it nagware just because
s/he likes and uses it, but perhaps that is indeed what is
happening.

Definitely it is happening. People who say they didn't see nagware until
recently (most probably blocked using various methods the v7 one was
better against these methods).

IMO, all liteware is crippleware. I use and like some of that too.

And yet you are overruled by the 'group' who was desperate for some
loophole because some software was just too useful and willing to put up
with the lack of certain features. That's right the word is "useful".

Too bad.

I agree that calling it liteware is a bit weird, though that term
has been used by the folks marketing it for a long time. But it's
not as weird as refusing to call apps with popup nags nagware.

We are playing definitional games here Q, and worse yet, the definitions
of nagware in pricelessware make it trival to dance around if necessary.
Pretty soon we will need lawyers to draft this stuff.

Care to tell me why Hoverdesk isn't nagware *by definition of PL* ? :)

The group's definitions have been built into the PL procedures for
some time now. You really think they should be taken out of it?

I'm proposing a better way to 'play game'.

Voting on ware types is too abstract. A lot of software don't fall into
them anyway. And there's an extra step trying to pigeonhole stuff into
liteware/crippleware/registerware, then checking to see if it is allowed
on PL.

Let's cut out the middleman, and just vote on properties that are
disallowed.

We will still be playing the game, but much more efficiently.

Currently we do this.

A : XYZ is <disallowed ware type>
B : No it isn't because if you check the rules.....
A : Oh right , it isn't because it doesn't fit the definition, but it
sure *feels* like <disallowed ware type> to me but okay it's not by
definition of PL 2006.

I hope people are voting on ware types based by reading the definitions,
not just having their own ideas about what it is. And thinking "nagware
sounds negative, so I'm voting no, then turning around and voting for
Antivir."

I suspect this is the case in fact at least the way you acted with
Hoverdesk seems to show some evidence of that.

Not everyone agrees about the types you mention. When Opera was
adware, there were folks who liked and used it. Quite a few of them
wanted it on the PL, but it was always excluded because the group's
concensus was that adware shouldn't be on the PL.

Exactly my point. There was support for Opera, which was useful enough to
get people wanting to nominate it, but for most part they failed because
resistance was too great, thanks to the word "Adware".

Never in the history of PL, have we ever had anything tagged as adware,
that is/was the kiss of death no matter how popular though arguably some
accepted entries evaded it narrowly by playing language games.

Nagware however apparantly isn't in that situation ,how could it, despite
it being tagged as so in the past, People just looked the other way.

This shows the loathing for adware (much stronger nowadays) will always
remain, so I don't forsee JC's doomsday scenario of adware becoming
accepted.


If adware had
been allowed on the PL, they could easily have mustered enough votes
for Opera.

I doubt it. The specter of "adware" alone, would have lead to far more
objections then in this thread.

The current situation with nagware is similar, but
despite the group's concensus against putting nagware on the PL,
it's been voted onto the list.

The 'group's concern' didn't seem to make a difference in all the years
Antivir and other nagware has being included.

All the maintainers who tagged "nagware" on their lists who by definition
are the ultimate stickers and arbiters of rules, didn't care either.

So tell me again "the group" is very concerned. :)
 
A

Aaron

There seems to be two sides on this issue, pragmatism versus formalism,
which has split this group over and over again, year after year.

Indeed. The "formalist" also tend to prefer a very strict definition of
freeware, but neverthless the strictest definition of freeware would
never fly, so they tend to give up some battles as lost , or try to
convince themselves that 'liteware' is really just freeware to reduce
cognitive dissonance. :)

We could have two web sites, and two point persons, one for the
pragmatists and one for the formalists, thereby giving both groups what
they want. We use the same newsgroup but define "freeware" in different
ways, which allows us to cooperate in many ways, but have different
policies on respective web site.

It's an interesting idea, but both sides would argue that they are the
'true pricelessware' site wouldn't they?
Development through competition rather than by revision and complicated
discussions. The people would vote with their feet instead of by
writing very precise and lawyer-like documents. That could suit a lot
of people who don't have the aggressive energy needed to influence the
policy in this hard cultural climate.

The vocal minority makes the mistake of thinking because they make the
most noise, they represent the group. That everyone spends time and
energy keeping track of the 'rules of the game' which change every year.

But clearly the voting patterns which create so many contradictions show
the majority don't agree and are driven by pragamtic concerns. To think
otherwise is foolish.

That's said the differences are not that great, for example there is
enough fear and hatred of Adware that even the highly popular Opera back
in her day as adware was blocked.

The name of the newsgroup is "freeware", and that word obviously means
different things to different people.

The point person for the less rigid web site would have an easier job
than the formalist point person, as he/she would have much less rules
to keep track of and more relaxed people to represent.

Unfortunately most likely, the two websites would be pretty similiar I
expect, except for mabye a couple of bordertime entries. I doubt it would
be worth the effort.
 
A

Aaron

The question now is how many people favor removal of these apps. If
this course of action is favored by a significant number of newsgroup
participants the apps will be removed.

So basically if enough 'keep' votes are cast, it stays in?

If so nagware is acceptable simply if enough people vote for it?

How about shareware? :)
 

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