Acf Wiki - ideas please

[Susan Bugher]

Susan Bugher wrote on 20-8-2004 :


Please correct me when I am wrong, but do we (ACF) really need this?
Don't we already have a discussion group (ACFD)?

I must say that I'm happy with all kind of initiatives concerning ACF,
but aren't we going a little too far when we discuss all kind of issues
in other places instead of ACF?

My guess is that few people in the NG would *want* to use the wiki for
discussion. The wiki would let *all* participants in the newsgroup
create acf related web pages easily. For instance, I'd like to see
*more* reviews of freeware programs - more reviews might be written and
posted if they could also be added to an acf web page for future reference.

When somebody likes to "lauch" something, why don't we make some kind of
a 'charter' that could be helpfull for 'new' visitors to ACF. Just a
message, repeated on a weekly basis, about the FAQ (and the anti-FAQ),
about the Pricelesswaresites, about ACFD and ACFG, about the unmoderated
status of these groups, about <snipping>-rules, (maybe about my great
site) and so on.

Good idea - especially the "Henk's great site" part.

I *think* Mark might be able to automatically post a such a page to ACF
once a week - if I understood his comment in another thread. IOW - we
might be able to create and revise a 'charter' for new visitors using
the wiki and the latest revised charter would be automatically posted to
the newsgroup each week.

Susan

 

[Henk de Jong]

Did you have in mind a weekly posting under the control of one person, or
under collaborative control?

I'm thinking of a weekly-based posting by a regular of this group. The
contents of that charter is to be discussed and approved by this group.
I have no intentions to start this. Maybe somebody in the US or UK
could do this (at least somebody who has the English language as
his/her native language). When somebody likes to have something changed
in the charter, he can ask for this in the group, after which a
discussion will follow.

If you meant something written collaboratively, then my prior suggestion of
having a wiki page called WeeklyPosting might be to your liking. I could
automate it so that the contents of just that page are posted to the
newsgroup every week.

There are pros and cons of making a weekly posting under the control of one
person as opposed to a collaboratively edited posting -- I've leave the
merits and demerits as an exercise for the reader.

First of all, I like the things that you do for ACF very much. I'm very
graceful for all the summaries you post and for your initiative for a
wiki. The only thing that worries me is that there will be another
place, besides ACF, where people can discuss or give their opinion
about freeware. I think that we have to keep in mind that there are
still a lot of visitors of ACF that don't have a DSL or cable
connection to the internet. Those folks still use a (slow) modem and
maybe the collection of the headers and/or articles of ACF is a
'one-stop' action for them. Having an other place where people can read
about freeware, can give them a lot (?) of more telephone-costs, and
maybe they'll avoid that, and when the messages in here decrease in
favor of the messages in the wiki, we might loose them.

I link to you to from my Freeware page. To my mind, it's the single-most
logical place for me to point to, because it contains a list of other
freeware websites. I generally go the the "5 star" section.

Yes, I have noticed that, and many, many thanks for that.

With kind regards,

--
Henk de Jong
The Netherlands
(e-mail address removed) (Remove _NO_SPAM_)
'Links to Freeware'
http://www.linkstofreeware.nl/
http://www.linkstofreeware.vze.com/
http://home.hccnet.nl/hmdejong/

 

[Henk de Jong]

Susan Bugher wrote on 21-8-2004 :

My guess is that few people in the NG would *want* to use the wiki for
discussion. The wiki would let *all* participants in the newsgroup create
acf related web pages easily. For instance, I'd like to see *more* reviews of
freeware programs - more reviews might be written and posted if they could
also be added to an acf web page for future reference.

Susan, that is exactly what I am afraid about. Please read my answer to
Mark concerning this.

Good idea - especially the "Henk's great site" part.

I *think* Mark might be able to automatically post a such a page to ACF once
a week - if I understood his comment in another thread. IOW - we might be
able to create and revise a 'charter' for new visitors using the wiki and the
latest revised charter would be automatically posted to the newsgroup each
week.

I don't think that the charter has to be revised on a frequent basis.
Once we have determined this, it can be valid for quit a while, unless
a link changes of course, or as a result of a discussion for changing
the charter. But when we have a good one with full agreement of
everybody, my guess would be that there is not much more discussion
needed anymore.

With kind regards,

--
Henk de Jong
The Netherlands
(e-mail address removed) (Remove _NO_SPAM_)
'Links to Freeware'
http://www.linkstofreeware.nl/
http://www.linkstofreeware.vze.com/
http://home.hccnet.nl/hmdejong/

 

[Mark Carter]

When somebody likes to "lauch" something, why don't we make some kind

Thanks Dick, but, looking back to some old postings, I'm afraid we'll be
the only ones that like that idea.

I think that the idea also has merit.

Let me summarise what I believe is the overall thinking so far:

* the wiki should probably be put on the back burner. When/if its
popularity becomes more established, or a clear purpose for it exists,
maybe then we could think about tarting it up and putting it on the
Pricelessware site.

* a charter appears to be a good idea. There are at least 3 supporters,
and no dissenters. The question remains as to specifics of editorial
control and the mechanics of posting.

 

[Mark Carter]

Henk de Jong wrote:
| Don't we already have a discussion group (ACFD)?
....
| but aren't we going a little too far when we discuss all kind of
| issues in other places instead of ACF?

Susan Bugher wrote:
| My guess is that few people in the NG would *want* to use the wiki for
| discussion. The wiki would let *all* participants in the newsgroup
| create acf related web pages easily. For instance, I'd like to see
| *more* reviews of freeware programs - more reviews might be written and
| posted if they could also be added to an acf web page for future
reference.

Susan has hit the nail on the head. The point is that the wiki is not
really about discussion, but about content. Think "collaborative web site".


Henk wrote:
| a message, repeated on a weekly basis, about the FAQ (and the
| anti-FAQ), about
....

Susan wrote:
| I *think* Mark might be able to automatically post a such a page to ACF
| once a week - if I understood his comment in another thread. IOW - we
| might be able to create and revise a 'charter' for new visitors using
| the wiki and the latest revised charter would be automatically posted to
| the newsgroup each week.

That's what I had in mind. I could easily create an automated script
which posts the contents of the page WeeklyPosting (or some other name,
if you prefer) to ACF. This is particularly convenient for me, because
the page is stored as plain text, even though the page is displayed in
html. It's also administration-free. The page just gets posted every
week. If people feel they need to tweak the contents, they can.

 

[Mark Carter]

I'm thinking of a weekly-based posting by a regular of this group. The
contents of that charter is to be discussed and approved by this group.

Perhaps "charter" isn't the best way to describe it. A charter is "a
document issued by an authority ... creating a public ... corporation,
.... and defining its privileges and purposes."

I think you're basically referring to a FAQ. Maybe we could call it a
RoadMap to Alt.Comp.Freeware.

I have no intentions to start this. Maybe somebody in the US or UK could
do this (at least somebody who has the English language as his/her
native language). When somebody likes to have something changed in the
charter, he can ask for this in the group, after which a discussion will
follow.

A not unreasonable suggestion. I'd be willing to draft an inital copy,
and run it up the flag-post and see what salutes it.

My only fear is that, judging by other threads, open discussions tend to
degenerate into mudfights. A horse designed by a committee gives off
more heat than light, or something.

 

[Derald]

I don't know what a "wiki" is but I infer from the tenor of your post
that it involves firing up a web browser and doing something on the WWW
pertaining to reading this newsgroup and that "summaries" of that
activity would then actually (redundantly and superflously?) be _posted_
to the newsgroup? What's the point? Just exactly how much more
nonsensical can one possibly be? Isn't enough that you twits have spent
months quibbling and nattering on about your hobbyist web sites as if
they really were issues, fer chrissake?

I'm sorry but the inmates seem to have taken over the asylum. So long
and thanks for all of the fish.

 

[=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=]

My guess is that few people in the NG would *want* to use the wiki
for discussion.

I hope not. IME wikis which are used for back-and-forth discussion,
with replies being tacked onto the bottoms of pages, quickly become
pretty annoying to read.

The wiki would let *all* participants in the newsgroup create acf
related web pages easily. For instance, I'd like to see *more*
reviews of freeware programs - more reviews might be written and
posted if they could also be added to an acf web page for future
reference.

I think that would be a great way to start. People interested in
moving the wiki forward should just start creating pages for the
apps they know well, whether those pages are reviews or overviews or
whatever. After reading a bit about how wikis work, of course.
I'll try to do a few as I get time, though I make no promises.

It's not difficult to edit them; in fact it's dead simple. I just
edited <http://www.markcarter.me.uk/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?AcfWiki> so that
it now mentions pwh.org in addition to pw.org. It took about 10
seconds, most of which was spent making sure I didn't typo the url.

 

[H.M.A. (Dick) Hazeleger]

My guess is that few people in the NG would want to use the wiki for
discussion. The wiki would let all participants in the newsgroup
create acf related web pages easily. For instance, I'd like to see
more reviews of freeware programs - more reviews might be written and
posted if they could also be added to an acf web page for future
reference.


Good idea - especially the "Henk's great site" part.

I think Mark might be able to automatically post a such a page to ACF
once a week - if I understood his comment in another thread. IOW - we
might be able to create and revise a 'charter' for new visitors using
the wiki and the latest revised charter would be automatically posted
to the newsgroup each week.

Susan

Hi Susan, Henk, Mark, <Q> and others reading this thread.

One of the things which really flabbergasted me, was the amount of
energy, posts and bandwith used just to discuss "discussions". I always
thought that we discussed, supported FREEWARE here, but it seems that
ACF has turned into a discussion group of a different kind.

Susan, you want to see more reviews? I support that idea, but why not
here, why in yet a different place.... unless it would be to attract
people to a site, I don't see any need for that. ACF is the place to
put a review, a hint, and address problems related to freeware, not a
WiKi. If it would come to the worst then ACFD would be the place, but
since that NG isn't listed by every provider, we can't rely on that...
which leaves us with ACF.

With all due respect (cordially meant) for both webmasters of the
PW-sites; I think we now should focus back on the roots of this NG:
Freeware! As a service to both, regulars and newcomers, I fullheartedly
support Henk's original idea of a "charter" (or under which ever name
it would be posted).

Regards to all,
Dick

 

[Henk de Jong]

Hi Susan, Henk, Mark, <Q> and others reading this thread.

One of the things which really flabbergasted me, was the amount of
energy, posts and bandwith used just to discuss "discussions". I always
thought that we discussed, supported FREEWARE here, but it seems that
ACF has turned into a discussion group of a different kind.

Susan, you want to see more reviews? I support that idea, but why not
here, why in yet a different place.... unless it would be to attract
people to a site, I don't see any need for that. ACF is the place to
put a review, a hint, and address problems related to freeware, not a
WiKi. If it would come to the worst then ACFD would be the place, but
since that NG isn't listed by every provider, we can't rely on that...
which leaves us with ACF.

With all due respect (cordially meant) for both webmasters of the
PW-sites; I think we now should focus back on the roots of this NG:
Freeware! As a service to both, regulars and newcomers, I fullheartedly
support Henk's original idea of a "charter" (or under which ever name
it would be posted).

Regards to all,
Dick

Hi Dick,

Thanks for this. This is exactly what I ment to say.

With kind regards,

--
Henk de Jong
The Netherlands
(e-mail address removed) (Remove _NO_SPAM_)
'Links to Freeware'
http://www.linkstofreeware.nl/
http://www.linkstofreeware.vze.com/
http://home.hccnet.nl/hmdejong/

 

[Susan Bugher]

Perhaps "charter" isn't the best way to describe it. A charter is "a
document issued by an authority ... creating a public ... corporation,
... and defining its privileges and purposes."

I think you're basically referring to a FAQ. Maybe we could call it a
RoadMap to Alt.Comp.Freeware.


A not unreasonable suggestion. I'd be willing to draft an inital copy,
and run it up the flag-post and see what salutes it.

I think most people are in favor of the idea - just not enthusiastic
enough to expend any effort to implement it. You are the *first*
volunteer - *please* have at it.

I started posting ACF links on a weekly basis just a couple of weeks
ago. I think links are part of the proposed guide. It seems to me the
links posts should continue while you work on the draft. Would you be
willing to automate that process? When your draft has been reviewed more
information can be added.

suggested interim post:

Subject: alt.comp.freeware information

Pricelessware:
http://www.pricelessware.org

Pricelessware Home:
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org

acf Posting Tips:
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/acf/Posting.php

Ware Glossary:
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/acf/WareGlossary.php

alt.comp.freeware FAQ:
http://clients.net2000.com.au/~johnf/faq.html


Susan

 

[Mark Carter]

I think most people are in favor of the idea - just not enthusiastic

enough to expend any effort to implement it.

I started posting ACF links on a weekly basis just a couple of weeks
ago. I think links are part of the proposed guide. It seems to me the
links posts should continue while you work on the draft. Would you be
willing to automate that process? When your draft has been reviewed more
information can be added.

OK, to get us at least pointed in the right direction: I'll post the
message below on a weekly basis, thereby eliminating the need for you to
do it manually.

I'll also work on a draft replacement for that message, for approval by
this list. It will be "interesting" to see how the approval process
works. There are people on this group who are even opposed to discussing
these matters.

But anyways. At least a start has been decided.

 

[Mark Carter]

OK, to get us at least pointed in the right direction: I'll post the
message below [omited] on a weekly basis, thereby eliminating the need for you to
do it manually. ....
But anyways. At least a start has been decided.

Implemented.

I hope to perform the first automated posting on Monday.

 

[Susan Bugher]

Susan, you want to see more reviews? I support that idea, but why not
here, why in yet a different place....

See above - IMO the wiki should *supplement* the NG, not surplant it.

unless it would be to attract

people to a site, I don't see any need for that. ACF is the place to
put a review, a hint, and address problems related to freeware, not a
WiKi. If it would come to the worst then ACFD would be the place, but
since that NG isn't listed by every provider, we can't rely on that...
which leaves us with ACF.

I suggested adding [VP] for valuable post as a way to *retrieve* ACF
posts that are especially helpful.

Nobody thought much of *that* idea. . .

still trying. . .

IMO the wiki could be a useful tool for the newsgroup - we just need to
figure out how best to utilize it.

Susan

 

[Susan Bugher]

OK, to get us at least pointed in the right direction: I'll post the
message below [omited] on a weekly basis, thereby eliminating the need
for you to do it manually.

Implemented.

I hope to perform the first automated posting on Monday.

Thank you.

crossing that off my todo list. . .

Susan

 

[Mark Carter]

I suggested adding [VP] for valuable post as a way to *retrieve* ACF

posts that are especially helpful.

Noted

 

[H.M.A. (Dick) Hazeleger]

See above - IMO the wiki should supplement the NG, not surplant it.

Okay... If that is the intention (not that I see much added value in
it, but alas) then how about putting it on neutral site? Not on PW, or
on PWH I mean..?

unless it would be to attract

people to a site, I don't see any need for that. ACF is the place to
put a review, a hint, and address problems related to freeware, not
a WiKi. If it would come to the worst then ACFD would be the place,
but since that NG isn't listed by every provider, we can't rely on
that... which leaves us with ACF.

I suggested adding [VP] for valuable post as a way to retrieve ACF
posts that are especially helpful.

Nobody thought much of that idea. . .

Perhaps it is a difficult issue? Of course my posts are [VP] p); Henk
says his are, Roger J. will say that his are absolutely [VP]... and
soon we would only have subject lines starting with that. Now, you
could say "OK, that is true, so we would issue a few guidelines for
that", and I would reply: "NO! Not more rules, not more 'guidelines';
this NG, at times is even worse than our present government (.nl)! This
is an "alt." NG on Usenet, not a parlement ".

What I try to say is that I get the strong impression that soon we will
be bound by "rules and regulations" for every aspect of our posting
here, as we are already in RL... Is *that* what we want? Not me, thank
you very much!

still trying. . .

IMO the wiki could be a useful tool for the newsgroup - we just need
to figure out how best to utilize it.

Whatever the other regulars and occassional poster in this NG decide if
reviews are to be put on the WiKi, then the usefulness of this NG will
decrease with every review posted there, just as much as those reviews
should be posted here, so should the reactions on them; now what would
be the added value to the NG for a WiKi if we continue to do so? As
such I think that the usefulness is limited, or not present at all.

In my "limited view of things" the only place to post reviews, and
discuss them (in freedom, without moderation) is here: in ACF, not on a
forum, a WiKi, Chatroom or whatever we could think of.

Regards to all
Dick

 

[H.M.A. (Dick) Hazeleger]

(and >>>> the anti-FAQ), about the Pricelesswaresites, about ACFD and
ACFG, >>>> about the unmoderated status of these groups, about

The >> contents of that charter is to be discussed and approved by
this group.
which >> a discussion will follow.

I think most people are in favor of the idea - just not
enthusiastic enough to expend any effort to implement it. You are the
first volunteer - please have at it.

I started posting ACF links on a weekly basis just a couple of weeks
ago. I think links are part of the proposed guide. It seems to me the
links posts should continue while you work on the draft. Would you be
willing to automate that process? When your draft has been reviewed
more information can be added.

suggested interim post:

Subject: alt.comp.freeware information

Pricelessware:
http://www.pricelessware.org

Pricelessware Home:
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org

acf Posting Tips:
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/acf/Posting.php

Ware Glossary:
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/acf/WareGlossary.php

alt.comp.freeware FAQ:
http://clients.net2000.com.au/~johnf/faq.html

Hi Susan, Mark, Henk and all lurkers in this thread!

Whoa.... Is this a Concorde flying at max. speed, or is it Usenet? I
think that people in other time zones would love to have a chance to
have their saying about it... i.o.w.: Not so fast!

Regards to all
Dick

 

[Susan Bugher]

Hi Susan, Mark, Henk and all lurkers in this thread!

Whoa.... Is this a Concorde flying at max. speed, or is it Usenet? I
think that people in other time zones would love to have a chance to
have their saying about it... i.o.w.: Not so fast!

didn't you just post:

What I try to say is that I get the strong impression that soon we will
be bound by "rules and regulations" for every aspect of our posting
here, as we are already in RL... Is *that* what we want? Not me, thank
you very much!

So *why* are you objecting to this?

*What* are you objecting to?

Posting links?

Preparing a draft proposal for the group to discuss?

Susan

 

[Mark Carter]

suggested interim post:
....

Whoa.... Is this a Concorde flying at max. speed, or is it Usenet? I
think that people in other time zones would love to have a chance to
have their saying about it... i.o.w.: Not so fast!

OK, consider it an "interim message".

I'm seriously beginning to think that democracy doesn't work, and that a
"benevolent dictatorship" is the better way to go. "If you yield to
everyone, then soon you have nothing to yield" - Aesop:
http://tinyurl.com/5u7we

Look at the PL thread (and to some extent, this thread, too). I'm not
singling out anyone in particular here, you understand, but there are
messages like "what we need is another vote", "no we don't need another
vote", "but that's not democratic", yada yada yada.

I'm thinking that probably the best way to go is for everyone just to do
what they want to do, in the hope that it all fits together in some kind
of interesting mosiac. Take Henk's site, for example. He chugs along,
doing what he wants to do, and makes a useful contribution to freeware.
If anyone wants to suggest an improvement, they can. Henk is free to
implement it or ignore it as he chooses. I do pretty much the same thing
with my SOUL listings. It makes life easier for the both of us, because
neither of us feel obliged to follow the will of the group. They're our
own individual projects, we can do what we want.

Please note that it's also not a particularly egomaniacal attitude. I
used to keep a list of my favourite freeware, for example. I found it
difficult to locate sites that offered freeware; chiefly because most
sites like to bung in the word "freeware" so that it gets picked up by
Google. Then I discovered alt.comp.freeware. I found that there were
some genuinely good freeware sites, so I started building a collection
of them. Then I noticed Henk's site, and realised that he was doing a
much better job at it than I was. So I would much rather defer to him.
After all, he's doing all the hard work for me. Great!

So you see, it's possible to work separately and together both at the
same time.