XP Less Secure than 98 for Sharing Files

G

Guest

In a Small office or Home Network used to share files, XP (using Windows Networking) seems Less secure than Win98

In Win98, Passwords can be assigned to Shared resources, Service Broadcasting can be Disabled, and Non-routable NetBEIU protocols are standard. While you can configure NetBEUI with some additional effort, there seems no ability to password protect or turn of service Broadcasts in XP, or to password protect shared file services

Interestingly, XP as a client will work fine with a win98 "Server" which has passwords on shares and has broadcast disabled

XP as a windows network server appears vunerable to any device that gains access to the LAN. Are there ways to overcome these limitations in Windows networking?
 
B

Bruce Chambers

Greetings --

The main limitations you really need to overcome are based upon
your limited experience with, and knowledge of, Microsoft networking.
(Not that Microsoft networking is any where near as secure, by
default, as is NetWare, for example.)

I'm afraid you have it backwards. WinXP, properly configured, is
much more secured than Win9x. However, it should be pointed out that
WinXP is a _client_ operating system, and, as such, is not designed to
provide the full functionality of a server OS, to include more
rigorous security permissions.

Like WinNT and Win2K, WinXP's file security paradigm doesn't rely
on, or allow, the cumbersome method of password protection for
individual applications, files, or folders. Instead, it uses the
superior method of explicitly assigning file/folder permissions to
individual users and/or groups.

HOW TO Create and Configure User Accounts in Windows XP
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;279783

HOW TO Set, View, Change, or Remove File and Folder Permissions
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;q308418

HOW TO Set, View, Change, or Remove Special Permissions for Files and
Folders
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;[LN];Q308419

HOW TO Set the My Documents Folder as Private in Windows XP
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;298399

Of course, if you have WinXP Pro, you can also encrypt the desired
files/folders.

Best Practices for Encrypting File System
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;223316

Oh, and NetBEUI is pretty much a thing of the past, useful _only_
on small peer-to-peer networks that require no Internet access. It's
sole virtue was that it required virtually no networking knowledge,
beyond installing the NIC and selecting the protocol, to implement.


Bruce Chambers

--
Help us help you:




You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on
having both at once. -- RAH
 
L

Lanwench [MVP - Exchange]

Ed said:
In a Small office or Home Network used to share files, XP (using
Windows Networking) seems Less secure than Win98.

Not so - FAT has no security to speak of, and NTFS does...
In Win98, Passwords can be assigned to Shared resources, Service
Broadcasting can be Disabled, and Non-routable NetBEIU protocols are
standard. While you can configure NetBEUI with some additional
effort, there seems no ability to password protect or turn of service
Broadcasts in XP, or to password protect shared file services.

Why would you need NetBEUI? You should be able to use TCP/IP alone. Use a
firewall to protect your network from the Internet. Most if not all of the
hardware appliances also do DHCP as well as NAT - makes setting up computers
a lot easier. Check out NetGear FR114P - my current choice for small
networks.
If you disable NetBIOS over TCP/IP you can stop NetBIOS broadcasts, but
you'll also disable browsing. NetBEUI relies on broadcast anyway, if I
recall correctly (haven't used it in a million years).
If you use NTFS, you can granularly set permissions on shares/folders for
different user accounts. You can disable simple file sharing on XP Pro
(which also supports 10 concurrent connections, not merely 5 as Home does)
and set up all other user accounts/passwords on it, and control who has
access to what, with local groups or accounts, as you wish.
Interestingly, XP as a client will work fine with a win98 "Server"
which has passwords on shares and has broadcast disabled.

XP as a windows network server appears vunerable to any device that
gains access to the LAN. Are there ways to overcome these
limitations in Windows networking?

Who has access to the LAN, and how? If someone gains access to your network
from the Internet (due to no firewall, etc), busting open the password
protection on Win9x/FAT is no big deal. NTFS alone isn't going to save you
there, but no matter what you use, you need a firewall, period.
 
C

Carey Frisch [MVP]

Windows XP Professional has a much more powerful way to control file sharing:

Windows XP Simple File Sharing
http://www.practicallynetworked.com/sharing/xp/filesharing.htm

How to Share Files Using Encrypting File System
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/using/itpro/securing/sharefilesefs.asp

--
Carey Frisch
Microsoft MVP
Windows XP - Shell/User

Be Smart! Protect your PC!
http://www.microsoft.com/security/protect/


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Ed Derz" (e-mail address removed) wrote in message:

| In a Small office or Home Network used to share files, XP (using Windows Networking) seems Less secure than
Win98.
|
| In Win98, Passwords can be assigned to Shared resources, Service Broadcasting can be Disabled, and
Non-routable NetBEIU protocols are standard. While you can configure NetBEUI with some additional effort,
there seems no ability to password protect or turn of service Broadcasts in XP, or to password protect shared
file services.
|
| Interestingly, XP as a client will work fine with a win98 "Server" which has passwords on shares and has
broadcast disabled.
|
| XP as a windows network server appears vunerable to any device that gains access to the LAN. Are there ways
to overcome these limitations in Windows networking?
 
G

Guest

After reading the information contained in the links in your reply (which I appreciate), I think my first problem to overcome is that the security tab is not available on the folder I want to share. I am running XP Home and related articles only explain how to disable "simple file sharing" in XP PRO.
 
C

Carey Frisch [MVP]

How Do I Get the Security tab in Folder Properties?
http://www.dougknox.com/xp/tips/xp_security_tab.htm

[Courtesy of MS-MVP Doug Knox]

Converting FAT32 to NTFS in Windows XP
http://aumha.org/win5/a/ntfscvt.htm

[Courtesy of Alex Nichol, MS-MVP]

--
Carey Frisch
Microsoft MVP
Windows XP - Shell/User

Be Smart! Protect your PC!
http://www.microsoft.com/security/protect/

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


| After reading the information contained in the links in your reply (which I appreciate), I think my first
problem to overcome is that the security tab is not available on the folder I want to share. I am running XP
Home and related articles only explain how to disable "simple file sharing" in XP PRO.
 
G

Guest

Perhaps I was wrong. Perhaps it is simply more difficult

I have now successfully been able to get the security tab to appear and have created an account that I want to have access to my shared folder. On the security tab, Everyone is permitted access. If I deny access to everyone, no one has access, including the user I want to permit access to. I've tried deleting everyone as well. when I give the user I want to permit access to full permissions, he cannot

Is there a simple method to give access to a user/group gaining access via the network?
 
L

Lanwench [MVP - Exchange]

Add the users/groups you wish - including local admin account, system, and
your own login, etc - then remove inheritance & click "copy" settings so it
doesn't lock you out of your car (note - I haven't tried this on a workgroup
computer so I'm not sure if you'll see the local admin account shows up, or
system). Then push the settings down through the subfolders.
 
G

Guest

After all the advice I received (which I appreciate) I have tried numerous experiments in attempting to permit a user on an XP PC to access their files from another PC on the same workgroup

One yould think all you would have to do is create their name and password on the "client". They would login there and have access to files on the server. However..

It does not appear to be possible unless you grant permission on the server to the "Everyone" or "Network" groups. In either of these cases, the the user has the same privledges as a guest

Does anyone have a solution to limit access over a network to an XP shared directory to a single user or group
 
L

Lanwench [MVP - Exchange]

Ed said:
After all the advice I received (which I appreciate) I have tried
numerous experiments in attempting to permit a user on an XP PC to
access their files from another PC on the same workgroup.

One yould think all you would have to do is create their name and
password on the "client". They would login there and have access to
files on the server. However..

If you aren't using a domain, you need to create each account identically on
all computers....with correct/matching passwords.
It does not appear to be possible unless you grant permission on the
server to the "Everyone" or "Network" groups. In either of these
cases, the the user has the same privledges as a guest.

Does anyone have a solution to limit access over a network to an XP
shared directory to a single user or group?

Once the "other" accounts exist on the computer with the share, you can
control access via groups (create them if you like) or accounts.
 
G

Guest

No, I am not using Domains. And I have created the accounts Identically- Name and PSWD

Does it matter that the client is Win98?
 
L

Lanwench [MVP - Exchange]

Ed said:
No, I am not using Domains. And I have created the accounts
Identically- Name and PSWD.
Good...

Does it matter that the client is Win98?

No, shouldn't matter - the local accounts/groups are the thing.

Are you still having problems with this? How did you set up the NTFS
security? I forget now if you said you had XP Pro and disabled simple file
sharing...
 
G

Guest

I am testing file sharing with a "server" running XP Home. Simple File sharing has been disabled. I have access to the same security tab available in XP Pro. The Drive is NTFS

The Client is Win98 configured for XP home networking using the XP wizard supplied on the MS program CD

The User Name and Password are identical on the Server and client. The Password is not blank

I grant the user "full control" on the security tab to a Test directory, and make the directory sharable and updateable on a network (sharing tab) . The user can access it normally on the XP server. They can see the folder, but not open it on the 98 client (access denied). I have tried creating the accounts several times, using uppercase just in case, etc. the results are the same. The only way the user can use the directory on the 98 PC is if I Add "Everyone" or "network"groups to the security tab on the XP machine. However, with these groups added, anyone on the network can access the directory. I've also tried adding "authenticted users" and "users" groups to see if they had any effect on network access and they don't

I'm pretty close to giving up and recommending that 98 be the server in this environment. The downside in this case is the XP machine has 3x the horsepower of the 98 box. The upside is that 98 will require Password authentication from 98 or XP clients perventing "guest" access

I do appreciate your help.
 
C

Carey Frisch [MVP]

Windows XP in a Domain Environment
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/home/evaluation/overviews/xpindomain.asp

Windows XP Comparison Guide
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/howtobuy/choosing2.asp

--
Carey Frisch
Microsoft MVP
Windows XP - Shell/User

Be Smart! Protect your PC!
http://www.microsoft.com/security/protect/

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


|I am testing file sharing with a "server" running XP Home. Simple File sharing has been disabled. I have
access to the same security tab available in XP Pro. The Drive is NTFS.
|
| The Client is Win98 configured for XP home networking using the XP wizard supplied on the MS program CD.
|
| The User Name and Password are identical on the Server and client. The Password is not blank.
|
| I grant the user "full control" on the security tab to a Test directory, and make the directory sharable and
updateable on a network (sharing tab) . The user can access it normally on the XP server. They can see the
folder, but not open it on the 98 client (access denied). I have tried creating the accounts several times,
using uppercase just in case, etc. the results are the same. The only way the user can use the directory on
the 98 PC is if I Add "Everyone" or "network"groups to the security tab on the XP machine. However, with
these groups added, anyone on the network can access the directory. I've also tried adding "authenticted
users" and "users" groups to see if they had any effect on network access and they don't.
|
| I'm pretty close to giving up and recommending that 98 be the server in this environment. The downside in
this case is the XP machine has 3x the horsepower of the 98 box. The upside is that 98 will require Password
authentication from 98 or XP clients perventing "guest" access.
|
| I do appreciate your help.
 
G

Guest

I've read your Links. I'm not sure what applies here since (to my knowledge) I'm not using Domains. Are you suggesting that XP Home cannot be used to share files with 98 users in a secured envionment and that XP PRO can via Domains? If so, what is involved in establishing "Domains". (I thought a separate server/license was required)
 
C

cquirke (MVP Win9x)

On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 11:02:38 -0600, "Bruce Chambers"

The long and the short of it is that WinXP can't do what the older OSs
can do, and force you to use potentially stronger alternative
approaches that you may have good reason to avoid.
The main limitations you really need to overcome are based upon
your limited experience with, and knowledge of, Microsoft networking.
I'm afraid you have it backwards. WinXP, properly configured, is
much more secured than Win9x. However, it should be pointed out that
WinXP is a _client_ operating system, and, as such, is not designed to
provide the full functionality of a server OS, to include more
rigorous security permissions.
Like WinNT and Win2K, WinXP's file security paradigm doesn't rely
on, or allow, the cumbersome method of password protection for
individual applications, files, or folders. Instead, it uses the
superior method of explicitly assigning file/folder permissions to
individual users and/or groups.

Oh, XP can be as cumbersome as hell. Ever tried chasing up settings
across multiple user accounts, or had to go deep into NTFS's per-file
permissions to fiddle with those assigned to each file? Hm.
HOW TO Create and Configure User Accounts in Windows XP
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;279783

Note that anything other than full admin rights in XP Home will mean
you lose the ability to control a number of settings in that account,
such as "show file name extensions" etc. Swap one risk for another.
HOW TO Set, View, Change, or Remove File and Folder Permissions
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;q308418

Requires NTFS, which forces another trade-off; no maintenance OS,
can't formally scan for malware, limited data recovery.
HOW TO Set, View, Change, or Remove Special Permissions for Files and
Folders
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;[LN];Q308419
HOW TO Set the My Documents Folder as Private in Windows XP
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;298399
Of course, if you have WinXP Pro, you can also encrypt the desired
files/folders.
Oh, and NetBEUI is pretty much a thing of the past, useful _only_
on small peer-to-peer networks that require no Internet access. It's
sole virtue was that it required virtually no networking knowledge,
beyond installing the NIC and selecting the protocol, to implement.

No, it's main advantage was that it was not routable, did not carry a
wad of TCP/IP services, and could be used independently of TCP/IP.

That meant PCs could freely operate File and Print Sharing on a LAN
(via NetBEUI) while running firewall software with default settings to
manage TCP/IP risks. It meant that File and Print Sharing could be
kept off TCP/IP entirely, so even if badly configured, the Internet
would have no F&PS access unless a beach-head was established.

As it is, adding TCP/IP-only XP to an existing Win9x LAN can weaken
the security of that LAN, by forcing those PCs to use TCP/IP and thus
requiring them to open ports in the firewalls (if you know how to do
that and/or your firewall supports it) or running with no firewall.

XP may be more secure in its own world, as long as you do everything
its way, and turn a blind eye to the additional risks it opens up.

But when required to operate in the same way as existing Win9x clients
on a peer-to-peer LAN, it has limitations:
- poor support for anything other than TCP/IP
- can't password-block shares
- dangerous hidden "admin" shares exposing the startup axis
- limit of 5, not 10, incomming connects

It's a case of "be reasonable, do it my way" - and depending on your
requirements and limitations, the result may be far riskier.


-------------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
Running Windows-based av to kill active malware is like striking
a match to see if what you are standing in is water or petrol.
 
L

Lanwench [MVP - Exchange]

Inline, submitted respectfully :)
Oh, XP can be as cumbersome as hell. Ever tried chasing up settings
across multiple user accounts, or had to go deep into NTFS's per-file
permissions to fiddle with those assigned to each file? Hm.

There is indeed a learning curve here, but I just make sure I set up my
folders & shares such that I don't have to bother with individual
subfolder/file permissions. And I use groups, not users, to assign
permissions.

Note that anything other than full admin rights in XP Home will mean
you lose the ability to control a number of settings in that account,
such as "show file name extensions" etc. Swap one risk for another.

No, you can change your display settings in Folder Options without local
admin rights...
Requires NTFS, which forces another trade-off; no maintenance OS,
can't formally scan for malware, limited data recovery.

"maintenance OS" = ? And re malware - you can use any of the major tools
I've used for spyware scanning on NTFS volumes - the software doesn't care.
Re data recovery - NTFS is less prone to errors/fragmentation than FAT, by a
long shot - and a) everyone needs to make regular backups regardless of
format and b) there's always NTFSDOS if needed

No, it's main advantage was that it was not routable, did not carry a
wad of TCP/IP services, and could be used independently of TCP/IP.

That meant PCs could freely operate File and Print Sharing on a LAN
(via NetBEUI) while running firewall software with default settings to
manage TCP/IP risks. It meant that File and Print Sharing could be
kept off TCP/IP entirely, so even if badly configured, the Internet
would have no F&PS access unless a beach-head was established.

As it is, adding TCP/IP-only XP to an existing Win9x LAN can weaken
the security of that LAN, by forcing those PCs to use TCP/IP and thus
requiring them to open ports in the firewalls (if you know how to do
that and/or your firewall supports it) or running with no firewall.

If you have TCP/IP loaded at all, regardless of NetBEUI, and have Internet
access, you need a perimeter firewall, period. What needs to be opened
(inbound) in a firewall for basic Internet connectivity? Nothing....and
relying on individual software firewalls as your sole line of defense
against the Internet is silly on a network.
XP may be more secure in its own world, as long as you do everything
its way, and turn a blind eye to the additional risks it opens up.

Additional risks being ? Win9x has *no* security to speak of - it was not
designed with security in mind.
But when required to operate in the same way as existing Win9x clients
on a peer-to-peer LAN, it has limitations:
- poor support for anything other than TCP/IP

Not so - you can install run NetBEUI, you can run IPX/SPX, as you wish.
- can't password-block shares
- dangerous hidden "admin" shares exposing the startup axis

Can be disabled, but as nobody ought to have full admin rights anywhere
except those who really need it, this is moot as users can't access it.
- limit of 5, not 10, incomming connects

Not so for XP Pro. And personally if there are that many computers, I vote
for a domain model anyway - peer to peer does not scale well and can be a
nightmare to administer.
It's a case of "be reasonable, do it my way" - and depending on your
requirements and limitations, the result may be far riskier.

Safe Hex applies regardless of version of OS (or OS in general) or disk
format. :)

<snip>
 
G

Guest

At this point I am ready to close discussion on this topic which I created. I appreciate all the input and advice. I've read every article and tried every suggestion

I realize that everyone might not agree. My conclusions based on the contributions and my own experimentation, are as follows.

For Peer-to-Peer networking, XP HOME and perhaps PRO as well are less secure than Win98.

First, Everyone on the LAN will have access to XP shared files. In an era of proliferating Wireless networks, that's a pretty big liability. From MS "for Windows XP Professional computers that are not joined to a domain.. and Windows XP Home Edition computers, all network users are authenticated as guests". (http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;302927)

Second, The "Loss" of NETBEUI. Yes you can install it if you go to the trouble and you ought to consider it for peer to peer because "it's main advantage was that it was not routable, .. and could be used independently of TCP/IP." (ref:cquirke) Use it with a firewall

I Think I'll Keep a Win98 machine around for file sharing on small networks. Other than that, I'm Happy with XP
 
D

Dan

It is up to you.

I think you have probably did not do enough research.

Yes WinXP has it own security issue...blablabla...

But from my experince, once you configure WinXP right, it is 100000 times
more secure than Win98.

Keep win98, I will keep my Win XP.

Good luck

Dan
 

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