Windows Vista Beta Program

[Will]

The only reason people keep discussing this subject is because everyone that
has "MVP" behind their name keeps saying,"YOU WERE NEVER PROMISED ANYTHING "

We know that seeing you have all been saying that for last few days.

My point and the point that many others are trying to make is that the beta
testers weren't promised anything either but some of them are getting a free
copy of the RTM, and all they needed to do to qualify was to report one bug.
There are CPP members out there that have done a lot more than that, and
obviously have much higher skill levels, these CPP members have made the
same or maybe even a greater contribution.
Nobody is saying that all CPP members should get a free copy just the ones
that reported a bug.
The beta testers weren't expecting anything, neither were CPP members, at
this point everything was fair. The point it stopped being fair was when one
party got reward for something and the other didn't.

I really don't mean to offend anyone but surely if people have "MVP" behind
their name they should be expected to at least have the wisdom to realise
that the response of "YOU WEREN'T PROMISED ANYTHING" applies to both the CPP
and beta testers and this being the case. Then it doesn't address the
question of why one group and not the other?

Again I'm not saying that all CPP members should get a copy, but the ones
that did go to the trouble of submitting a bug report should be at least
considered surely there won't be that many that did, I know that I didn't
file any bug reports and I don't expect anything at all, I'm just happy to
have had the chance to use vista before it's release.

 

[deebs]

In a way I am not too proud to say it but most CTPs or CPPs have some
declarations in the form of EULAs that state the obvious.

Once agreed, one has agreed and so in many senses trying to undo that
original agreement is a form of reneging the agreement.

I too wish for wonderful solutions but after agreeing believe it is more
important to uphold that agreement.

Then new information filters in such as the OP describes and one may
become confused and flustered rather easily with that detail of information.

Is there an easy answer?

Well, the agreement was made at installation and the usual solution is
if one now disagrees then uninstall the software.

However, this also seems to go against the spirit and widened
participation of those whom may take the tasks seriously.

It is, in my opinion, not an easy one.

Nevertheless, both parties seem to have sufficient stuff in place.

My greatest hope is that these sort of projects do not go sour from
either the user or providers perspectives.

I suppose that the bottom line is: once agreed it is agreed?

 

[Mark Gillespie]

I joined the Customer Preview Program, and have submitted around 35 error
reports since I first got Vista.

Yiou mean you pressed SEND when something crashed. Do you really think
Microsoft want to give you a free copy for 35 mouse clicks?

Did you download the bug reporting tool, and report non-crashing issues?
Did you take the time to make screendumps, and attach them to your bug
reports? Did you take the time to produce scenarios to reproduce any bug
behaviour?

I did at least 100 of these significant bug reports, and I don't expect
anything in return from Microsoft, it was clearly stated in the CPP intro
what the deal was...

 

[xfile]

See that's the point.

I understand neither has been promised but now one gets a free copy for
certain condition now.

You can continue to elaborate the difference between the two and try to
rationalize it.

But the issue is - since both have never been promised, so neither should
expect to have a gift, and why suddenly TechBeta members know feel that they
are deserved to have gifts but not the CPP?

My friend, it is you failed to see the issue

But it's called selfish

 

[Mr. Vista]

Your post is well reasoned and well articulated Will.
Your comments gain more credence when one considers your statement "I know
that I didn't file any bug reports and I don't expect anything at all".
Your point of view is unselfish, fair and just, which a rare thing in this
ng with the issues you raised.

MS do occasionally look at this ng, and sometimes that includes someone with
similar values to your's, so maybe your thoughts will not be wasted.

Well done.

 

[Mr. Vista]

Byron,
could you re-post in English?.

It was your personal choice to join te CPP though, no asked you to etc. I
can't believe how many people are up in arms about this.

 

[Mr. Vista]

The comment "this issue is being looked at" reminds me of guy I used to work
with. He always said that (or something similar) and did nothing.
We ended up naming him the 'Mirror'.

 

[Mr. Vista]

Actually this is the first I have even heard of a free copy available.
What constitutes being in the beta program?

Knowing the right people.

 

[Mr. Vista]

What's interesting is that you now claim "I don't expect anything in return
from Microsoft", however you previously wrote:
"I did suggest via the Vista feedback system, that discounts/free copies
should be rewarded based on number of verified/unique bug reports
submited. Rewarding those who provide good feedback rather than those
lucky enough to get selected, but can't be bothered..."

Considering that you submitted "at least 100 of these significant bug
reports" then surely such a reward system would reward you. and yet you
claim you "don't expect anything".
Sounds like a double standard to me... Mr. Gillepsie

 

[Rock]

What's interesting is that you now claim "I don't expect anything in
return from Microsoft", however you previously wrote:
"I did suggest via the Vista feedback system, that discounts/free copies
should be rewarded based on number of verified/unique bug reports
submited. Rewarding those who provide good feedback rather than those
lucky enough to get selected, but can't be bothered..."

Considering that you submitted "at least 100 of these significant bug
reports" then surely such a reward system would reward you. and yet you
claim you "don't expect anything".
Sounds like a double standard to me... Mr. Gillepsie

Suggesting that rewards be given based on a certain criteria is _not_
contradictory to not expecting anything. Why can't you understand the
difference and understand that someone can feel that way? There is a big
difference between saying it would be nice to get a reward, and saying I
_expect_ something.

This is the main reason why these threads are started and continue - a sad
attitude of entitlement. Whether one participated in the CPP or the Tech
Beta nothing was promised either group. People should have gone into it,
and come out at the end knowing and feeling that they were not entitled to
anything, and so shouldn't expect anything.

After it was all over, the fact that one group of people in one program
based on an arbitrary criteria - and there has has to be some threshold-
were given something, is irrelevant. Because one group is given something
for free cannot be construed in any way as a basis for claiming me too.

Every reward/bonus program I have ever seen has had this self centered
crying after the fact- poor me why didn't I get it. It's a sad commentary.

 

[Jupiter Jones [MVP]]

If you were a Tech Beta member, you would know it.
Downloading Vista from the public downloads does not make you a Beta tester.
Most who downloaded Vista from the public download are members of the
Customer Preview Program (CPP) and not Technical Beta members.
The Tech Beta and CPP are 2 of many different programs with different
purposes.
They have little in common other than they both use Vista although the Tech
Beta had access to more builds than the CPP.

Someone else suggested "Knowing the right people".
Only very partially true and overly simplistic.
Since Beta participation in many Microsoft technologies is initiation only,
getting known is necessary if participation is desired.
How to get known? Actively participate and contribute.

 

[Jupiter Jones [MVP]]

"YOU WEREN'T PROMISED ANYTHING"
Yes, that applies to the Tech Beta, PP and almost everyone else that
downloaded,used any of the Vista Betas.

"The point it stopped being fair..."
I would disagree for several reasons.
They are Microsoft programs under different management.
The management of the various programs can decide what they want to do for
people in their respective programs.
The Tech Beta drew a line and even at that there is controversy since many
feel they should get it anyway.

Many CPP participants feel similar as you.
Wherever the line is drawn, there will be those that feel they were barely
on the other side of it and try to make their case.
Where would you draw the line?
Be sure to draw it in such a place that no one can come to you complaining
because they feel they are entitled and you unfairly missed their situation.

No one ever said life is fair.
I stop my kids right away when they try to use that to justify anything.
If that is the best reason, the answer is almost always no.

Have you also expressed this to Microsoft through appropriate channels?
Since these are peer to peer newsgroups and not officially monitored by
Microsoft, this is not the place if you desire Microsoft to get your
message.
Microsoft employees may come here on occasion, but they do so on their own
time.
Posting here is good if you want to voice your opinion to others, but if you
want Microsoft to get the message, there are more appropriate, a few are
below:
http://support.microsoft.com/contactus/?WS=Wish
http://support.microsoft.com/gp/contactbug

 

[Bill Frisbee]

Knowing the right people.

I didn't know anyone when I got involved in beta.microsoft.com as it was
known in the past. Go to http://connect.microsoft.com and sign up.
Somethings you may get into, others you won't.


Bill F.

 

[Mark Gillespie]

What's interesting is that you now claim "I don't expect anything in
return
from Microsoft", however you previously wrote:
"I did suggest via the Vista feedback system, that discounts/free copies
should be rewarded based on number of verified/unique bug reports
submited. Rewarding those who provide good feedback rather than those
lucky enough to get selected, but can't be bothered..."

Considering that you submitted "at least 100 of these significant bug
reports" then surely such a reward system would reward you. and yet you
claim you "don't expect anything".
Sounds like a double standard to me... Mr. Gillepsie

Making a suggestion and expecting are entirely different...

It would be nice to ONLY reward those that have contriibuted, be it CPP,
or TechBeta, and this was a suggestion to Microsoft on how to manage this,
as it is, they chose not to, but that's their choice..

The deal was clearly stated on the CPP download page...

 

[Richard G. Harper]

This is all true, to an extent.

Where you and the others are missing the point is that this is a TECHNICAL
SUPPORT FORUM/NEWSGROUP, not a "Whine and Cry on Each Others Shoulders
Because We Did Not Get Anything For Free" forum/newsgroup.

Every message posted here on this particular subject is a waste of the
poster's time. Or an exercise in venting. Either way, it's not providing
technical support nor is it helping to resolve the issues involved.

If you truly object to the way you're being treated, use the feedback
channels available to you and let Microsoft know. But for mercy's sake,
quit flogging your dead pack mammal here. Let us get (back) to work.

Me, I want to support Vista users who are having problems with the Vista
software. Not just Vista users who have problems.

--
Richard G. Harper [MVP Shell/User] (e-mail address removed)
* NEW! Catch my blog ... http://msmvps.com/blogs/rgharper/
* PLEASE post all messages and replies in the newsgroups
* The Website - http://rgharper.mvps.org/
* HELP us help YOU ... http://www.dts-l.org/goodpost.htm

 

[Mr. Vista]

Suggesting that rewards be given based on a certain criteria is _not_
contradictory to not expecting anything. Why can't you understand the
difference and understand that someone can feel that way? There is a big
difference between saying it would be nice to get a reward, and saying I
_expect_ something.

This is the main reason why these threads are started and continue - a sad
attitude of entitlement. Whether one participated in the CPP or the Tech
Beta nothing was promised either group. People should have gone into it,
and come out at the end knowing and feeling that they were not entitled to
anything, and so shouldn't expect anything.

After it was all over, the fact that one group of people in one program
based on an arbitrary criteria - and there has has to be some threshold-
were given something, is irrelevant. Because one group is given
something for free cannot be construed in any way as a basis for claiming
me too.

Every reward/bonus program I have ever seen has had this self centered
crying after the fact- poor me why didn't I get it. It's a sad
commentary.

What's with the underscores?.

Before you judge others as proclaiming "poor me why didn't I get it. It's a
sad commentary" and "a sad attitude of entitlement" you *should* disclose
that you are a member of the Technical Beta program and were given a free
copy of Vista.

Your one-sided selfish comments are hypocritical.

 

[Mr. Vista]

Jupiter,
Were you given a free copy of Vista in recognition of your bug submitting
efforts in the Technical Beta program?.

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

I was a TechBeta participant for a year and a half and I got the freebie.
In fact it is already downloaded and running (x64 version). I don't feel
hypocritical.

MS would be unfair if they promised the freebie to TechBeta testers who
qualified then didn't give every such tester the freebie. But as long as
they state clearly who qualifies for what and then delivers to all who do
they are being fair. If they choose not to include other groups that is
their priviledge.

I suggest that you are using the word "unfair" in a way that blames MS when
the truth is you are simply disappointed. You should be and I can
sympathize with you for being disappointed. I don't blame you a bit for
that. But blaming MS and calling them unfair is not a good way to deal with
disappoinment.

I would like to have seen CPP included in lots of things and when I filled
out my TechBeta final survey I said so. If I had my way you would have the
freebie just for giving input in the newsgroup. But that's just me.

In any case, best of luck with Vista and have a happy Thanksgiving.

 

[xfile]

I would like to have seen CPP included in lots of things and when I filled

out my TechBeta final survey I said so.

Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[Dennis Pack]

Colin:
There is no reason to feel hypocritical for you or any of the TBT
participants. The ones that are being hypocritical are the ones that didn't
receive Vista RTM. I've participated in the x64 and Vista CPP programs, that
doesn't make me a beta tester, I wasn't promised or charged anything for my
participation. There were no broken promises. As a participant in the CPP
programs I submitted bug reports on things that I could duplicate and helped
where I could in the newsgroup but that's all voluntary. The true reward
that I received was a learning experience on a new operating system and the
ability to learn about it before it was released. As part of this learning
experience you and too many others to name have helped me directly and
indirectly. Keep up the great work. Have a great and happy holiday season.