Which ATI (or other? better?) card 1) has DVI and 2) will work with an OLDER AGP chip?


M

MISS CHIEVOUS

I have a PIII 1000 and am seriously considering a DELL 2407WFP LCD 24"
Widescreen Monitor for its PIVOT feature (and price). In case anyone
doesn't know what a PIVOT feature is, it is the ability to rotate the
physical monitor itself by 90° to make use of the entire monitor's
viewable screen dimensions in a PORTRAIT mode, as viewed here:
http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/monitors/2407wfp/en/rotating.htm

I am almost certain the AGP slot on my PIII is 1st generation (possibly
2nd). I am on a fully service-packed Windows 2000 Professional OS and
will be using this monitor to do text work + graphics-related stuff
(brochures, photo touchups etc.) + surfing -- hence, speed is not a
requirement; but crisp text + crisp graphics ARE since I do a lot of
reading on my monitors. My understanding of LCD monitors is that it is
adviseable to have a card that supports DVI. Notwithstanding that, I
want this card to be backwards compatible: My preference is for one
video card that has BOTH a DVI and a VGA slot if I decide at a later
date to use this video card with one of my old CRTs.

Taking into account these three factors:
1) I'd like to have both DVI and VGA slots on the card
2) My mobo has a 1st- (or 2nd) generation AGP chip
3) My OS is Windows 2000 Professional (not the Server version)

What cards should I be looking at? Thanks!

MC
 
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C

Cari

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...&Subcategory=48&description=&Ntk=&srchInDesc=

I went with the ATI x850 Pro and am not disappointed at all. It replaced a
rather ancient (and noisy) Pixelview FX5700. Unfortunately for us AGP
motherboard users, the choice is getting smaller daily.
--
Cari (MS-MVP) Windows Client - Printing & Imaging
www.coribright.com/Windows


I have a PIII 1000 and am seriously considering a DELL 2407WFP LCD 24"
Widescreen Monitor for its PIVOT feature (and price). In case anyone
doesn't know what a PIVOT feature is, it is the ability to rotate the
physical monitor itself by 90° to make use of the entire monitor's
viewable screen dimensions in a PORTRAIT mode, as viewed here:
http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/monitors/2407wfp/en/rotating.htm

I am almost certain the AGP slot on my PIII is 1st generation (possibly
2nd). I am on a fully service-packed Windows 2000 Professional OS and
will be using this monitor to do text work + graphics-related stuff
(brochures, photo touchups etc.) + surfing -- hence, speed is not a
requirement; but crisp text + crisp graphics ARE since I do a lot of
reading on my monitors. My understanding of LCD monitors is that it is
adviseable to have a card that supports DVI. Notwithstanding that, I
want this card to be backwards compatible: My preference is for one
video card that has BOTH a DVI and a VGA slot if I decide at a later
date to use this video card with one of my old CRTs.

Taking into account these three factors:
1) I'd like to have both DVI and VGA slots on the card
2) My mobo has a 1st- (or 2nd) generation AGP chip
3) My OS is Windows 2000 Professional (not the Server version)

What cards should I be looking at? Thanks!

MC
 
G

Gene E. Bloch

I have a PIII 1000 and am seriously considering a DELL 2407WFP LCD 24"
Widescreen Monitor for its PIVOT feature (and price). In case anyone
doesn't know what a PIVOT feature is, it is the ability to rotate the
physical monitor itself by 90° to make use of the entire monitor's
viewable screen dimensions in a PORTRAIT mode, as viewed here:
http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/monitors/2407wfp/en/rotating.htm

I am almost certain the AGP slot on my PIII is 1st generation (possibly
2nd). I am on a fully service-packed Windows 2000 Professional OS and
will be using this monitor to do text work + graphics-related stuff
(brochures, photo touchups etc.) + surfing -- hence, speed is not a
requirement; but crisp text + crisp graphics ARE since I do a lot of
reading on my monitors. My understanding of LCD monitors is that it is
adviseable to have a card that supports DVI. Notwithstanding that, I
want this card to be backwards compatible: My preference is for one
video card that has BOTH a DVI and a VGA slot if I decide at a later
date to use this video card with one of my old CRTs.

Taking into account these three factors:
1) I'd like to have both DVI and VGA slots on the card
2) My mobo has a 1st- (or 2nd) generation AGP chip
3) My OS is Windows 2000 Professional (not the Server version)

What cards should I be looking at? Thanks!

MC

Almost OT: my 19" KDS LCD monitor looks just about as good on analog as
on digital. Actually, I can't really tell the difference... I think
most of today's monitors do the same.

That's good (at least until I retire my old computer) because I still
have two computers connected to the monitor via an analog-only KVM
switch :)
 
C

Clas Mehus

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...&Subcategory=48&description=&Ntk=&srchInDesc=

I went with the ATI x850 Pro and am not disappointed at all. It replaced a
rather ancient (and noisy) Pixelview FX5700. Unfortunately for us AGP
motherboard users, the choice is getting smaller daily.

The X850 dosn't normaly support Dual Link DVI, which (officialy) gives
support for DVI-resolutions above 1600x1200. Radeon X1600 in AGP
should normaly support Dual Link DVI.

The 1920x1200 resolution on the 24" Dell will work on some videboards
without Dual Link DVI. For some boards I belive there is also "tricks"
with reducing refreshrate and using the blanking-area of the picture
to reduce the amount of data the TDMS have to process.

Dual Link DVI is often misunderstood to be the same as Dual DVI. This
is not the same.
 
F

Frodo

Does your system currently use a video card or built-in graphics?
What make and model of motherboard do you have in your computer?

If you get a video card with 2 DVI connectors (and no VGA), it's not a
problem
DVI connectors on graphics cards can work with a VGA connection on a CRT or
LCD.
Just needs a $5-$10 adapter

Something a little older (and cheaper) would be a Matrox G550 32MB card.
Pay something like $25-$40 on EBay
The G550 should work on 99% of all AGP motherboards ever made.
Matrox cards are designed more for the 2D professional, over playing games.
The Matrox G550 drivers would be getting on the old side now.
But as your using an older (pre XP) operating system, should work fine.
Matrox cards do have the best 2D of all the older graphics cards.
ATI cards would be a close second, older Nvidia based cards come in third.
Older Nvidia cards are really built for fast frame rate over 2D quality.

Something like an used ATI 9600XT 128MB would be a good bang for the buck.
With only a PIII 1000MHz CPU anything more expensive would be a waste of
money


I have a PIII 1000 and am seriously considering a DELL 2407WFP LCD 24"
Widescreen Monitor for its PIVOT feature (and price). In case anyone
doesn't know what a PIVOT feature is, it is the ability to rotate the
physical monitor itself by 90° to make use of the entire monitor's
viewable screen dimensions in a PORTRAIT mode, as viewed here:
http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/monitors/2407wfp/en/rotating.htm

I am almost certain the AGP slot on my PIII is 1st generation (possibly
2nd). I am on a fully service-packed Windows 2000 Professional OS and
will be using this monitor to do text work + graphics-related stuff
(brochures, photo touchups etc.) + surfing -- hence, speed is not a
requirement; but crisp text + crisp graphics ARE since I do a lot of
reading on my monitors. My understanding of LCD monitors is that it is
adviseable to have a card that supports DVI. Notwithstanding that, I
want this card to be backwards compatible: My preference is for one
video card that has BOTH a DVI and a VGA slot if I decide at a later
date to use this video card with one of my old CRTs.

Taking into account these three factors:
1) I'd like to have both DVI and VGA slots on the card
2) My mobo has a 1st- (or 2nd) generation AGP chip
3) My OS is Windows 2000 Professional (not the Server version)

What cards should I be looking at? Thanks!

MC
 
M

MISS CHIEVOUS

Frodo said:
Something a little older (and cheaper) would be a Matrox G550 32MB card.
Pay something like $25-$40 on EBay
The G550 should work on 99% of all AGP motherboards ever made.
Matrox cards are designed more for the 2D professional, over playing games.
The Matrox G550 drivers would be getting on the old side now.
But as your using an older (pre XP) operating system, should work fine.
Matrox cards do have the best 2D of all the older graphics cards.
ATI cards would be a close second, older Nvidia based cards come in third.
Older Nvidia cards are really built for fast frame rate over 2D quality.

Something like an used ATI 9600XT 128MB would be a good bang for the buck.
With only a PIII 1000MHz CPU anything more expensive would be a waste of
money

Frodo, thank you so much for that information viz MATROX cards. I've
never heard of them, but they sound like they are much better suited to
my text needs. My only concern is that the card(s) will work with a
monitor as radically new as this 24" Widescreen . . . when ROTATED
90°. This is where things get tricky.

I've started a thread in the DELL forum and hope to get more specific
feedback. I'll investigate this MATROX card in the meantime. It's so
easy for those of us who are __not__ gaming/movie-ing with our monitors
to be taken for granted lol. All I ever hear is "Nvidia" and "ATI" . .
.. but there are probably millions of users such as I who are using our
computers to work with text and graphic design, almost exclusively.
Thank you so much for this information.

MC
 
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B

Benjamin Gawert

* Frodo:
Something a little older (and cheaper) would be a Matrox G550 32MB card.
Pay something like $25-$40 on EBay

This money already gets you some brand new gfx cards from ATI and Nvidia
with more modern GPUs.
The G550 should work on 99% of all AGP motherboards ever made.
Matrox cards are designed more for the 2D professional, over playing games.
The Matrox G550 drivers would be getting on the old side now.
But as your using an older (pre XP) operating system, should work fine.
Matrox cards do have the best 2D of all the older graphics cards.
ATI cards would be a close second, older Nvidia based cards come in third.
Older Nvidia cards are really built for fast frame rate over 2D quality.

Nope. What you probably mean is the analog signal quality which indeed
was great on older Matrox cards up to the G450 series. However, this
only applies to analog monitors (CRTs) or TFTs connected via VGA input.
The Dell 2407FPW also has DVI, and with DVI there simply is no
difference in image quality any more.
Something like an used ATI 9600XT 128MB would be a good bang for the buck.
With only a PIII 1000MHz CPU anything more expensive would be a waste of
money

Right. I'd put something like a Radeon 9200 or Geforce 6200 in this
computer.

Benjamin
 
B

Benjamin Gawert

* MISS CHIEVOUS:
Frodo, thank you so much for that information viz MATROX cards. I've
never heard of them, but they sound like they are much better suited to
my text needs. My only concern is that the card(s) will work with a
monitor as radically new as this 24" Widescreen . . . when ROTATED
90°. This is where things get tricky.

Basically pivot is no problem for any somewhat newer gfx card. But be
aware that some Matrox cards can't do 1920x1200 over DVI which would be
a waste for the Dell 2407FPW. Overall, I'd recommend to stay away from
Matrox.

Benjamin
 
B

Benjamin Gawert

* MISS CHIEVOUS:
I have a PIII 1000 and am seriously considering a DELL 2407WFP LCD 24"
Widescreen Monitor for its PIVOT feature (and price).
Ok.

I am almost certain the AGP slot on my PIII is 1st generation (possibly
2nd).

No, it's probably either second generation (AGP2x) or third (AGP4x).
What it really is will the manual of your mainboard tell you.

I am on a fully service-packed Windows 2000 Professional OS and
will be using this monitor to do text work + graphics-related stuff
(brochures, photo touchups etc.) + surfing -- hence, speed is not a
requirement; but crisp text + crisp graphics ARE since I do a lot of
reading on my monitors.

No problem since the Dell 2407FPW has DVI, and with DVI you won't have
the problem of varying signal quality like it's the case with VGA
connection.
My understanding of LCD monitors is that it is
adviseable to have a card that supports DVI. Notwithstanding that, I
want this card to be backwards compatible: My preference is for one
video card that has BOTH a DVI and a VGA slot if I decide at a later
date to use this video card with one of my old CRTs.

Taking into account these three factors:
1) I'd like to have both DVI and VGA slots on the card

You don't need a VGA port. The DVI ports of common gfx cards also carry
the analog signals so you can connect a CRT with an DVI-VGA-Adapter
(usually comes with the gfx card).
2) My mobo has a 1st- (or 2nd) generation AGP chip

Well, if it's AGP 2x you need a card that does 3.3v signalling voltage.
This excludes all cards that have a GPU with native PCIe interface and
are connected to AGP over a PCIe-AGP-bridge (Rialto) as these bridge
chips only do 1.5v.
3) My OS is Windows 2000 Professional (not the Server version)

What cards should I be looking at? Thanks!

For your purpose get something like a used Radeon 9000, Radeon 9200 or
Radeon 9600 if you want ATI (or a Geforce4 if you want a Nvidia card).
These cards are cheap now, and do everything you want.

Benjamin
 
F

Frodo

I was recommending the Matrox G550 because his motherboard is old and might
only do AGP X1, X2.
And most of the newer AGP cards only do AGP X4, X8
I just bought a used ATI 9600XT AGP 128MB off EBay for $35 (including
shipping).
I use to have a Matrox G400, then used an ATI 9100, then ATI 9600 Pro AIW,
ATI X700, ATI X1600, now an ATI X800XL, all using VGA.
The Matrox still has the best 2D picture, all the ATI cards are a very close
second.
I tried a Viewsonic VX922 LCD 19" with the X1600 running DVI.
My Hitachi 21" monitor had the same picture quality (VGA), so return the
Viewsonic
Did the ATI 9200 ever come with a DVI connection?

Matrox Display support for the G550, per Matrox web site
Maximum resolutions (per display)
. Digital: 1280 x 1024
. Analog, main display: 2048 x 1536
. Analog, secondary display: 1600 x 1200

So the G550 might not have what he is looking for in DVI, but could
work for him in VGA
 
B

Benjamin Gawert

* Frodo:
I was recommending the Matrox G550 because his motherboard is old and might
only do AGP X1, X2.

With a PIII 1GHz it's definitely not AGP1x but at least AGP2x and very
likely AGP4x already.
And most of the newer AGP cards only do AGP X4, X8

No. Only those cards that have a native PCIe interface. All other GPUs
support AGP1x/2x just fine.
I just bought a used ATI 9600XT AGP 128MB off EBay for $35 (including
shipping).
I use to have a Matrox G400, then used an ATI 9100, then ATI 9600 Pro AIW,
ATI X700, ATI X1600, now an ATI X800XL, all using VGA.
The Matrox still has the best 2D picture, all the ATI cards are a very close
second.

The G400 had a very good image quality but this is only relevant when
using analog input. And since using analog input on a 24" TFT with DVI
input would be stupid the analog image quality is rather irrelevant.

Not to forget that the G550 can't compete with the G400 and G450 in
terms of analog image quality.
I tried a Viewsonic VX922 LCD 19" with the X1600 running DVI.
My Hitachi 21" monitor had the same picture quality (VGA), so return the
Viewsonic
Did the ATI 9200 ever come with a DVI connection?

Sure. Even the original Radeon (Radeon 7200) was already available with
DVI. I still have some ATI Radeon 7000s here that I use occasionally,
and even these old cards do 1920x1200 over DVI just fine.
Matrox Display support for the G550, per Matrox web site
Maximum resolutions (per display)
. Digital: 1280 x 1024
. Analog, main display: 2048 x 1536
. Analog, secondary display: 1600 x 1200

So the G550 might not have what he is looking for in DVI, but could
work for him in VGA

IMHO it would be silly to buy a G550 which even can't drive the OPs
monitor at it's native resolutions over DVI.

Benjamin
 
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R

Ray S

Frodo said:
I was recommending the Matrox G550 because his motherboard is old and might
only do AGP X1, X2.
And most of the newer AGP cards only do AGP X4, X8
I just bought a used ATI 9600XT AGP 128MB off EBay for $35 (including
shipping).
I use to have a Matrox G400, then used an ATI 9100, then ATI 9600 Pro AIW,
ATI X700, ATI X1600, now an ATI X800XL, all using VGA.
The Matrox still has the best 2D picture, all the ATI cards are a very close
second.
I tried a Viewsonic VX922 LCD 19" with the X1600 running DVI.
My Hitachi 21" monitor had the same picture quality (VGA), so return the
Viewsonic
Did the ATI 9200 ever come with a DVI connection?

Matrox Display support for the G550, per Matrox web site
Maximum resolutions (per display)
. Digital: 1280 x 1024
. Analog, main display: 2048 x 1536
. Analog, secondary display: 1600 x 1200

So the G550 might not have what he is looking for in DVI, but could
work for him in VGA

I'll second that. If you have an older board and analog monitors, then
the Matrox dualies are a good choice. If your not gaming, just editing
(And don't have software that can take advantage of the OpenGL abilities
of the video card to assist your previews) then these old G450/500 cards
and a good solution.
 
M

MISS CHIEVOUS

Benjamin said:
(so much I can't list it!)

Benjamin, how can I thank you enough for this __incredible__ DETAIL?!?
:D

OMG there is so much data here I'm going to print the thread out and
rip it to a PDF lol. THANK YOU. I'll study your posts and reply with
any further questions.

In the meantime, I've dug up my motherboard manual and I thought I
would share a couple of features I hadn't previously listed in my
system description.

First, this is a SUPERMICRO P6DGU motherboard. It is a dual-processor
Pentium III motherboard (one of the last of its breed) capable of 1000
X 2. I actually have two (stepped) 1000 processors in the system. The
only reason I typically refer to it as a 1000 is that not all
applications are capable of recognizing its 2000 speed (if I remember
correctly, it's been 5 years since I built the computer). I bought
this motherboard expressly for its abundant ISA slots. I have certain
older ISA cards that I prefer using for their reliability and
stability; thus, the P6DGU was a perfect compromise for me, allowing me
to "straddle" older technology while still having (reasonable) speed.
I love this motherboard. It's just awesome.

Second, my Supermicro manual indicates that I do indeed have AGP 2X
onboard. Just realize that what I do NOT have is PCI Express. In the
Dell forum a Dell employee stated that Dell has not tested this 24"
Widescreen monitor with any AGP cards -- only PCIe.

This is going to be interesting to say the least. ;)

MC
 
B

Benjamin Gawert

* MISS CHIEVOUS:
Benjamin, how can I thank you enough for this __incredible__ DETAIL?!?
:D

You're welcome!
First, this is a SUPERMICRO P6DGU motherboard.

This helps a lot. The P6DGU is a dual processor slot1 mainboard with
i440GX chipset which is AGP 2x (3.3v).
It is a dual-processor
Pentium III motherboard (one of the last of its breed) capable of 1000
X 2. I actually have two (stepped) 1000 processors in the system. The
only reason I typically refer to it as a 1000 is that not all
applications are capable of recognizing its 2000 speed

Right, since 2x1000Mhz doesn't make it 2000Mhz. Even with two CPUs you
can't run a task faster than the speed of a single 1GHz cpu. Of course
you have two processors and thus can run two tasks at the same time at
(around!) the same speed but still it doesn't make it a 2GHz computer.
(if I remember
correctly, it's been 5 years since I built the computer). I bought
this motherboard expressly for its abundant ISA slots. I have certain
older ISA cards that I prefer using for their reliability and
stability; thus, the P6DGU was a perfect compromise for me, allowing me
to "straddle" older technology while still having (reasonable) speed.
I love this motherboard. It's just awesome.

Well, Supermicro is one of the best manufacturer for workstation and
server boards.

May I ask you what operating system you are using?
Second, my Supermicro manual indicates that I do indeed have AGP 2X
onboard.
Correct.

Just realize that what I do NOT have is PCI Express.
Correct.

In the
Dell forum a Dell employee stated that Dell has not tested this 24"
Widescreen monitor with any AGP cards -- only PCIe.

The monitor doesn't give a s**t what interface the gfx card is using to
the mainboard. All that matters is that the card has an output (VGA or
DVI) that does 1920x1200.
This is going to be interesting to say the least. ;)

Not really. You just have to be aware that the latest AGP cards won't
work in your mainboard due to the voltage issue. Besides that you're
fine with most ATI or Nvidia cards out there. I'd avoid wasting money on
Matrox at all cost, and stay away from the Geforce FX5200 and FX5500 as
some cheap crappy cards come with a buggy BIOS that limit the DVI output
of these cards to 1280x1024.

If I were you I'd get a Radeon 9600 (no matter if it's a XT, SE, Pro or
whatever as your computer can't satisfy the card enough that you notice
any difference), Radeon 9200, Geforce4Ti4200 or something in this class.

Benjamin
 
F

Frodo

The Radeon 9200 & Nvidia 4200 are Direct X8 cards.
ATI 9600 series would have Direct X9 support.
My used ATI 9600XT was $33 from EBay
 
F

Frodo

The ATI 9600 series does not support AGP X2, only X4 & X8
Also the ATI 9550, 9800, x700 & X800 do not support AGP X2 (per ATI's web
site).
The ATI 9500 series does support AGP X2, but is uses more electricity.
What's the power rating on your power supply?

Also the ATI 8500 & 9100 are faster then the 9000 & 9200.
 
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B

Benjamin Gawert

* Frodo:
The ATI 9600 series does not support AGP X2, only X4 & X8
Also the ATI 9550, 9800, x700 & X800 do not support AGP X2 (per ATI's web
site).

The text on the website is wrong (well, it's right, though, as ATI
doesn't _support_ these cards in AGP1x/2x slots any more, but
"not_supported" does not mean "does not work". It's more an issue to
avoid support inquiries). Except X700 and X800 all these GPUs do support
AGP2x and also support 3.3v. I once had a noname Radeon 9600 card in my
old PII with AGP 1x.

Benjamin
 
F

Frodo

Cool.

Benjamin Gawert said:
* Frodo:


The text on the website is wrong (well, it's right, though, as ATI doesn't
_support_ these cards in AGP1x/2x slots any more, but "not_supported" does
not mean "does not work". It's more an issue to avoid support inquiries).
Except X700 and X800 all these GPUs do support AGP2x and also support
3.3v. I once had a noname Radeon 9600 card in my old PII with AGP 1x.

Benjamin
 
Y

Yousuf Khan

Gene said:
Almost OT: my 19" KDS LCD monitor looks just about as good on analog as
on digital. Actually, I can't really tell the difference... I think most
of today's monitors do the same.
That's good (at least until I retire my old computer) because I still
have two computers connected to the monitor via an analog-only KVM
switch :)

Yeah, DVI doesn't improve your picture one iota. About the only
advantage I've seen from it is that with an lcd monitor, it allows you
to scale the non-native resolutions a little better, closer to a CRT
monitor's scaling.

Yousuf Khan
 
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G

Gene E. Bloch

Yeah, DVI doesn't improve your picture one iota. About the only advantage
I've seen from it is that with an lcd monitor, it allows you to scale the
non-native resolutions a little better, closer to a CRT monitor's scaling.

Yousuf Khan

My point is that analog on LCD monitors has gotten very good these
days. It wasn't always so...
 

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