WGA Ain't So Bad

[Noozer]

WHA...???

Explain, please.

WGA uses your CPU to gather information about you and your PC - what
software is installed, what hardware is installed, what activities you
perform on your PC, and sends it all back to Microsoft. It does nothing for
you except take up CPU power and internet bandwidth; and introduce another
place for bugs and errors to crop up.

Because it exposes pirated software, or because it has glitches that
sometimes make a proper product APPEAR to be pirated?

Yes.

If MS wants to check if my Windows is valid, do so - but DON'T install
anything resident. DON'T collect demographics based on MY usage, software
and hardware. ON'T issue me happy, friendly warnings if it finds I'm
illegal - just KILL the Windows installation immediatlely. They just better
be SURE that my copy *IS* pirated or face a big lawsuit.

 

[Noozer]

Not all updates to AV benefit you - what about the ones that check your
licensing?

What's wrong with that? They don't stay resident. They don't collect MY
usage habits, etc. and send them home. They don't LIE and say that it's
required for security.

 

[Noozer]

1) WGA only seems to impact pirated copy users
Wrong

2) WGA may (see 1 above) impact a small number of non-pirated copies,
but from all the posts/complaints I've read, it's been less than 1 out
of all the posts here. When you present people with the information to
check the validity of their license, check how they obtained it, that
they have no COA, no CD/Media, no restore partition/disk, you don't hear
from them again - problem appears to have resolve itself as a pirated
copy of xp

Which proves #1 is wrong.

3) If you do identify a user as having a pirated copy, well, there isn't
much you can do for them.

There has been no wavering on my part, WGA works well, it detects
pirated copies, it does not cause problems on properly licensed
computers for masses of users, and it impacts what would seem to be less
than 1% (actually a lot smaller) of people using XP.

It does cause LOTS of problems. It uses CPU time. It uses bandwidth from my
internet connection. It uses MY computer to collect data about MY usage,
hardware and software without any warning. It introduced another point in
the OS where stability can be put into question.

Tell me WHY I can't uninstall WGA once I've proven that my OS is valid? If
it's just validating my Windows and doing nothing else, why can't I remove
it once it's done its job?

 

[Leythos]

Uhm... "Automatic' infers lack of user intervention.

Automatic updates are initiated by the user, once enabled they are
automatic, that's why they call them Automatic.

Also, how do you explain that the WGA update was pushed to the public as a
security update? It's actually the opposite, allowing Microsoft into your PC
to spy on what you have and what you do.

Maybe you could look at it another way: Let say you have a pirated copy
of XP, but you don't know it, you want to assume your copy is legit and
contains no malware when you got it. You want to keep getting Windows
updates, and you want a valid path for upgrade later. It would seem to
me that if you are running a pirated copy of XP that your security is at
risk, since you don't really know what you're running, and since it
protects the user, allowing them to know if they purchased from a legit
source or not....

Sounds like a security update to me.

 

[Noozer]

Automatic updates are initiated by the user, once enabled they are
automatic, that's why they call them Automatic.


Maybe you could look at it another way: Let say you have a pirated copy
of XP, but you don't know it, you want to assume your copy is legit and
contains no malware when you got it. You want to keep getting Windows
updates, and you want a valid path for upgrade later. It would seem to
me that if you are running a pirated copy of XP that your security is at
risk, since you don't really know what you're running, and since it
protects the user, allowing them to know if they purchased from a legit
source or not....

Sounds like a security update to me.

Well, you certainly have a twisted definition of security then.

If my machine in running fine, the WGA does nothing to change that. It does
nothing to prevent something new from being introduced to the computer.

 

[Leythos]

What's wrong with that? They don't stay resident. They don't collect MY
usage habits, etc. and send them home. They don't LIE and say that it's
required for security.

Are you sure? How do you know what the AV software on your computer is
doing? How do you know what any software is doing on your computer?

How about the various software packages that HAVE tracked what you do,
and say they don't, and screw up your computer, and get exploited by
malware?

Come on, you can't be that naive can you?

 

[ANONYMOUS]

It's actually the opposite, allowing Microsoft into your PC
to spy on what you have and what you do.

what use is this for a mega corporation like MS? I am just a small fish
in a big pond and what I have and what I do is of no use at all for a
large corporation. I don't give them my email nor my address so they
can't send me anything. Also, if they gather info about my usage of
applications then it is unlikely they can get in touch with me as I have
no permanent address.

What exactly are you thinking of?

They may try to block use of applications (which they think is pirated)
but there is no evidence of this either [YET!]. Any intelligence they
get from me is likely to be as good as George Bush;s intelligence on WMD
or recent bungling of British secret service arrest and shooting of an
innocent muslim ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5049800.stm ). We are
living in a very dangerous world! Tomorrow is 06/06/06 and
superstitions will have a field day on this date! We could be attacked
by an asteroids!

hth

 

[Noozer]

Antivirus definitions have nothing to do with this, and the analogy is

Are you sure? How do you know what the AV software on your computer is
doing? How do you know what any software is doing on your computer?

I assume that you don't know how to view the processes running on your PC,
or what traffic is flowing over your network connection?

How about the various software packages that HAVE tracked what you do,
and say they don't, and screw up your computer, and get exploited by
malware?

Fortunately, there is software that blocks these programs from getting out
to the internet.

When I find software that does this, I uninstall it; I contact the
manufacturer about it; I do what I can to alert other computer users about
the sleazy activities of said company. My latest example of this was Corel
X3 - there is NO way provided to disable or remove the component that
occasionally goes out to the internet looking for updates. A drawing program
has no business going out to the net unless specifically asked to by the
user.

Come on, you can't be that naive can you?

You are the one being naive... You think that there is nothing wrong with
letting Microsoft use your computer to track what you do, what software is
installed (even NON-MS software) and what hardware you're using. For all I
know it's also collecting language data to generate demographics based on
race. There is also no proof to ensure that other individuals won't be able
to take advantage of this software for their own uses, as was the case with
Sony's rootkit.

Validate my Windows, that's fine. DON'T stat resident and spy on me. Don't
contact Microsoft for any reason, unless I am no legit.

 

[Noozer]

what use is this for a mega corporation like MS? I am just a small fish
in a big pond and what I have and what I do is of no use at all for a
large corporation. I don't give them my email nor my address so they
can't send me anything. Also, if they gather info about my usage of
applications then it is unlikely they can get in touch with me as I have
no permanent address.

But if you get all the small fish together, it's very important (supposedly)

And just because you don't give them your email address doesn't mean that
WGA can't find it and send it to MS anyhow.

Also, are you content knowing that some of your computer is being used (all
the time) to do work for Microsoft instead of being free for your use?

 

[Leythos]

I assume that you don't know how to view the processes running on your PC,
or what traffic is flowing over your network connection?

Sure I do, I design secure networks for a living. I have a WatchGuard
Firebox X1000 in my home even. I can see in real time what files/items
are being downloaded via HTTP, FTP, SMTP, etc...

Does your question mean that you don't understand? I'm confused, how
could you know what, specifically, the AV software or other vendors
software is actually doing on your computer - fact is that you don't,
you just trust that it's doing what you think it should be doing.

Fortunately, there is software that blocks these programs from getting out
to the internet.

Really? Are you saying that nothing on your computer can reach the
Internet without your approval at the instant that it wants out - and I
mean Nothing can get out?

When I find software that does this, I uninstall it; I contact the
manufacturer about it; I do what I can to alert other computer users about
the sleazy activities of said company. My latest example of this was Corel
X3 - there is NO way provided to disable or remove the component that
occasionally goes out to the internet looking for updates. A drawing program
has no business going out to the net unless specifically asked to by the
user.


You are the one being naive... You think that there is nothing wrong with
letting Microsoft use your computer to track what you do, what software is
installed (even NON-MS software) and what hardware you're using.

If I was concerned I would not be using XP on my systems or my clients
systems. Since the activation key is tied to the hardware, they already
had that info, as for software, they already know what MS products I've
installed, as it's checked each time I download updates for them....

For all I
know it's also collecting language data to generate demographics based on
race. There is also no proof to ensure that other individuals won't be able
to take advantage of this software for their own uses, as was the case with
Sony's rootkit.

Yep, you are right, it could be doing anything, and we won't know until
some third party takes it apart and tells us what it's really doing.
Until that time you only have two choices, use it or use something else.

Validate my Windows, that's fine. DON'T stat resident and spy on me. Don't
contact Microsoft for any reason, unless I am no legit.

I agree, I don't want it resident on ANY computers we have, clients or
personal, but, I don't have much choice, don't have any problems with
any of the more than 1500 machines running it, and have not seen any
significant amount of users with legit licenses that are impacted by it.

 

[Leythos]

Also, are you content knowing that some of your computer is being used (all
the time) to do work for Microsoft instead of being free for your use?

Hey, guess what, I have WGA installed, get updates, don't have WGA
Notification installed, as I look at my updates before I install them,
and there is nothing extra running in the task menu taking up any time
on my computer.

If you don't know what you are downloading then you deserve what you
get.

 

[Noozer]

You are the one being naive... You think that there is nothing wrong with

If I was concerned I would not be using XP on my systems or my clients
systems. Since the activation key is tied to the hardware, they already
had that info, as for software, they already know what MS products I've
installed, as it's checked each time I download updates for them....

Actually, the activation key is tied to a system generated ID. There is no
way to decern what hardware or software is installed based on this ID. This
is perfectly acceptable. Using the information sent back to Microsoft, there
is no way to say that "x" number of users have Seagate hard drives, or "x"
number of users choose to have Firefox installed on their PC.

WGA does *NOT* function in the same manner as the activation key ID. WGA
sends actual lists of what hardware and software are installed on your PC.
With this information, Microsoft can tell you how many XP users have nVidia
video cards, use the CIBC bank, have installed Bonzai Buddy.

Yep, you are right, it could be doing anything, and we won't know until
some third party takes it apart and tells us what it's really doing.
Until that time you only have two choices, use it or use something else.

I just don't allow the WGA to install. If it comes down to the point where I
can't use Windows if I don't have it - I will be switching OS's.

 

[Noozer]

Hey, guess what, I have WGA installed, get updates, don't have WGA
Notification installed, as I look at my updates before I install them,
and there is nothing extra running in the task menu taking up any time
on my computer.

If you don't know what you are downloading then you deserve what you
get.

If Microsoft didn't LIE about it, it wouldn't be such a big deal. It's
identified INCORRECTLY as a security update. How can users know what they
are downloading when Microsoft itself doesn't tell them?

In most of their software they ask if you'd like to participate in a program
to help improve the software. Media Player does it, Office does it. Why
can't the WGA work the same way?

 

[Rhonda Lea Kirk]

No, it's not even close to a contradiction, just think about the
processes where you are asked if you want to enable automatic updates
and what you agreed too.

What does this sentence mean?

Whatever it means, it doesn't change the fact that you contradicted
yourself in responding to Alias.

Wrong, you have to enable them, at that point they default to
installing at 3AM, but they are not enabled by default on any
computer I've installed.

They were enabled by default on mine.

I don't use OneCare on any system, we get all the updates, and we had
to approve turning them on before they were enabled, it's always been
this way since they automated it. Check you facts before telling me
I'm wrong again.

I'm sorry. I don't even understand this sentence.

First of all, updates were turned on when I received this computer from
Dell. Second of all, I agreed to nothing. I have turned automatic
updates on and off at different times (before I had OneCare), and I have
never been asked to agree to anything. This is covered by the EULA.
Perhaps you should read it.

If you have a fact to present, present it. If you want to go from
debating facts to hurling insults, leave me out of it.

--
Rhonda Lea Kirk

Insisting on perfect safety is for people
without the balls to live in the real world.
Mary Shafer Iliff

 

[Rhonda Lea Kirk]

WHA...???

Explain, please.

How does it benefit me for WGA to load and phone home at each and every
startup?

I'm not on a broadband connection; I'm using an air card. It's a royal
pain in my tush.

And, since downloading this last one, I'm experiencing other problems
that I haven't yet figured out. But there isn't anything else to
attribute it to, because I haven't done anything else.

And no, I have no spyware, no virus, no rootkit on this machine...except
for WGA, of course.

Because it exposes pirated software, or because it has glitches that
sometimes make a proper product APPEAR to be pirated?

Generally speaking, causing people who are knowingly using pirated
software to pay for their software is a good thing. Generally speaking.

But we've been hearing stories about donated computers and single
mothers and handicapped users and so on, ad nauseum, and that's not
great for PR, most especially since it does not get to the root of the
problem, i.e., the actual software pirates. It's like trying to win the
drug wars by putting casual pot smokers in jail for a long time.

Collateral damage is always a consideration in any action, but Microsoft
seems not to know this.

And putting a legitimate user to the trouble of proving that his product
is authentic is even worse.

Finally, the fact that WGA acts like spyware is very, very bad PR.

--
Rhonda Lea Kirk

Insisting on perfect safety is for people
without the balls to live in the real world.
Mary Shafer Iliff

 

[antioch]

I'm not running WGA Notifications on this computer, and I just did a
manual Windows Update Custom, and was able to download and install
updates without any problems.

Hi Leythos
I have nothing against WGA etc apart from me being forced to keep it on my
computer.
OK then, what are the update KB numbers and dates that you have just done -
ignore all software/non-critical etc.
I have WGA and I have not seen an update other than Mal Software - and I
have had five of those since 26 May??
Rgds
Antioch

 

[Rhonda Lea Kirk]

Nope, you're technical lack of understanding is getting in the way of
your area of expertise - since you don't have the technical side clear
you can't argue with facts.

You permitted automatic updates to work, you or the person that setup
your computer agreed to it, and that's where your logic is failing,
you don't get automatic updates if you don't agree to it to start
with.

Oh, and I've refuted many posts about it, as have others, you're just
not listening:

1) WGA only seems to impact pirated copy users
2) WGA may (see 1 above) impact a small number of non-pirated copies,
but from all the posts/complaints I've read, it's been less than 1 out
of all the posts here. When you present people with the information to
check the validity of their license, check how they obtained it, that
they have no COA, no CD/Media, no restore partition/disk, you don't
hear from them again - problem appears to have resolve itself as a
pirated copy of xp
3) If you do identify a user as having a pirated copy, well, there
isn't much you can do for them.

There has been no wavering on my part, WGA works well, it detects
pirated copies, it does not cause problems on properly licensed
computers for masses of users, and it impacts what would seem to be
less than 1% (actually a lot smaller) of people using XP.

Want to try again?

No.

I didn't say you've wavered. I've said that you swerve. And you do. You
evade by blather any argument that you have no answer for.

Your numerical list above is contradictory in the first two items, and
the last is just...gratuitous, I guess. I don't know what else to call
it.

I don't need a technical understanding to read a definition and to see
that WGA fits that definition, Leythos, but I do have more technical
understanding than you give me credit for. And the use of the language
is my forte. I do understand what Microsoft wrote--even terms of art are
comprehensible for the careful reader because their definitions require
the use of commonly understood words.

Besides which, the link which was posted with Microsoft's defintion of
spyware is plain language.

You've refuted nothing. You've evaded. You've obfuscated. But you have
not made a good argument for WGA, and you have not refuted a single
argument against it.

What you have done is try to put forth your opinion as fact. Badly.

I like you a lot, but this is just bloody annoying.

--
Rhonda Lea Kirk

Insisting on perfect safety is for people
without the balls to live in the real world.
Mary Shafer Iliff

 

[Rhonda Lea Kirk]

Antioch wrote:

I'm not running WGA Notifications on this computer,

Why not?

You're the big proponent and you're not running what you advocate?

<laughing>

and I just did a

manual Windows Update Custom, and was able to download and install
updates without any problems.

Good for you.

--
Rhonda Lea Kirk

Insisting on perfect safety is for people
without the balls to live in the real world.
Mary Shafer Iliff

 

[Rhonda Lea Kirk]

RL,
I'm with you all the way until the last sentence. I've downloaded and
installed the WGA Validation tool, but not any of the WGA Notification
tools (the one that phones home). I've been back to WU several times
since, and all it does is complain that I've opted to hide a critical
update. WGA Validation said that my system is genuine, and I've also
been to the site that Carey Frisch recommends, where, when I click the
"validate" button, it says everything's OK.

Are you suggesting that because I haven't installed the WGA
Notification tool there are updates hidden from me at WU? Including
perhaps critical updates that I won't know a thing about because I've
elected not to be "notified" about something to which I already know
the answer?

That was my understanding. Let's hope I misunderstood, and that it's
optional, not mandatory.

I've downloaded it, but it can't get past my firewall. I haven't tried
to remove it, but I suppose it's worth trying, just to see what will
happen when next I go to update.

--
Rhonda Lea Kirk

Insisting on perfect safety is for people
without the balls to live in the real world.
Mary Shafer Iliff

 

[Leythos]

In most of their software they ask if you'd like to participate in a program
to help improve the software. Media Player does it, Office does it. Why
can't the WGA work the same way?

And how many pirated copy owners, known or unknown, do you think would
participate in it?

Doesn't it defeat the point of using it at all of you make it completely
optional?

Customer: Hey, MS has this new tool that they say can detect if my
version is pirated and if it is, it will nag the heck out of me to get
legit.

Customer: Do I really want to risk it? Nah, no point.

Pirate: Ha Ha Ha, do they really think I'm going to install that on any
of the computers I've got running pirated software!