Vista -> Personal Folder -> Unix NAS BUG

[Nick]

Hi there,

I've found what I can only presume is a bug. If I map a network drive to my
NAS, which happens to be an ICYBOX-IB4220-B, the network drive works
perfectly. When I delete files, they disappear, the drive does not use the
recycle bin, I am okay with this.

If I then map one of my personal folders, lets say "My Music" to the newly
created network drive, I start recieving recycle bin errors.

"The Recycle Bin on M:\My Music is corrupted. Do you want to empty the
Recycle Bin for this drive?"

This happens pretty much any time the recycle bin is used, as if it's
enumerating all bins in order to see what's there.

Any idea on how to resolve this as it's getting quite annoying now?

BTW. I've verified this on 2 separate systems, both running Vista Business.

Thanks in advance.

Nick.

 

[Nick]

Hi there,

Unfortunately that didn't help, I've tried deleting the folder many
times, it still comes back any time the main recycle bin is accessed, and
even with the recycle bin *disabled* for that Network drive.

Nick.

 

[Kerry Brown]

Hi there,

I've found what I can only presume is a bug. If I map a network drive to
my NAS, which happens to be an ICYBOX-IB4220-B, the network drive works
perfectly. When I delete files, they disappear, the drive does not use
the recycle bin, I am okay with this.

If I then map one of my personal folders, lets say "My Music" to the newly
created network drive, I start recieving recycle bin errors.

"The Recycle Bin on M:\My Music is corrupted. Do you want to empty the
Recycle Bin for this drive?"

This happens pretty much any time the recycle bin is used, as if it's
enumerating all bins in order to see what's there.

Any idea on how to resolve this as it's getting quite annoying now?

BTW. I've verified this on 2 separate systems, both running Vista
Business.

Instead of mapping a drive try redirecting to the UNC path as in
\\ICYBOX-IB4220-B\My Music

It's a guess but give it a try and post back with the results.

 

[Nick]

Hi Kerry,

Instead of mapping a drive try redirecting to the UNC path as in
\\ICYBOX-IB4220-B\My Music

It's a guess but give it a try and post back with the results.

The NAS is Unix based, and if I refer to it as a network share there are no
options for me to enter alternate credentials so referring to a network
share just isn't an option.

The network drive itself is not a problem, that works great, it's the
mapping of a personal folder onto the network share, for some reason that
forces the destination to become included in some kind of enumeration for
the recycle bin.

I have noticed there is a similar issue for XP and 2000 with a hotfix
available, but not for Vista. I think it's fair to presume the bug exists
in Vista as it does in XP, it's not as if Vista was delivered to us with les
bugs than XP unfortunately.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/297760

The NAS is going to be used as my primary source of storage as I do not
trust hard drives in my case anymore, 2 failures in 1 year is enough for me
to make the transition.

Nick.

 

[Kerry Brown]

Hi Kerry,


The NAS is Unix based, and if I refer to it as a network share there are
no options for me to enter alternate credentials so referring to a network
share just isn't an option.

The network drive itself is not a problem, that works great, it's the
mapping of a personal folder onto the network share, for some reason that
forces the destination to become included in some kind of enumeration for
the recycle bin.

I have noticed there is a similar issue for XP and 2000 with a hotfix
available, but not for Vista. I think it's fair to presume the bug exists
in Vista as it does in XP, it's not as if Vista was delivered to us with
les bugs than XP unfortunately.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/297760

The NAS is going to be used as my primary source of storage as I do not
trust hard drives in my case anymore, 2 failures in 1 year is enough for
me to make the transition.

If the NAS is using Samba for windows file sharing you should be able to
access it using a UNC path. Are there any updates for the NAS firmware to a
newer Samba version? If not you could try this

http://www.jimmah.com/vista/content.aspx?id=33

You could also try entering the credentials needed for the NAS here:

Control Panel =>User Accounts =>User Accounts =>Manage your network
passwords

The NAS also uses hard drives I've found some NAS' more prone to drive
failures than PCs due to overheating issues.

 

[Nick]

Hi Kerry,

If the NAS is using Samba for windows file sharing you should be able to
access it using a UNC path. Are there any updates for the NAS firmware to
a newer Samba version? If not you could try this

http://www.jimmah.com/vista/content.aspx?id=33

You could also try entering the credentials needed for the NAS here:

Control Panel =>User Accounts =>User Accounts =>Manage your network
passwords

I have not said that I can't access the drive via a UNC Share, that is
how it's mapped to the network drive in the first place, there is no other
way to map it afaik. What I am referring to is other applications accessing
the mapped drive and automatically being granted access due to the
credentials being cached in the network drive configuration. I am not so
sure that simply adding a network location and "remembering the password"
will enable low level enough access to all applications which is 100%
critical for my use.

The correct way to use a NAS is via a mapped drive, which as I said
*works*. The bug is with the personal folder mapping deciding top enforce a
recycle bin upon the target when it has not been requested, and has even
been disabled.

The NAS also uses hard drives I've found some NAS' more prone to drive
failures than PCs due to overheating issues.

Yes, indeed it does use a hard drive, but my Dell E520 case is poorly
designed and the 2 hard drives being so close together with no space for air
circulation has resulted in 2 hard drive failures this year, 1 last year and
the current hard drive is in the process of failing. Hence why I purchased
a NAS caddy that has an independent thermostat controlled cooling fan and is
stored in an aluminium caddy. It's also capable of Raid, something which I
can't do in my current case because I do not have enough space for 3 hard
drives unless I use a 5 1/4" drive bay.

Nick.

 

[Nick]

BTW, just so you know, referring the personal folder to the network share
results in exactly the same problem as if it was referring to a Mapped
Network Drive.

I can't help thinking this is just simply a bug.

 

[Kerry Brown]

Hi Kerry,


I have not said that I can't access the drive via a UNC Share, that is
how it's mapped to the network drive in the first place, there is no other
way to map it afaik. What I am referring to is other applications
accessing the mapped drive and automatically being granted access due to
the credentials being cached in the network drive configuration. I am not
so sure that simply adding a network location and "remembering the
password" will enable low level enough access to all applications which is
100% critical for my use.

The correct way to use a NAS is via a mapped drive, which as I said
*works*. The bug is with the personal folder mapping deciding top enforce
a recycle bin upon the target when it has not been requested, and has even
been disabled.

Our opinion differs here. After many years of administering networks I
believe whenever possible UNC paths should be used. You never know what
account context will be used to access a network share. It may not be your
account but a system account that needs access. That may be what is
happening in this case. The mapped drive will not exist for the system
account. Adding your account to the cached passwords sometimes gets around
the permissions issue but it won't get past a non-existing mapped drive for
a system account.

If the NAS device allows you low level access to the NAS OS you can try the
following Samba config changes and file system permissions.

http://blogs.technet.com/filecab/ar...files-with-samba-emc-servers-nas-devices.aspx

Most consumer NAS' don't allow these types of configuration changes. You are
reliant on the NAS manufacturer to come out with a Vista compatible firmware
update.

You are trying to do something that is explicitly not supported so it can't
really be called a bug. You could just as easily call it a bug in the NAS
firmware. It's a problem with networking mixed OS' in general. I know it's
frustrating but not everything works when you mix OS' on a network. After a
while you learn to work around it. I quit using consumer NAS devices for
these reasons. FWIW I had similar problems when using newer versions of
Linux accessing a NAS with an older version of Samba. XP worked but not
Ubuntu 8.04 or Vista. I also couldn't access the NAS from an Acronis Linux
based restore CD.

 

[Nick]

Hi Kerry,

Our opinion differs here. After many years of administering networks I
believe whenever possible UNC paths should be used. You never know what
account context will be used to access a network share. It may not be your
account but a system account that needs access. That may be what is
happening in this case. The mapped drive will not exist for the system
account. Adding your account to the cached passwords sometimes gets around
the permissions issue but it won't get past a non-existing mapped drive
for a system account.

The same path is resolved ultimately, so what's the difference? The
main differences for me; is having the data accessible via a drive for ease
of use and also assurance that credentials have already been authenticated
during the connection process. Either way, this is *not* a problem with
mapping a network drive, or referring to a UNC share, this is a problem with
mapping said path to a *personal folder*. Both mapped drive and UNC share
work great on their own, the problem occurs when changing the location of a
personal folder, such as "My Music" to said location, then the error occurs.

If the NAS device allows you low level access to the NAS OS you can try
the following Samba config changes and file system permissions.

http://blogs.technet.com/filecab/ar...files-with-samba-emc-servers-nas-devices.aspx

Unfortunately I'm not sure I have low enough level access to be making the
above changes.

Most consumer NAS' don't allow these types of configuration changes. You
are reliant on the NAS manufacturer to come out with a Vista compatible
firmware update.

Or for Microsoft to fix the obvious bug that's occuring here. If I
apply a setting in any application, I expect that setting to take effect,
this is not happening in Vista. I'll give you a perfect example,

1. Right click recycle bin
2. Locate mapped drive, this appear the second you map the drive to a
personal folder.
3. Click on "Do not move files to the Recycle Bin. Remove files
immediately when deleted."

The above does not get applied and the error continues. It's quite
obvious that the NAS does not support trashing to a recycle bin because
before it is mapped to the personal folder it works correctly and deleted
files are removed without being recycled, this is automatically configured
this way. Vista is trying to be clever and presuming that just because it's
a personal folder that I want Recycle bin capabilities, I don't it's not
working with this drive.

I've tested this in XP and it works just fine, no tedious error messages
appear as the recycle bin knows it can't work for that location.

Just to clarify this entire problem, this bug is not with mapping
network drives or referring to UNC locations, it only occurs once you have
mapped said location to a personal folder. Upon this mapping an entry for
the mapped drive / UNC appears in the recycle bin tree, all settings for
this location are completely ignored and it insists on creating a recycle
bin folder, and attemping to use it. Unmap the location as a personal
folder and the bug goes away.

Nick.

 

[Nick]

Hi B.B.,

does this NAS have FTP?

if so you can perhaps use that route to connect by creating a share on
vista

Indeed it has FTP, although I'm not sure that it's a good choice in
protocol for a heavy use file system as traversing the tree can be quite
lengthy at times. Although I have used an FTP client to transfer the
majority of the files, simply because the options for existing files is just
allot nicer than what Explorer offers.

Also, accessing in this way looses allot of functionality such as ID3 Tag
enumeration and thumbnailing.

You know you can connected external shared locations and they appear as
folders on vista (and xp)

just a thought...

I'm not sure I understand what you mean, isn't this what I'm doing anyway?

Nick.

 

[Kerry Brown]

Hi Kerry,


The same path is resolved ultimately, so what's the difference? The
main differences for me; is having the data accessible via a drive for
ease of use and also assurance that credentials have already been
authenticated during the connection process. Either way, this is *not* a
problem with mapping a network drive, or referring to a UNC share, this is
a problem with mapping said path to a *personal folder*. Both mapped
drive and UNC share work great on their own, the problem occurs when
changing the location of a personal folder, such as "My Music" to said
location, then the error occurs.

I've already explained the difference. The mapped drive only exists for your
account. It does not exist for system accounts. It may be a system account
that is accessing the NAS. Explicitly setting your account in the cached
credentials MAY allow the other accounts to access the NAS. It is worth a
try.

Unfortunately I'm not sure I have low enough level access to be making
the above changes.


Or for Microsoft to fix the obvious bug that's occuring here. If I
apply a setting in any application, I expect that setting to take effect,
this is not happening in Vista. I'll give you a perfect example,

1. Right click recycle bin
2. Locate mapped drive, this appear the second you map the drive to a
personal folder.
3. Click on "Do not move files to the Recycle Bin. Remove files
immediately when deleted."

The above does not get applied and the error continues. It's quite
obvious that the NAS does not support trashing to a recycle bin because
before it is mapped to the personal folder it works correctly and deleted
files are removed without being recycled, this is automatically configured
this way. Vista is trying to be clever and presuming that just because
it's a personal folder that I want Recycle bin capabilities, I don't it's
not working with this drive.

I've tested this in XP and it works just fine, no tedious error
messages appear as the recycle bin knows it can't work for that location.

Just to clarify this entire problem, this bug is not with mapping
network drives or referring to UNC locations, it only occurs once you have
mapped said location to a personal folder. Upon this mapping an entry for
the mapped drive / UNC appears in the recycle bin tree, all settings for
this location are completely ignored and it insists on creating a recycle
bin folder, and attemping to use it. Unmap the location as a personal
folder and the bug goes away.

I think this is just a symptom of the fact that Vista is trying to setup
offline files when you redirect a folder from your profile. Offline files in
Vista work differently than they did in XP. They are not compatible with
older versions of Samba. You could try disabling offline files but I don't
know if this will work with folders from your profile. I've never
experimented with it.

 

[FBonWin7x32]

why are you agonizing about this....?

don't you know that vista is the most buggy stupid OS ever made?

Format the darn thing and install XP or linux or macOSX!

Is that the stupid advice your supervisor tell you to give when you
don't know the real answer?
Or are you doing that on your own?

 

[Nick]

Hi

open windows explorer, right click on the computer icon and select "add
network location"

follow the steps to create an ftp folder...


you don't need a ftp client .. this acts as a normal folder although
thumbnails I think will not be available... im not sure

Yes this is not suitable, and mentioned elsewhere in this thread, thanks
anyway.

Nick.

 

[Nick]

Hi Kerry,

I've already explained the difference. The mapped drive only exists for
your account. It does not exist for system accounts. It may be a system
account that is accessing the NAS. Explicitly setting your account in the
cached credentials MAY allow the other accounts to access the NAS. It is
worth a try.

An entry is added there automatically when adding a network drive with
different credentials. It's been there the whole time, so unfortunately
that's not the resolution.

I think this is just a symptom of the fact that Vista is trying to setup
offline files when you redirect a folder from your profile. Offline files
in Vista work differently than they did in XP. They are not compatible
with older versions of Samba. You could try disabling offline files but I
don't know if this will work with folders from your profile. I've never
experimented with it.

I've already disabled offline files globally via the group policy editor
while I was fiddling. I don't think it's applied to this folder anyway as I
would have seen the little icon being added to the offline files.. Although
to be honest I don't really see the link between this and the recycle bin,
maybe I'm missing the point.

Disabling the recycle bin for that network drive should do just that,
disable the recycle bin. But the profile folder is causing the setting to
be overwritten, possibly (now this is just some wild assumption) that it's
inheriting the settings from the user profile root folders drive, but saying
that if I disable the recycle bin for that drive too the problem still
persists.

I'm sure there must be some way around this issue, other than the
obvious fix by Microsoft, but I'm not holding my breath on that of course.
The drive allows Windows, FTP and NFS access, FTP isn't in the equation, so
that just leaves NFS, but as I'm using Vista Business that would mean using
a 3rd party solution and tbh I have no idea what NFS is like to use.

Nick.

 

[Nick]

haha well said.

For some odd reason I think he/she actually thinks this is a chat room of
some kind, rather than being a managed Microsoft newsgroup where people come
and ask serious questions.

 

[B. Smith]

haha well said.

For some odd reason I think he/she actually thinks this is a chat room of
some kind, rather than being a managed Microsoft newsgroup where people
come and ask serious questions.

This is managed by MS ?
You gotta be kidding me.
You think that?
LOL.

Google usenet

 

[Nick]

Hi Kerry,

So I guess there's no chance of escellating this as a bug then? Or
should I be reporting it some other way?

Otherwise this thread has just stopped at a dead end and I have no
solution to the problem. Thanks for your time.

Nick.

 

[Nick]

I just got some weird behavour from this just then.

So here I am developing an application which is enumerating the drives of
the computer and trying to work out why it's missing the network drives from
the enumeration. So I removed the network drives and remapped them, voila
my application picked up the mapped drives to the NAS.

I went onto the drive and deleted a file files without any problems with the
recycle bin, but then the problem came back again, and I've not been able to
replicate this!

I thought for a moment then I had found a work around for this bug, I guess
not lol!

 

[Roy]

Has anyone found a fix for this problem?

I am seeing the same issue if I redirect the Pictures personal folder to a
mapped drive on my Verbatim Smartdisk NAS, which is also Unix based. I do not
have the issue if the Pictures folder is not targetted to the NAS drive.

I have to say I agree with the OP. This most definately seems to be a Vista
bug, previous occurences of this problem have been resolved in older OS's.

 

[Kerry Brown]

Did you read the article at the link I posted? What you are trying to do is
explicitly not supported in Vista. Support for this would have to come from
Verbatim. Here's a quote from the article.

"Reminder
File-level based storage on non-Windows devices is not supported by
Microsoft. Only devices that have been qualified by the Windows Hardware
Qualification Laboratory under the Server category are supported by
Microsoft for file-based storage. While Microsoft can enable this
deployment, the support is assumed 100% by the hardware device vendor in the
case of non-Windows devices."

and this

"We’ve seen numerous questions lately regarding the use of Offline Files
against a NAS device. Customers report that Windows XP clients work fine
against a particular NAS device but Windows Vista clients do not. The reason
for this difference is that Offline Files in Windows Vista relies on file
system behaviors that the XP implementation did not utilize, so if those
features are not correctly implemented by the server, Vista can encounter
problems."

If Verbatim doesn't update the NAS firmware so it works with Vista then what
you are trying to do won't work.