Vista overview

D

Danny

2001 was the year XP was released to much anticipation from the world of
technology. Here was Windows NT 5.1 finally bringing the stability and
robust performance of Windows 2000 and its predecessors to the home user.

The year is now 2007 and Microsoft are preparing to unveil its official
sequel, as it were, in Windows Vista. It will become fully available next
month, but having had a very lengthy preview of it, here are the strengths
and weaknesses which instantly spring out at you:



Strengths:



It looks fantastic. Yes, we all thought XP's basic theme was more 'Duplo'
than 'Designer', and Microsoft have clearly put a grandiose amount of effort
into developing a sophisticated, lean, and frankly sexy looking interface
for Vista. It is an incredibly pleasant operating system to look at, with
glamorous shadows and an overall sleek feel to it. This is a very nice
interface to look at.



Improved boot speed. It's by no means going at light-speed, but there is
definitely a noticeable reduction in boot time.



Feature-packed. This is without doubt the most endowed OS ever conceived. It
has everything and more.



Program menu scrolling. With the mousewheel. In XP to scroll the programs
menu one has to hover the cursor over the scroll bar at the top or bottom of
the menu. In Vista, it is fully mouse scrollable which is a big improvement.
You can now navigate to further down options almost instantly.



Information. You are simply TOLD more - more data when transferring files,
more information about space. It just keeps you far more informed of what is
going on in your PC.



Security: With the addition of advanced new security features designed to
shore up potential holes, and the User Account Control not to mention
Windows Defender; this is a very safe environment for computing.



Weaknesses:



Drivers. It goes without saving that at this early stage, there is a stark
lack of drivers for the OS. And plenty of the ones available are distinctly
flaky or poor, or even both.



Windows Mail. MS have replaced the stalwart and reliable Outlook Express
with a new email client. And, to put it mildly, it's atrocious. It feels
like an early beta, given a total lack of features and all round buggy
feeling. I feel this program deserves a fair bit of criticism all of its own
so here we are:



It is incredibly slow to load. Microsoft felt the bizarre desire
to dispense with OE .dbx files for storage, and replace them with individual
..eml files. So now instead of a neat single chunk large file for your inbox,
for example, you are blessed with thousands of crudely stored individual
email files. This causes the program to load slower than a ZX81.



There is no Windows Address Book/Contacts pane. It is replaced
by a 'contacts' button which brings up a messy looking window with a list of
the contacts you have (import these from WAB). To send an email involves a
right click on your choice then a choice of 'send email', as opposed to a
simple double click like in OE.



There is no way to stop the program automatically entering your inbox on
opening. Surely it's up to you if you want to go there straight off?



Whatever folder you end up in, the program automatically goes to
the first unread message and previews it. Again, you should have the choice.



As you can tell, there's a lot of work to be done to Windows Mail before it's
even vaguely feasible.



No 'up' button in Explorer. This is beyond ludicrous; going up a level now
involves knowing exactly where you are and choosing the next folder level up
in the address bar. I'd rather just press 'up' and always know I'm going up
a level no matter where I am than sit baffled choosing between folders.



Programs menu looks messy. Basically instead of having a tree of folders in
the programs menu, whereby you find your item, and let it fold out and allow
you to choose the exe it now has a group of brown explorer folders, which
when clicked on, collapse to reveal their contents. In the same column.
Might not sound much, but it just doesn't look right.



Add/remove in the control panel is gone, replaced by a really woeful
'programs' applet which seems to have taken all the versatility of
add/remove and thrown it in the bin.



A small quibble is the Play.com PS2/USB adaptor no longer works. At all.
This won't affect everyone, but for those who swear by this device, the lack
of its functionality almost renders the OS useless.



User Account Control. Until you figure out how to disable this, it's
security gone mad. Everything you do requires permission, and you have to
authorise it. While this is happening the whole screen darkens in a
foreboding manner. Having this kind of restriction would render the system
truly impotent. Thank goodness it can be disabled.



My Documents no longer exists, replaced by a strange hybrid of folders which
are all apparently separate. I can see no advantage in it.



The data transfer wizard (Or whatever it's called) is hopeless. It's
extremely hard to figure out exactly what you are transferring, and even
harder to make it transfer what you want. I tried to hand over my email
files, and it did indeed back up the identity. But the restoration didn't
work and I was left with no email at all to begin with. I had to manually
import the DBX files. Furthermore it point blank refused to not transfer My
Documents.



Plenty of programs are (predictably) not compatible with Vista, meaning if
you want to upgrade, you have to establish what works and what doesn't
before you make the change. In many cases it's a pointless upgrade to make.

One regularly receives a simple dialogue informing us the robust and
reliable firewall we've used for years will not work on this OS. And plenty
of examples of these incompatibilities exist. It surely matters not that it's
an 'accepted drawback of a new OS' - the fact remains it's simply not
practical for XP users with plenty of applications they consistently use to
upgrade if half of them will not work any longer.



Nvidia's control panel is shambolic - I don't strictly blame MS for this,
but it is nevertheless true that the new interface for the Vista drivers is
beyond terrible. Plus overclocking does not work. At all.



Opening an image takes a quite bizarre amount of time. Nothing occurs, then
20 seconds later it opens. Which invariably leads to the user believing the
first double click did not register, thus repeating it, then finding 2
copies open in quick succession 20 seconds later.



BSOD's are still in evidence. You would have thought after all this time,
12+ years, Microsoft would have figured out how to stabilise the OS beyond
being afflicted by the dreaded blue screen. Regrettably not. A flaky driver,
app or whatever can still easily bring the environment to its knees. There
really has to be a method of separating the operating environment from the
driver and app one.



Erroneous activity. There are now so many modules running all over the
place, that one regularly witnesses inexplicable activity dominating the
resources. Why on earth do MS feel the need to have so many processes
running at once?



Defrag contains no information at all - despite the strides made in other
areas, for some reason defrag now tells the user absolutely nothing about
what it is doing.







Ok, that's enough for now. I've said my piece, and I'm sure the pro-MS/Vista
folk will angrily oppose this post, and those disillusioned with it may
agree with some of it.



Also feel free to correct me if I have said anything outright incorrect.
This is just my opinion.



Regards all.
 
D

dirty old man

Your review pretty much sums it up to a T for me too!

dom

| 2001 was the year XP was released to much anticipation from the world of
| technology. Here was Windows NT 5.1 finally bringing the stability and
| robust performance of Windows 2000 and its predecessors to the home user.
|
| The year is now 2007 and Microsoft are preparing to unveil its official
| sequel, as it were, in Windows Vista. It will become fully available next
| month, but having had a very lengthy preview of it, here are the strengths
| and weaknesses which instantly spring out at you:
|
|
|
| Strengths:
|
|
|
| It looks fantastic. Yes, we all thought XP's basic theme was more 'Duplo'
| than 'Designer', and Microsoft have clearly put a grandiose amount of effort
| into developing a sophisticated, lean, and frankly sexy looking interface
| for Vista. It is an incredibly pleasant operating system to look at, with
| glamorous shadows and an overall sleek feel to it. This is a very nice
| interface to look at.
|
|
|
| Improved boot speed. It's by no means going at light-speed, but there is
| definitely a noticeable reduction in boot time.
|
|
|
| Feature-packed. This is without doubt the most endowed OS ever conceived. It
| has everything and more.
|
|
|
| Program menu scrolling. With the mousewheel. In XP to scroll the programs
| menu one has to hover the cursor over the scroll bar at the top or bottom of
| the menu. In Vista, it is fully mouse scrollable which is a big improvement.
| You can now navigate to further down options almost instantly.
|
|
|
| Information. You are simply TOLD more - more data when transferring files,
| more information about space. It just keeps you far more informed of what is
| going on in your PC.
|
|
|
| Security: With the addition of advanced new security features designed to
| shore up potential holes, and the User Account Control not to mention
| Windows Defender; this is a very safe environment for computing.
|
|
|
| Weaknesses:
|
|
|
| Drivers. It goes without saving that at this early stage, there is a stark
| lack of drivers for the OS. And plenty of the ones available are distinctly
| flaky or poor, or even both.
|
|
|
| Windows Mail. MS have replaced the stalwart and reliable Outlook Express
| with a new email client. And, to put it mildly, it's atrocious. It feels
| like an early beta, given a total lack of features and all round buggy
| feeling. I feel this program deserves a fair bit of criticism all of its own
| so here we are:
|
|
|
| It is incredibly slow to load. Microsoft felt the bizarre desire
| to dispense with OE .dbx files for storage, and replace them with individual
| .eml files. So now instead of a neat single chunk large file for your inbox,
| for example, you are blessed with thousands of crudely stored individual
| email files. This causes the program to load slower than a ZX81.
|
|
|
| There is no Windows Address Book/Contacts pane. It is replaced
| by a 'contacts' button which brings up a messy looking window with a list of
| the contacts you have (import these from WAB). To send an email involves a
| right click on your choice then a choice of 'send email', as opposed to a
| simple double click like in OE.
|
|
|
| There is no way to stop the program automatically entering your inbox on
| opening. Surely it's up to you if you want to go there straight off?
|
|
|
| Whatever folder you end up in, the program automatically goes to
| the first unread message and previews it. Again, you should have the choice.
|
|
|
| As you can tell, there's a lot of work to be done to Windows Mail before it's
| even vaguely feasible.
|
|
|
| No 'up' button in Explorer. This is beyond ludicrous; going up a level now
| involves knowing exactly where you are and choosing the next folder level up
| in the address bar. I'd rather just press 'up' and always know I'm going up
| a level no matter where I am than sit baffled choosing between folders.
|
|
|
| Programs menu looks messy. Basically instead of having a tree of folders in
| the programs menu, whereby you find your item, and let it fold out and allow
| you to choose the exe it now has a group of brown explorer folders, which
| when clicked on, collapse to reveal their contents. In the same column.
| Might not sound much, but it just doesn't look right.
|
|
|
| Add/remove in the control panel is gone, replaced by a really woeful
| 'programs' applet which seems to have taken all the versatility of
| add/remove and thrown it in the bin.
|
|
|
| A small quibble is the Play.com PS2/USB adaptor no longer works. At all.
| This won't affect everyone, but for those who swear by this device, the lack
| of its functionality almost renders the OS useless.
|
|
|
| User Account Control. Until you figure out how to disable this, it's
| security gone mad. Everything you do requires permission, and you have to
| authorise it. While this is happening the whole screen darkens in a
| foreboding manner. Having this kind of restriction would render the system
| truly impotent. Thank goodness it can be disabled.
|
|
|
| My Documents no longer exists, replaced by a strange hybrid of folders which
| are all apparently separate. I can see no advantage in it.
|
|
|
| The data transfer wizard (Or whatever it's called) is hopeless. It's
| extremely hard to figure out exactly what you are transferring, and even
| harder to make it transfer what you want. I tried to hand over my email
| files, and it did indeed back up the identity. But the restoration didn't
| work and I was left with no email at all to begin with. I had to manually
| import the DBX files. Furthermore it point blank refused to not transfer My
| Documents.
|
|
|
| Plenty of programs are (predictably) not compatible with Vista, meaning if
| you want to upgrade, you have to establish what works and what doesn't
| before you make the change. In many cases it's a pointless upgrade to make.
|
| One regularly receives a simple dialogue informing us the robust and
| reliable firewall we've used for years will not work on this OS. And plenty
| of examples of these incompatibilities exist. It surely matters not that it's
| an 'accepted drawback of a new OS' - the fact remains it's simply not
| practical for XP users with plenty of applications they consistently use to
| upgrade if half of them will not work any longer.
|
|
|
| Nvidia's control panel is shambolic - I don't strictly blame MS for this,
| but it is nevertheless true that the new interface for the Vista drivers is
| beyond terrible. Plus overclocking does not work. At all.
|
|
|
| Opening an image takes a quite bizarre amount of time. Nothing occurs, then
| 20 seconds later it opens. Which invariably leads to the user believing the
| first double click did not register, thus repeating it, then finding 2
| copies open in quick succession 20 seconds later.
|
|
|
| BSOD's are still in evidence. You would have thought after all this time,
| 12+ years, Microsoft would have figured out how to stabilise the OS beyond
| being afflicted by the dreaded blue screen. Regrettably not. A flaky driver,
| app or whatever can still easily bring the environment to its knees. There
| really has to be a method of separating the operating environment from the
| driver and app one.
|
|
|
| Erroneous activity. There are now so many modules running all over the
| place, that one regularly witnesses inexplicable activity dominating the
| resources. Why on earth do MS feel the need to have so many processes
| running at once?
|
|
|
| Defrag contains no information at all - despite the strides made in other
| areas, for some reason defrag now tells the user absolutely nothing about
| what it is doing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Ok, that's enough for now. I've said my piece, and I'm sure the pro-MS/Vista
| folk will angrily oppose this post, and those disillusioned with it may
| agree with some of it.
|
|
|
| Also feel free to correct me if I have said anything outright incorrect.
| This is just my opinion.
|
|
|
| Regards all.
|
|
 
R

RonK

I agree with that !
I've enjoyed getting back to XP and having everything work. I was running
RC2.
 
R

Rock

The year is now 2007 and Microsoft are preparing to unveil its official
sequel, as it were, in Windows Vista. It will become fully available next
month, but having had a very lengthy preview of it, here are the strengths
and weaknesses which instantly spring out at you:

Weaknesses:

Windows Mail. MS have replaced the stalwart and reliable Outlook Express
with a new email client. And, to put it mildly, it's atrocious. It feels
like an early beta, given a total lack of features and all round buggy
feeling. I feel this program deserves a fair bit of criticism all of its
own so here we are:

It is incredibly slow to load. Microsoft felt the bizarre desire to
dispense with OE .dbx files for storage, and replace them with individual
.eml files.

You have been told this before, I believe. The changes to the structure for
the files was made because in OE6 it was very prone to corruption. I
disagree that it's incredibly slow to load. I don't see much difference on
my system.
So now instead of a neat single chunk large file for your inbox, for
example, you are blessed with thousands of crudely stored individual email
files. This causes the program to load slower than a ZX81.

Again I don't see this slowness.
There is no way to stop the program automatically entering your inbox on
opening. Surely it's up to you if you want to go there straight off?

No big deal.
Whatever folder you end up in, the program automatically goes to the first
unread message and previews it. Again, you should have the choice.

It doesn't act that way on my system. It goes to the last message I was
viewing.
As you can tell, there's a lot of work to be done to Windows Mail before
it's even vaguely feasible.

"....vaguely feasible"? I disagree with your assessment. It could use
improvement, sure, and there are personal preferences a work here, but it
works fine.
No 'up' button in Explorer.

I don't understand why people persist in being bothered by this. Vista
comes with a much improved navigation system with the bread crumbs bar. It
does so much more than the up arrow. The Up arrow is akin to stone knives
and bear skins, though I must admit on a comely figure a bear skin has some
advantages.
This is beyond ludicrous; going up a level now involves knowing exactly
where you are and choosing the next folder level up in the address bar.
I'd rather just press 'up' and always know I'm going up a level no matter
where I am than sit baffled choosing between folders.

Add/remove in the control panel is gone, replaced by a really woeful
'programs' applet which seems to have taken all the versatility of
add/remove and thrown it in the bin.

What versatility is gone?

User Account Control. Until you figure out how to disable this, it's
security gone mad. Everything you do requires permission, and you have to
authorise it. While this is happening the whole screen darkens in a
foreboding manner. Having this kind of restriction would render the system
truly impotent. Thank goodness it can be disabled.

IMO one would be acting foolishly to disable UAC. Security is one of the
strengths of Vista. Once the system is set up you can easily run as a
limited user and the UAC prompts are very few. If I feel like doing a few
tasks that require more UAC prompts I'll login to an admin level account
where all that's needed is the acknowledgement for elevation. The screen
darkening is part of the shift to the secure desktop. With secure desktop
it has been shown malware could be interjected.

UAC certainly doesn't render the system "truly impotent". It actually gives
control to the user to decide what programs will run elevated and when. It
does take a paradigm shift in how you use the system but with the requisite
understanding you can learn to work with it.

Plenty of programs are (predictably) not compatible with Vista, meaning if
you want to upgrade, you have to establish what works and what doesn't
before you make the change. In many cases it's a pointless upgrade to
make.

And so? This has been the case with every new OS. Some programs work, some
don't, some will be updated and some you'll need to move to a different
program. Many programs do work in Vista.
One regularly receives a simple dialogue informing us the robust and
reliable firewall we've used for years will not work on this OS.

<snip>

Vista comes with a greatly improved firewall that will monitor both incoming
and outgoing traffic.
Nvidia's control panel is shambolic - I don't strictly blame MS for this

It's not MS's problem at all so they should have no blame. nVidia is
responsible for it.

Opening an image takes a quite bizarre amount of time. Nothing occurs,
then 20 seconds later it opens. Which invariably leads to the user
believing the first double click did not register, thus repeating it, then
finding 2 copies open in quick succession 20 seconds later.

I haven't seen this.
BSOD's are still in evidence. You would have thought after all this time,
12+ years, Microsoft would have figured out how to stabilise the OS beyond
being afflicted by the dreaded blue screen. Regrettably not. A flaky
driver, app or whatever can still easily bring the environment to its
knees. There really has to be a method of separating the operating
environment from the driver and app one.

There are many causes for BSODs. Flaky hardware, driver problems, memory.
Why would you expect them to go away? I've had one BSOD which was do to a
flaky beta driver for the sound card. That's not the OS's fault.
Erroneous activity.

What's "erroneous" about it? Yes Vista is very active. Just open
Performance and Reliability monitor and watch the disk activity even when
things are quiet. But that doesn't make it erroneous.
Defrag contains no information at all - despite the strides made in other
areas, for some reason defrag now tells the user absolutely nothing about
what it is doing.

So if you don't like that aspect of Defrag use a 3rd party defragger such as
Perfect Disk. MS has to tread a fine line with adding utilities.
Ok, that's enough for now. I've said my piece, and I'm sure the
pro-MS/Vista folk will angrily oppose this post, and those disillusioned
with it may agree with some of it.

I disagree with several of your arguements. It is certainly hard to
understand your logic in a couple of areas, as I listed above, but I am not
"angrily" opposing your post. Seems you must have come in here with an
agenda and a mind set to make that kind of statement.

Yes we all know about opinions and what they are like. ;-)
 
C

ColTom2

Hi:

Not having been a Vista Beta player I found your posting most interesting
to read and I appreciate you taking the time to compose what appears to be a
well thought out overview.

I have been interested in Vista from the start. In fact, I made the 9th
posting to this Newsgroup when it first started some months ago. In
comparing my Sony computer with the Vista upgrade requirements, I think that
your comments are right on target about driver's, other software etc. For
those of us contemplating and wanting to upgrade there are just too many
unknowns.

Even my Sony desktop, as well as other peripheral hardware, is unknown at
this point as to whether I will be able to upgrade. I have been unable to
find out if Sony is going to resolve my Sony MPEG Real Time encoder board
problem or not, as well as my HP 6110 Officejet All-In-one driver. The
manufacturers all say they will not comment until Vista is on the market
come January 30th. So here I sit waiting for some unknown point in time as
to whether I will be able to upgrade. The Sony encoder board problem is the
only problem that applicable my basic computer with MCE2005 installed. I
hope that it's not the mindset of some manufacturers not to resolve Vista
requirements in an effort to sale new hardware.

I found nothing in your comments that I in any manner take exception too.
In fact, I am going to take the liberty to forward them on to many of my
friends. Your overview is most timely and I for one appreciate your posting.

Thanks
 
D

Danny

Rock said:
You have been told this before, I believe.

All I was told was it was more robust. And was given a thrilling 60 hour
video explaining it all.
The changes to the structure for the files was made because in OE6 it was
very prone to corruption.

So you don't see any quarrel with a folder containing thousands upon
thousands of eml files?
I disagree that it's incredibly slow to load. I don't see much difference
on my system.

Well many, MANY others, myself included, do, and my PC is damn quick.
Again I don't see this slowness.

You're lucky, it seems.
No big deal.

Not to you. To me it's just another subtle example of the truly awful mess
of Windows Mail.
It doesn't act that way on my system. It goes to the last message I was
viewing.

Haha, that would be even WORSE!
I don't want any program telling me what I should be looking at. I will
choose, thanks very much.
"....vaguely feasible"? I disagree with your assessment.
Accepted.

It could use improvement, sure, and there are personal preferences a work
here, but it works fine.

Many disagree with this, myself included.
I don't understand why people persist in being bothered by this.

Because it's complexity for the sake of it imo.
It takes away reliable simplicity and effective function and replaces it
with unneeded intricacy.
What versatility is gone?

From what I can recall, there's no information about the programs, and the 4
or 5 buttons on the left giving various functionality are all gone.
There is also no 'show updates' button.
IMO one would be acting foolishly to disable UAC. Security is one of the
strengths of Vista. Once the system is set up you can easily run as a
limited user and the UAC prompts are very few.

Not for me. Everywhere I went I was being attacked by the tedious dialogue.
If I feel like doing a few tasks that require more UAC prompts I'll login
to an admin level account where all that's needed is the acknowledgement
for elevation. The screen darkening is part of the shift to the secure
desktop. With secure desktop it has been shown malware could be
interjected.

UAC certainly doesn't render the system "truly impotent".

Yes, it does. If you have no problem with being asked to confirm your every
move, that's your call.
It actually gives control to the user to decide what programs will run
elevated and when. It does take a paradigm shift in how you use the
system but with the requisite understanding you can learn to work with it.

That's tolerance, nothing else.
And I don't want to use a PC I merely have to 'put up' with.
And so? This has been the case with every new OS.

I don't deny this. But this is 6 years since the last one. It's the longest
gap afaik. There are more incompatibilities now than there were with XP or
any OS I can remember.
Some programs work, some don't, some will be updated and some you'll need
to move to a different program.

Put simply, I don't want to. And neither do millions of other. It's an
unnacceptable trade off.
Many programs do work in Vista.

And many, many do not.
<snip>

Vista comes with a greatly improved firewall that will monitor both
incoming and outgoing traffic.

I wouldn't use MS' own firewall if Gates himself paid me.
It's not MS's problem at all so they should have no blame. nVidia is
responsible for it.

I already said that.
I haven't seen this.

Again, consider yourself fortunate.
There are many causes for BSODs. Flaky hardware, driver problems, memory.
Why would you expect them to go away? I've had one BSOD which was do to a
flaky beta driver for the sound card. That's not the OS's fault.

It's not the OS's fault it allowed a driver to kill it?
Do you see what my argument is trying to say here?
What's "erroneous" about it? Yes Vista is very active. Just open
Performance and Reliability monitor and watch the disk activity even when
things are quiet. But that doesn't make it erroneous.

Surely seeing the likes of svchost (system fetch monitor) happily crunching
away at the HD for no conceivable reason is erroneous?
And it's by no means the only one. I just don't think 90% of the activity is
necessary.
So if you don't like that aspect of Defrag use a 3rd party defragger such
as Perfect Disk. MS has to tread a fine line with adding utilities.

And yet you happily support UAC (Which Kerio Personal Firewall uses (can be
disabled)) and Windows Firewall?

There's a distinct discrepancy there.
I disagree with several of your arguements.

Ditto my friend.
It is certainly hard to understand your logic in a couple of areas, as I
listed above, but I am not "angrily" opposing your post.

Some zealots on both sides will do exactly that. Some will aggressive agree,
and some will aggressively disagree.
Seems you must have come in here with an agenda and a mind set to make
that kind of statement.

As must you to have dismissed all the strengths I listed ;)

No, no agenda on my part - I just assumed because I was posting to a Vista
NG that some of supporters would come out in staunch defence of it and those
who hate it would strongly support what I said.
Yes we all know about opinions and what they are like. ;-)

Yup, Vista :)

(enjoyed your post btw - plenty to get my teeth into)
 
B

Bill Anderson

Danny said:
User Account Control. Until you figure out how to disable this, it's
security gone mad. Everything you do requires permission, and you have to
authorise it. While this is happening the whole screen darkens in a
foreboding manner. Having this kind of restriction would render the system
truly impotent. Thank goodness it can be disabled.

I agree with all your observations -- at least I agree with the ones I
understood. But here you touched on a question for which I haven't been
able to find an answer.

If I disable User Account Control, will Vista be less secure than my
up-to-date fully patched version of WinXP? I'll let User Account
Control run if I need it, but golly I'm so tired of having to choose to
"run as administrator" and give permission on top of permission just to
do something simple. Of course I have installed virus protection in
both Vista and XP. I use Norton Internet Security with virus protection
and firewall in XP and I use Avast virus protection with Vista firewall
in Vista. (I'm multi-booting.)

I can see how Vista is more secure than WinXP because of User Account
Control. But I have had no problems with security up to now in XP -- at
least none I couldn't deal with.

So my question isn't, "Is Vista more secure than XP?" I already know
that it is. My question is, "Is Vista just as secure as XP when I've
turned off User Account Control in Vista?"
 
K

Kerry Brown

I take exception to the UAC portion of your review. Rather than rendering
the system impotent UAC gives you more control over what programs have
system access as opposed to XP's impotent control when you are running as an
administrator.

There are other parts of the review I disagree with but they are a matter of
opinion and everyone's opinion is different.
 
D

Danny

Bill Anderson said:
I agree with all your observations -- at least I agree with the ones I
understood. But here you touched on a question for which I haven't been
able to find an answer.

If I disable User Account Control, will Vista be less secure than my
up-to-date fully patched version of WinXP?

It will be identical if you were to install Kerio Personal Firewall and
enable application blocking.
It is the same feature. Without that, yeah, it would be slightly less
secure, but if you have a decent firewall in the first place, plus NAT, the
chances are you could have Windows Me and you'd be pretty damn secure. Ok,
maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but intruders and hackers have to get IN in
the first place. If you stop them at that hurdle, this application blocking
UAC nonsense is completely futile imo.
I'll let User Account Control run if I need it, but golly I'm so tired of
having to choose to "run as administrator" and give permission on top of
permission just to do something simple. Of course I have installed virus
protection in both Vista and XP. I use Norton Internet Security with
virus protection and firewall in XP and I use Avast virus protection with
Vista firewall in Vista. (I'm multi-booting.)

I can see how Vista is more secure than WinXP because of User Account
Control. But I have had no problems with security up to now in XP -- at
least none I couldn't deal with.
Exactly.


So my question isn't, "Is Vista more secure than XP?" I already know that
it is. My question is, "Is Vista just as secure as XP when I've turned
off User Account Control in Vista?"

imo the extra security in Vista (UAC etc) is the equivalent of making a
steel wall 100ft thick instead of 80.
 
D

Danny

Kerry Brown said:
I take exception to the UAC portion of your review. Rather than rendering
the system impotent UAC gives you more control over what programs have
system access as opposed to XP's impotent control when you are running as
an administrator.

Appreciate your reply. Maybe the folk around here around aren't quite as
aggressive as I expected.

Of course, I totally disagree with you, but that's neither here nor there.
There are other parts of the review I disagree with but they are a matter
of opinion and everyone's opinion is different.

Hence my comment at the bottom. It is all just my own opinion.
 
G

Guest

Danny,

Yes, you are entitled to express your views.

Please reference your statement: "Also feel free to correct me if I have
said anything outright incorrect."

Seriously and politely, most everything that you shared your views is
entirely void of technical accuracy; and outright incorrect.

It seems as if you are trying to force Vista for becoming XP, give up
trying, because Vista will not allow you succeeding, even if you entirely
disable UAC; Vista is too intelligent for allowing compromise.

Suppose you might try deleting entries from the Registry, likely that's the
only thing you have missed. Just for the experience, please delete a few
entries from the Registry.

Serious question: *Whom* do you assign blame for not educating you for using
Vista and Windows Live Mail?

Respectfully expressed, simply, you have yet for learning how to use Vista
and all Vista's inherent Features; Vista, the Worlds most Secure
state-of-the-art OS.

Additionally, you have yet for learning how to use / navigate Windows Live
Mail; much improved functionality and Security, compared to OE.

What you described that you could not locate within Windows Live Mail, it's
there, you just over-looked what you were seeking, perhaps intentionally
because those Windows Live Mail feature are too obvious for locating.

Logic dictates that indeed you are fully aware of the non-sense and lack of
understanding for your using a state-of-the-art OS as Vista.

The logic is recognized from your stating that you disabled UAC, among other
expressions.

Hey, if you have no desire for using the Worlds Ultimate and most Secure OS
as Vista, simply, why are you using Vista?

Obviously, you respect Vista, or, you would not be using Vista.

Please continue using Vista, soon you will locate / identify Vista's
Security Features that you've missed / not yet located.

And then you'll greatly respect our Worlds Ultimate most Secure
state-of-the-art OS !!!

Next, you will be writing accurate fact filled messages worthy public ink /
print.

--
Firewall

Disclaimer:
Accept Vista as it is, or, Abandon Vista


Danny said:
2001 was the year XP was released to much anticipation from the world of
technology. Here was Windows NT 5.1 finally bringing the stability and
robust performance of Windows 2000 and its predecessors to the home user.

The year is now 2007 and Microsoft are preparing to unveil its official
sequel, as it were, in Windows Vista. It will become fully available next
month, but having had a very lengthy preview of it, here are the strengths
and weaknesses which instantly spring out at you:



Strengths:



It looks fantastic. Yes, we all thought XP's basic theme was more 'Duplo'
than 'Designer', and Microsoft have clearly put a grandiose amount of effort
into developing a sophisticated, lean, and frankly sexy looking interface
for Vista. It is an incredibly pleasant operating system to look at, with
glamorous shadows and an overall sleek feel to it. This is a very nice
interface to look at.



Improved boot speed. It's by no means going at light-speed, but there is
definitely a noticeable reduction in boot time.



Feature-packed. This is without doubt the most endowed OS ever conceived. It
has everything and more.



Program menu scrolling. With the mousewheel. In XP to scroll the programs
menu one has to hover the cursor over the scroll bar at the top or bottom of
the menu. In Vista, it is fully mouse scrollable which is a big improvement.
You can now navigate to further down options almost instantly.



Information. You are simply TOLD more - more data when transferring files,
more information about space. It just keeps you far more informed of what is
going on in your PC.



Security: With the addition of advanced new security features designed to
shore up potential holes, and the User Account Control not to mention
Windows Defender; this is a very safe environment for computing.



Weaknesses:



Drivers. It goes without saving that at this early stage, there is a stark
lack of drivers for the OS. And plenty of the ones available are distinctly
flaky or poor, or even both.



Windows Mail. MS have replaced the stalwart and reliable Outlook Express
with a new email client. And, to put it mildly, it's atrocious. It feels
like an early beta, given a total lack of features and all round buggy
feeling. I feel this program deserves a fair bit of criticism all of its own
so here we are:



It is incredibly slow to load. Microsoft felt the bizarre desire
to dispense with OE .dbx files for storage, and replace them with individual
..eml files. So now instead of a neat single chunk large file for your inbox,
for example, you are blessed with thousands of crudely stored individual
email files. This causes the program to load slower than a ZX81.



There is no Windows Address Book/Contacts pane. It is replaced
by a 'contacts' button which brings up a messy looking window with a list of
the contacts you have (import these from WAB). To send an email involves a
right click on your choice then a choice of 'send email', as opposed to a
simple double click like in OE.



There is no way to stop the program automatically entering your inbox on
opening. Surely it's up to you if you want to go there straight off?



Whatever folder you end up in, the program automatically goes to
the first unread message and previews it. Again, you should have the choice.



As you can tell, there's a lot of work to be done to Windows Mail before it's
even vaguely feasible.



No 'up' button in Explorer. This is beyond ludicrous; going up a level now
involves knowing exactly where you are and choosing the next folder level up
in the address bar. I'd rather just press 'up' and always know I'm going up
a level no matter where I am than sit baffled choosing between folders.



Programs menu looks messy. Basically instead of having a tree of folders in
the programs menu, whereby you find your item, and let it fold out and allow
you to choose the exe it now has a group of brown explorer folders, which
when clicked on, collapse to reveal their contents. In the same column.
Might not sound much, but it just doesn't look right.



Add/remove in the control panel is gone, replaced by a really woeful
'programs' applet which seems to have taken all the versatility of
add/remove and thrown it in the bin.



A small quibble is the Play.com PS2/USB adaptor no longer works. At all.
This won't affect everyone, but for those who swear by this device, the lack
of its functionality almost renders the OS useless.



User Account Control. Until you figure out how to disable this, it's
security gone mad. Everything you do requires permission, and you have to
authorise it. While this is happening the whole screen darkens in a
foreboding manner. Having this kind of restriction would render the system
truly impotent. Thank goodness it can be disabled.



My Documents no longer exists, replaced by a strange hybrid of folders which
are all apparently separate. I can see no advantage in it.



The data transfer wizard (Or whatever it's called) is hopeless. It's
extremely hard to figure out exactly what you are transferring, and even
harder to make it transfer what you want. I tried to hand over my email
files, and it did indeed back up the identity. But the restoration didn't
work and I was left with no email at all to begin with. I had to manually
import the DBX files. Furthermore it point blank refused to not transfer My
Documents.



Plenty of programs are (predictably) not compatible with Vista, meaning if
you want to upgrade, you have to establish what works and what doesn't
before you make the change. In many cases it's a pointless upgrade to make.

One regularly receives a simple dialogue informing us the robust and
reliable firewall we've used for years will not work on this OS. And plenty
of examples of these incompatibilities exist. It surely matters not that it's
an 'accepted drawback of a new OS' - the fact remains it's simply not
practical for XP users with plenty of applications they consistently use to
upgrade if half of them will not work any longer.



Nvidia's control panel is shambolic - I don't strictly blame MS for this,
but it is nevertheless true that the new interface for the Vista drivers is
beyond terrible. Plus overclocking does not work. At all.



Opening an image takes a quite bizarre amount of time. Nothing occurs, then
20 seconds later it opens. Which invariably leads to the user believing the
first double click did not register, thus repeating it, then finding 2
copies open in quick succession 20 seconds later.



BSOD's are still in evidence. You would have thought after all this time,
12+ years, Microsoft would have figured out how to stabilise the OS beyond
being afflicted by the dreaded blue screen. Regrettably not. A flaky driver,
app or whatever can still easily bring the environment to its knees. There
really has to be a method of separating the operating environment from the
driver and app one.



Erroneous activity. There are now so many modules running all over the
place, that one regularly witnesses inexplicable activity dominating the
resources. Why on earth do MS feel the need to have so many processes
running at once?



Defrag contains no information at all - despite the strides made in other
areas, for some reason defrag now tells the user absolutely nothing about
what it is doing.







Ok, that's enough for now. I've said my piece, and I'm sure the pro-MS/Vista
folk will angrily oppose this post, and those disillusioned with it may
agree with some of it.



Also feel free to correct me if I have said anything outright incorrect.
This is just my opinion.



Regards all.


to express your views.

Please reference your statement: "Also feel free to correct me if I have
said anything outright incorrect."

Seriously and politely, most everything that you shared your views is
entirely viod of technical accuracy.

It seems as if you are trying to force Vista for becoming XP, give up
trying, because Vista will not allow you succeeding, even if you entirely
disable UAC; Vista is too intelligent for allowing compromise.

Suppose you might try deleting entries from the Registry, likely that's the
only thing you have missed. Just for the experience, please delete a few
entries from the Registry.

Serious question: *Whom* do you assign blame for not educating you for using
Vista and Windows Live Mail?

Respectfully expressed, simply, you have yet for learning how to use Vista
and all Vista's inherent Features; Vista, the Worlds most Secure
state-of-the-art OS.

Additionally, you have yet for learning how to use / navigate Windows Live
Mail; much improved Security, compared to OE.

What you described that you could not locate within Windows Live Mail, it's
there you just over-looked what you were seeking, perhaps intentionally
because those feature are too obvious.

Logic dictates that indeed you are fully aware of the utter non-sense and
lack of understanding for using a state-of-the-art OS as Vista.

The logic is recognized from your stating that you disabled UAC.

Hey, if you have no desire for using the Worlds Ultimate and most Secure OS
as Vista, simply why are you using Vista?

Obviously, you respect Vista, or, you would not be using Vista.

Pleae continue using Vista, soon you will locate Vista's Security Features
that you've missed and then greatly respect our Worlds Ultimate most Secure
state-of-the-art OS !!!
 
D

Danny

FireWall2 said:
Danny,

Yes, you are entitled to express your views.

Please reference your statement: "Also feel free to correct me if I have
said anything outright incorrect."

Seriously and politely, most everything that you shared your views is
entirely void of technical accuracy; and outright incorrect.

It seems as if you are trying to force Vista for becoming XP, give up
trying, because Vista will not allow you succeeding, even if you entirely
disable UAC; Vista is too intelligent for allowing compromise.

Suppose you might try deleting entries from the Registry, likely that's
the
only thing you have missed. Just for the experience, please delete a few
entries from the Registry.

Serious question: *Whom* do you assign blame for not educating you for
using
Vista and Windows Live Mail?

Respectfully expressed, simply, you have yet for learning how to use Vista
and all Vista's inherent Features; Vista, the Worlds most Secure
state-of-the-art OS.

Additionally, you have yet for learning how to use / navigate Windows Live
Mail; much improved functionality and Security, compared to OE.

What you described that you could not locate within Windows Live Mail,
it's
there, you just over-looked what you were seeking, perhaps intentionally
because those Windows Live Mail feature are too obvious for locating.

Logic dictates that indeed you are fully aware of the non-sense and lack
of
understanding for your using a state-of-the-art OS as Vista.

The logic is recognized from your stating that you disabled UAC, among
other
expressions.

Hey, if you have no desire for using the Worlds Ultimate and most Secure
OS
as Vista, simply, why are you using Vista?

Obviously, you respect Vista, or, you would not be using Vista.

Please continue using Vista, soon you will locate / identify Vista's
Security Features that you've missed / not yet located.

And then you'll greatly respect our Worlds Ultimate most Secure
state-of-the-art OS !!!

Next, you will be writing accurate fact filled messages worthy public ink
/
print.

Fantastic. The first zealot. Nice to hear from you sir.
 
D

Danny

FireWall2 said:
Danny,
Hey, if you have no desire for using the Worlds Ultimate and most Secure
OS
as Vista, simply, why are you using Vista?

Obviously, you respect Vista, or, you would not be using Vista.

Indeed I would not. I'm back on XP. Good day :)

(I didn't actually read your waffle the first time, hence why I am replying
again, and noticing the above comment)
 
K

Kerry Brown

The point is that running XP as an administrator is not secure. You have
been lucky that you haven't run up against a zero day exploit yet. This is
an exploit that hasn't been patched and none of the anti-malware programs
are aware of yet. In Vista UAC should theoretically catch these. I say
theoretically because Vista hasn't been around long enough and hasn't really
been targeted yet. In a year or so we should have a better idea how
effective UAC is at stopping previously unknown attacks. We know that XP is
pretty much defenseless.
 
K

Kerry Brown

It was a well done overview. We don't agree, but you stated your points and
made sense. That's what many of the people who either don't like Vista or
evangelize it don't take the time to do. Everyone has an opinion and the
right to express it.
 
C

CZ

Danny:

Some of your weaknesses are incorrect per my experience. Rather than
respond specifically, I will say that with my setup, I can multiple boot
between Vista RTM, XP Home and XP Pro, and I rarely boot into XP.
I find Vista RTM with Windows Mail, User Account Control, etc., to be an
excellent op system.
technology. Here was Windows NT 5.1 finally bringing the stability and
robust performance of Windows 2000 and its predecessors to the home user.

The year is now 2007 and Microsoft are preparing to unveil its official
sequel, as it were, in Windows Vista. It will become fully available next
month, but having had a very lengthy preview of it, here are the strengths
and weaknesses which instantly spring out at you:

Strengths:

It looks fantastic. Yes, we all thought XP's basic theme was more 'Duplo'
than 'Designer', and Microsoft have clearly put a grandiose amount of effort
into developing a sophisticated, lean, and frankly sexy looking interface
for Vista. It is an incredibly pleasant operating system to look at, with
glamorous shadows and an overall sleek feel to it. This is a very nice
interface to look at.

Improved boot speed. It's by no means going at light-speed, but there is
definitely a noticeable reduction in boot time.

Feature-packed. This is without doubt the most endowed OS ever conceived. It
has everything and more.

Program menu scrolling. With the mousewheel. In XP to scroll the programs
menu one has to hover the cursor over the scroll bar at the top or bottom of
the menu. In Vista, it is fully mouse scrollable which is a big improvement.
You can now navigate to further down options almost instantly.

Information. You are simply TOLD more - more data when transferring files,
more information about space. It just keeps you far more informed of what is
going on in your PC.

Security: With the addition of advanced new security features designed to
shore up potential holes, and the User Account Control not to mention
Windows Defender; this is a very safe environment for computing.

Weaknesses:

Drivers. It goes without saving that at this early stage, there is a stark
lack of drivers for the OS. And plenty of the ones available are distinctly
flaky or poor, or even both.

Windows Mail. MS have replaced the stalwart and reliable Outlook Express
with a new email client. And, to put it mildly, it's atrocious. It feels
like an early beta, given a total lack of features and all round buggy
feeling. I feel this program deserves a fair bit of criticism all of its own
so here we are:

It is incredibly slow to load. Microsoft felt the bizarre desire
to dispense with OE .dbx files for storage, and replace them with individual
..eml files. So now instead of a neat single chunk large file for your inbox,
for example, you are blessed with thousands of crudely stored individual
email files. This causes the program to load slower than a ZX81.

There is no Windows Address Book/Contacts pane. It is replaced
by a 'contacts' button which brings up a messy looking window with a list of
the contacts you have (import these from WAB). To send an email involves a
right click on your choice then a choice of 'send email', as opposed to a
simple double click like in OE.

There is no way to stop the program automatically entering your inbox on
opening. Surely it's up to you if you want to go there straight off?

Whatever folder you end up in, the program automatically goes to
the first unread message and previews it. Again, you should have the choice.

As you can tell, there's a lot of work to be done to Windows Mail before
it's
even vaguely feasible.

No 'up' button in Explorer. This is beyond ludicrous; going up a level now
involves knowing exactly where you are and choosing the next folder level up
in the address bar. I'd rather just press 'up' and always know I'm going up
a level no matter where I am than sit baffled choosing between folders.

Programs menu looks messy. Basically instead of having a tree of folders in
the programs menu, whereby you find your item, and let it fold out and allow
you to choose the exe it now has a group of brown explorer folders, which
when clicked on, collapse to reveal their contents. In the same column.
Might not sound much, but it just doesn't look right.

Add/remove in the control panel is gone, replaced by a really woeful
'programs' applet which seems to have taken all the versatility of
add/remove and thrown it in the bin.

A small quibble is the Play.com PS2/USB adaptor no longer works. At all.
This won't affect everyone, but for those who swear by this device, the lack
of its functionality almost renders the OS useless.

User Account Control. Until you figure out how to disable this, it's
security gone mad. Everything you do requires permission, and you have to
authorise it. While this is happening the whole screen darkens in a
foreboding manner. Having this kind of restriction would render the system
truly impotent. Thank goodness it can be disabled.

My Documents no longer exists, replaced by a strange hybrid of folders which
are all apparently separate. I can see no advantage in it.

The data transfer wizard (Or whatever it's called) is hopeless. It's
extremely hard to figure out exactly what you are transferring, and even
harder to make it transfer what you want. I tried to hand over my email
files, and it did indeed back up the identity. But the restoration didn't
work and I was left with no email at all to begin with. I had to manually
import the DBX files. Furthermore it point blank refused to not transfer My
Documents.

Plenty of programs are (predictably) not compatible with Vista, meaning if
you want to upgrade, you have to establish what works and what doesn't
before you make the change. In many cases it's a pointless upgrade to make.

One regularly receives a simple dialogue informing us the robust and
reliable firewall we've used for years will not work on this OS. And plenty
of examples of these incompatibilities exist. It surely matters not that
it's
an 'accepted drawback of a new OS' - the fact remains it's simply not
practical for XP users with plenty of applications they consistently use to
upgrade if half of them will not work any longer.

Nvidia's control panel is shambolic - I don't strictly blame MS for this,
but it is nevertheless true that the new interface for the Vista drivers is
beyond terrible. Plus overclocking does not work. At all.

Opening an image takes a quite bizarre amount of time. Nothing occurs, then
20 seconds later it opens. Which invariably leads to the user believing the
first double click did not register, thus repeating it, then finding 2
copies open in quick succession 20 seconds later.

BSOD's are still in evidence. You would have thought after all this time,
12+ years, Microsoft would have figured out how to stabilise the OS beyond
being afflicted by the dreaded blue screen. Regrettably not. A flaky driver,
app or whatever can still easily bring the environment to its knees. There
really has to be a method of separating the operating environment from the
driver and app one.

Erroneous activity. There are now so many modules running all over the
place, that one regularly witnesses inexplicable activity dominating the
resources. Why on earth do MS feel the need to have so many processes
running at once?

Defrag contains no information at all - despite the strides made in other
areas, for some reason defrag now tells the user absolutely nothing about
what it is doing.

Ok, that's enough for now. I've said my piece, and I'm sure the pro-MS/Vista
folk will angrily oppose this post, and those disillusioned with it may
agree with some of it.

Also feel free to correct me if I have said anything outright incorrect.
This is just my opinion.
 
C

CZ

Defrag contains no information at all - despite the strides made in other
areas, for some reason defrag now tells the user absolutely nothing about
what it is doing.

Danny:

What do you call the following capture?

C:\Windows\system32>defrag c: -w -V
Windows Disk Defragmenter
Copyright (c) 2006 Microsoft Corp.

Defragmentation report for volume C: VistaTest

Volume size = 24.41 GB
Cluster size = 4 KB
Used space = 13.14 GB
Free space = 11.27 GB
Percent free space = 46 %

File fragmentation
Percent file fragmentation = 2 %
Total movable files = 43,165
Average file size = 187 KB
Total fragmented files = 404
Total excess fragments = 2,898
Average fragments per file = 1.08
Total unmovable files = 41

Free space fragmentation
Free space = 11.27 GB
Total free space extent = 3,181
Average free space per extent = 4 MB
Largest free space extent = 9.29 GB

Folder fragmentation
Total folders = 7,541
Fragmented folders = 19
Excess folder fragments = 132

Master File Table (MFT) fragmentation
Total MFT size = 42 MB
MFT record count = 43,268
Percent MFT in use = 99
Total MFT fragments = 4

Note: On NTFS volumes, file fragments larger than 64MB are not included
in t
he fragmentation statistics

Defragmentation report for volume C: VistaTest

Volume size = 24.41 GB
Cluster size = 4 KB
Used space = 12.06 GB
Free space = 12.36 GB
Percent free space = 50 %

File fragmentation
Percent file fragmentation = 0 %
Total movable files = 43,165
Average file size = 187 KB
Total fragmented files = 0
Total excess fragments = 0
Average fragments per file = 1.00
Total unmovable files = 41

Free space fragmentation
Free space = 12.36 GB
Total free space extent = 4,442
Average free space per extent = 3 MB
Largest free space extent = 9.09 GB

Folder fragmentation
Total folders = 7,541
Fragmented folders = 1
Excess folder fragments = 0

Master File Table (MFT) fragmentation
Total MFT size = 42 MB
MFT record count = 43,268
Percent MFT in use = 99
Total MFT fragments = 4
 
T

thetruthhurts

Agreed generally. Your bias is pretty obvious when you make
statements like the one below and then on the downside list 10 nits
separately.

 
G

Guest

Hello ColTom2,

Well though-out response for Danny's Post, although Danny determined it best
for his computer usage experience, for not using Vista, seems Vista is just a
bit too advanced for Danny.

The troubles that you described using Sony (and they are good computers) is
a result from using OEM Software, instead of using Genuine Microsoft Products.

If you used *only* Genuine Microsoft Software, never would you encounter the
conflicts that you described.

There is a reason the military and nuclear submarines use Genuine Microsoft
Software; although, if you're not a military man, the previous statement is
meaningless for you.

Thank you for your comments describing the difference between OEM Software,
and Genuine Microsoft Software !!!

Respectfully,
 

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