Vista GUI

E

Ed Dixon

Having played with Vista only a short time, a couple things come to mind
about the GUI changes:



1.. It's more difficult to use. Most of the common things I do in Windows
take 2-3 times more mouse clicks in Vista than any previous version of
Windows.


2.. Security is too tight. You can't even run a control panel applet, as
Administrator, without a security warning to allow the action.


3.. Windows Explorer is a mess. It crashes multiple times in simple
sessions. Just getting a file listing of a directory is a major
undertaking.


4.. The lack of TweakUI tools makes life for experienced users much more
difficult.


It's a dog to install or run. My overall impression is that this is not a
Beta level product, but something more like what one sees with early Alpha
level products.



Ed
 
T

Tim S.

Ed, you did not say what version of Vista you are running. Vista has made
great strides since the first releases and will make many more before it is
a full featured and robust OS. It will be one of the most secured OS out on
the market.
It is in many stages of testing, and if you think about it, a few extra
clicks of the mouse to insure security on your system isn't so bad, compared
to the alternative of someone hacking into your system and causing all sorts
of havoc.
The issues you have brought up will be addressed and streamlined and fixed
as needed, so stay tuned and don't get to frustrated, it will get better.

Regards
 
A

Andre Da Costa [Extended64]

My personal answers in line:
Ed Dixon said:
Having played with Vista only a short time, a couple things come to mind
about the GUI changes:
1.. It's more difficult to use. Most of the common things I do in
Windows take 2-3 times more mouse clicks in Vista than any previous
version of Windows.
* Could you specify for example? I have 3 columns of applications in the all
programs group on XP, it takes 1 to 2 mins to find something, Vista, just
type in the name of the app and it pops up on the new start menu. Filtered
search integrated into every explorer makes it really easy to find files.
2.. Security is too tight. You can't even run a control panel applet, as
Administrator, without a security warning to allow the action.
*This is still a work in progress and you should see changes to it as the
beta progresses, you can currently disable UAP (User account protect) Win
key + R > type in MSCONFIG > Tools (tab) > scroll down > select Disable UAP
launch > restart system and it will not bother you again. Do this only for
convenience though in the beta, as it is not the expected behaviour in the
final release. Ironic how some of us consider XP to be too insecure, but we
are calling Vista too secure. LOL!
3.. Windows Explorer is a mess. It crashes multiple times in simple
sessions. Just getting a file listing of a directory is a major
undertaking.
* List view is coming back and there should be some additional changes by RC
1 :)
4.. The lack of TweakUI tools makes life for experienced users much more
difficult.
* I am sure the folks who work on Tweak UI and other Windows Power Toys as a
part time project will be releasing updates for Vista as soon as it RTMs or
some time after.* It's a dog to install or run. My overall impression is that this is not a
Beta level product, but something more like what one sees with early Alpha
level products.

*I agree, but it is still beta 1 regardless you see that build tag saying
BETA 2, optimization of performance will increase and the installation time
will be reduced by BETA 2 going forward.* You can send in your sentiments here:
http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=55160
 
E

Ed Dixon

Running 5308.

My current reaction to Vista is one giant step backwards. Maybe it will
improve with other releases, but currently it's something I would recommend
to customers to avoid at all cost.


Ed
 
E

Ed Dixon

In reply.

1. Mouse clicks. Display properties is one example. You want to change the
resolution or some other display setting. Before right mouse clock, select
tab, and make changes. Vista involves more steps. Almost everything in
control panel is this way.

2. Security. My thought would have been to disable UAP (or whatever else is
needed) and default to past approach. Then provide an info popup with
summary info about new options in this area that offer increased
security/restrictions.

I used to work with the Air Force on software efforts. An Air Force General
there had a very good comment about computer security. His words were "The
greatest threat to security is denial of service". What he meant was that
security changes that made the system harder for the rank and file to use
posed a greater threat in preventing them from doing their jobs than the
efforts of actual bad folks.

3. Windows Explorer. I find it amazing that they released anything with
it's current state. it's just too central to Windows to have the problems
it has.

4. TweakUI. Figured this one was coming. However I would have expected
more at this point.

I remember seeing Win95 in the early Beta days. It was much closer to
something useable than what I see here. Same for Win98, Win2000, XP, 2003,
etc. This one is just way off, which might have something to do with the
news items about Vista being postponed until 2007.

Ed
 
Y

Yeff

4. TweakUI. Figured this one was coming. However I would have expected
more at this point.

The PowerToys are things that Microsoft programmers do on their own
time. They were never officially supported by Microsoft so you
shouldn't expect to have them as part of the base OS.
 
F

Frank

Ed said:
Running 5308.

My current reaction to Vista is one giant step backwards. Maybe it will
improve with other releases, but currently it's something I would recommend
to customers to avoid at all cost.

You ain't alone on that one!
Frank
 
T

Tom Lake

Ironic how some of us consider XP to be too insecure, but we
are calling Vista too secure. LOL!

I want it to be secure from outsiders, not from the person sitting
at the keyboard!

Tom Lake
 
P

Puppy Breath

I had the same impression at first. But after a few weeks of using Vista
navigation, I'm wondering how I ever got along without it. I hate going back
to XP now because I can get to everything and anything much more quickly and
easily in Vista. The old way of doing things, where everything is based on
"location", is ancient history from here on out. And I say "good riddance",
now that I understand how to get around in Vista.

You'll feel the same way in a few weeks. (This coming from a guy who, like
most people here, have been doing this stuff since DOS days).
 
E

Ed Dixon

Keeping Vista running here at all has been hard. My primary test machine no
longer boots vista correctly and the last two attempts to reinstall failed
for unspecified reasons.


New concepts for navigation are not a new thing. However closing down the
old ones is usually a bad idea and simply becomes a reason not to upgrade.


I do lots of Windows support work as well as development. I divide users
into three groups. Group 1 are novices who may not have noticed that a mouse
has more than one button. Group 2 are seasoned Windows users and can get
around and do most things easily. Group 3 are experts.


The world is full of group 1. Group 2 is increasing in size, but slowly and
group 3 is tiny (percentage wise). Vista will be rejected by group 1 in
anything like it's current form. Group 3 may like or hate it, but can deal
with it either way. Group 2 opinions will vary based on their jobs.

Ed
 
E

Ed Dixon

So the outsider has got to the PC and logged in. These mouse click
inefficiencies will not deter the outside from doing what they, only taking
a few more mouse clicks.

Once someone is in, they're in. These new things offer no security at that
point, only more work. One cannot solve physical security with inefficient
design.

Ed
 
F

Frank

Puppy said:
I had the same impression at first. But after a few weeks of using Vista
navigation, I'm wondering how I ever got along without it. I hate going
back to XP now because I can get to everything and anything much more
quickly and easily in Vista. The old way of doing things, where
everything is based on "location", is ancient history from here on out.
And I say "good riddance", now that I understand how to get around in
Vista.

You'll feel the same way in a few weeks. (This coming from a guy who,
like most people here, have been doing this stuff since DOS days).
In a few weeks? I don't think so! I've been banging away with these
builds for what...over a year now and I still don't get what it is the
heads of development are trying to do.
If you remember, going from Dos to 3 to 95 (A,B,C) to 98 to 98SE to ME
to 2K to XP/MCE everything go easier and simpler with each new release.
I don't see the human logic in how you navigate in Vista. It's not
there. If I'm going to volume license Vista for my company, it can't be
like it is now. I won't take it. There is absolutely nothing
compelling, right now, in Vista, that warrants shelling out thousands of
$'s for it in my view. And seeing as how I own a marketing company, I
kinda have an professional idea of how the buying public tends to spend
their hard earned dollars. After all, it's my job.
I'm hoping things will change. Maybe BG will light a fire under the team
or SB will throw some chairs around, pound on the desk and maybe kick
some ass.
I hope!
Frank
 
J

John Jay Smith

you have to analyze? and get lost in the details?

No thanks!

Let me give it to you simple and clear:
the "User Experience" stinks!
 
Z

Zack Whittaker

I think it rocks! Some of the dialogs are simplified so much more now - I've
literally just encountered a "Desktop Composition" message with 3 options -
all laid out easily and simply, specific but easy to understand :blush:)

--
Zack Whittaker
» ZackNET Enterprises: www.zacknet.co.uk
» MSBlog on ResDev: www.msblog.org
» Vista Knowledge Base: www.vistabase.co.uk
» This mailing is provided "as is" with no warranties, and confers no
rights. All opinions expressed are those of myself unless stated so, and not
of my employer, best friend, Ghandi, my mother or my cat. Glad we cleared
that up!

--: Original message follows :--
 
A

Andre Da Costa [Extended64]

The changes made to explorer are tremedous in their advantages, you don't
have to be opening dialogs, its right there in front of you, features like
Preview Pane, Explorer Favorite links (improved in 5365), bread crumb menus
which makes it easier to navigate through folders. The built in search which
makes it way easier to find a file. In XP it could have taken forever to
find a file using the old search technology. Now with the new fast search
technology, its a few seconds.

More secure, UAP (still a work in progress) is really a needed feature in
Windows, people need to be protected from themselves, especially with the
continuous barrage of malicious data on the net, UAP prevents you from
installing mistakes on your computer that is commonly happening on XP and
prior versions of Windows. Internet Explorer Protected Mode makes your web
browsing experience safer, AntiPhishing sites can't easily fool you, you
can't easily get infected with Malware because AntiMalware protection is
built right in, plus its part of the OS with Windows Defender. Internet
Explorer is easier to use, features such as TABs, Tab Gallery, subscribing
to your favorite websites are built right in.

Built in collaboration makes it easier to connect up to other people in a
ad-hoc way, you are able to share data easily and more securely. Connecting
to devices is easier, plug it in and it works, (still a work in progress,
but its getting) there. Things importing and managing your photographs,
finding things to do with them, whether its tagging for easier finding,
making a DVD, viewing a slide. Features like burning a DVD, backing up data,
its easy and its built, its still rough around edges, but its getting there,
XP was rough around the edges during this stage of development. But just
knowing its in there, giving you a better more complete out of the box
experience is what really makes Vista really compelling for me personally.

Things like managing your music is way cool in Vista, the new Album preview
feature with the built in search capabilities makes listening to your music
a great experience. Managing e-mail is easier, searching through tonnes of
e-mail again is easier because of the new built in search capabilities,
finding helpful answers in newsgroups is easier because of built in
community feature. AntiPhishing is built in which makes it a safer
experience, new spam filter filter makes cleaning your inbox a rear
occasion, migrating your mail box is easier because of the new Mail store.

Vista will be easier to deploy, this is still a work in progress, but trust
me, its getting there, and I am sure by RTM we will be surprised and say we
were wrong. The new end to end experiences that are being built will surely
make us think so, deploying in multilingual environments or sites will be
easier for companies, BitLocker, Virtual PC Express, Unix Subsystem, (Tablet
PC, 64-Bit, Media Center) bringing it mainstream and opening peoples eyes to
the possibilities of these awesome features. Features like Sidebar, which is
about presenting bits of real time information to people when they need it.

I have not even tapped into the Developer opportunities, to build richer,
more compelling, connected, easier applications with tools such as Windows
Presentation and Communication Foundation. There is so much in Vista, and
last but not least, the clean user interface that is presented through
Windows Aero. I think Glass is sexy stuff, it still needs work especially
things like the ability to differenciate Inactive and Active windows, but I
am sure those are being worked on. There is so much I could post but I am
tired. But I just want to say look at the opportunities, and stop looking at
the temporary issues that will be fixed as development progresses towards
RTM.
--
--
Andre
Windows Connected | http://www.windowsconnected.com
Extended64 | http://www.extended64.com
Blog | http://www.extended64.com/blogs/andre
http://spaces.msn.com/members/adacosta
 
P

Pierre Szwarc

Do a Google search for TweakVista ;))
--
Pierre Szwarc
Paris, France
PGP key ID 0x75B5779B
------------------------------------------------
Multitasking: Reading in the bathroom !
------------------------------------------------

"Ed Dixon" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de (e-mail address removed)...
| Having played with Vista only a short time, a couple things come to mind
| about the GUI changes:
[snip]
| 4.. The lack of TweakUI tools makes life for experienced users much more
| difficult.
|
|
| It's a dog to install or run. My overall impression is that this is not a
| Beta level product, but something more like what one sees with early Alpha
| level products.
 
R

Robert Moir

John said:
its stinks big time..

And if it ever gets better it will be because of people like Ed enumerating
their concerns, and not because of folks typing "it stinks" every time they
see an opportunity.


--
--
Rob Moir, Microsoft MVP
Blog Site - http://www.robertmoir.com
Virtual PC 2004 FAQ - http://www.robertmoir.co.uk/win/VirtualPC2004FAQ.html
I'm always surprised at "professionals" who STILL have to be asked "Have you
checked (event viewer / syslog)".
 

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