Upgrade

[Guest]

I have xp on HD C(master) and vista RC2 on HD D(slave). The dual boot is
working fine. I want to upgrade to vista Home Premium and install it on HD
D.If I do the following, will it work?
-use windows file transfer wizard to save my RC2 settings and files to
external HD, boot up to xp, Insert the VHP upgrade DVD(not full version),
choose to install VHP on drive D, Install the applications, Transfer the
files and settings from the external HD.
- Do I have to choose custom install, format RC2 and then upgrade install VHP

 

[John Barnes]

Sounds like a good plan. You didn't say which version of XP, Pro won't
work, Home will. And yes you have to do a custom install, and it would be a
good idea to format the drive.

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

You may not be able to do that. I have not seen any reports on how the
upgrade edition works when you do not want to install to the currently
running OS. I don't know if the custom option will allow you install to D:
when you have launched Setup from the desktop on C:. A full edition would,
of course, but I haven't heard if an ugrade edition is limited to the OS
that qualified for the upgrade. I would hold off until others confirm this
kind of installation one way or the other.

 

[Guest]

Here is another scenario I am thinking. If I upgrade the existing xp home
(drive C) to VHP using the VHP upgrade DVD, then can I install xp home on
drive D by booting from xp cd after the vista installation?

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

You need to install the oldest operating system first. There are many
articles on how to repair after installing the older one second so that it
will boot, but there is some work involoved. I can't think of anything you
would gain by doing that, however. If you use the XP as the qualifying OS
for an upgrade to Vista you may not continue to use the XP after the upgrade
because the XP license is then tied to the Vista upgrade edition license.
That's why upgrades are cheaper than full editions.

I don't recommend a dual boot setup with XP and Vista in any case because
booting into XP destroys Vista's shadow copies, backup files, and system
restore points. Since you are considering VHP you will not have BitLocker
to protect the Vista volume from XP's VSS driver (which causes the problem).
I suggest you simply upgrade XP to VHP and go with that or buy a full
edition of VHP and use the XP on a different computer (if the XP is a retail
edition).

 

[Rick Rogers]

You could, but it will overwrite the bootloader with XP's and you will then
need to reboot the Vista DVD and run a startup repair.

By the by, when you use an upgrade license, the license of the upgraded OS
becomes part of it. An upgrade license is cheaper because it incorporates a
license you already own. What this means is that when you upgrade XP to
Vista with an upgrade license, XP's license becomes part of the upgrade.
Under the license agreement, you can no longer use the XP license for a
stand-alone install. Technically though, there is nothing to stop you from
doing it as you propose.

--
Best of Luck,

Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP

Windows help - www.rickrogers.org

 

[John Barnes]

Seems like I read that the clean install would be available. Would be quite
restrictive if it couldn't, as many don't want all of the old programs and
other items carried over to the new system. I do agree that it would be
best to wait and watch postings here and that the license for XP home would
not allow dual booting with that system. I do wonder how many are going to
have space problems with the upgrade due to all of the old files retained
during and after the upgrade to be used in the restore if it fails. Also, I
am with you 100% recommending that they make a full backup of the XP system
before the upgrade. Even when I was able to get one to complete, I never
had a usable system after and always ended up with a clean install.

 

[Guest]

Thank you all for your helpful ideas.
If I do the following, will it work
-Remove the drive C (xp home) physically
-Connect the current drive D(RC2) as a single drive. This will be now drive C
- Boot with VHP DVD, format and custom install VHP. Use xp cd to prove prior
OS
-Reconnect physically the drive(xp home) as slave. This will now be drive D
-Repair install xp home on drive D using xp cd
-Use dual boot with vista on drive C and xp home on drive D
-
-

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

No. Vista Setup does not check for a cd. This is a change from previous
editions of Windows. You will not be asked to insert the cd to verify
qualification for upgrade pricing. Instead, Vista Setup will check for a
running copy of Windows that is eligible for upgrade. That Windows must be
Win2k, XP SP2, or XP Pro x64 and if XP it must be activated. When you boot
with a Vista x86 dvd and enter an upgrade edition product key you will be
instructed to reboot the machine and run Setup from the desktop of the
legacy OS. Obvioulsy, if you disconnect the drive with XP on it you cannot
do that.

 

[Bill Anderson]

I don't recommend a dual boot setup with XP and Vista in any case
because booting into XP destroys Vista's shadow copies, backup files,
and system restore points.

I have a quad-boot system: Win2K, two WinXPs, and Vista. I use an 80
gigabyte hard drive for my four OS partitions, keeping my data files
separate on a single 250 gigabyte hard drive. As an example of what I
mean, I've put my email files in a single directory on the G: data drive
and I've pointed Thunderbird to them from all four of the OS
installations. So when I receive an email while running Vista, I can
read and respond to the same email later when running XP. Same for
Office documents and other things. I've set up all four OSs to think
they have exclusive access to my data. In addition to all this, my
system also has a RAID pair of two 500 gigabyte drives that I use for
video editing and video storage.

Win2K is on C:, the two XPs are on D: and E: and Vista is on F:. I
discovered that when I installed Vista Business on F: from within one of
my XP installations (not by booting from the Vista DVD), Vista no longer
insisted on pretending it was the C: drive. It's very happy being F: now.

When I boot the computer, I'm presented with a choice between "Microsoft
Windows" (which is Vista) or "Older Version of Windows" (or words to
that effect). If I choose the Older Version option, I get a submenu
with options to boot Win2K or either of the XPs). I have set the second
option as the default, so when I do a hands-off boot I eventually end up
with my preferred XP running. Actually, I'm becoming so happy with
Vista that I may change that so that Vista becomes my default.

I think booting into XP or Win2K has no effect whatsoever on my Vista
installation. I can't even figure out how it could. Why would XP on D:
or E: start tampering with files on F: or any other partition that it
has no reason to look at? Am I mistaken about this?

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

The issue isn't whether or not the custom option is available when you
launch Setup from the desktop, but whether or not the only volume available
as the target partition is the legacy Windows system volume. I have not
seen anything but that "a clean install" is required when the upgrade
combination results in a yellow dot in the Upgrade Matrix.

I don't think we can just assume that it will the same with an upgrade
edition upgrade as it is when you run a full edition upgrade. Allowing a
clean installation to a non-system partition would allow the upgraded OS to
stay on the system. It would be a very basic violation of the EULA for
upgrade editions to support keeping the legacy OS that was used as the
qualifying OS for the upgrade. The EULA does not come into play this way
when using a full editon pk so I have not been able to experiment at all.

I can see an upgrade edition product key locking the installation to the
computer's system partition. I don't know if that is how it is designed,
but I can see why it might be done.

And it is also possible that different rules might apply when booting with
an x64 dvd.

This is an area I would like to see verified before reassuring folks that
they can install to a second partition with an UE pk.

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

Nobody ever said Win2k is affected. It isn't because VSS first appeared in
XP. The XP and Vista VSS drivers are incompatible. Vista knows this and
knows how to leave XP VSS files alone. XP doesn't and deletes the Vista VSS
files when you boot into XP.

Please search this group on "volsnap.sys" for a full description and why a
fix is not forthcoming. This issue is well known by MS and has been
commented on by users for at least 18 months. It is a well-known fact.

 

[John Barnes]

1. You still have the license problem
2. Your current RC2 drive has no boot records
3. You cannot use the XP CD to prove anything. You must have the
qualifying OS installed and activated.
4 Vista is probably drive C already depending on how you installed.
5 You will still lose your Vista Restore points as Colin advised.
6. Once set in the registry drive letters don't change easily.
7. What does a repair install get you except having to reapply all Windows
updates.

 

[Bill Anderson]

Nobody ever said Win2k is affected. It isn't because VSS first appeared
in XP. The XP and Vista VSS drivers are incompatible. Vista knows this
and knows how to leave XP VSS files alone. XP doesn't and deletes the
Vista VSS files when you boot into XP.

Please search this group on "volsnap.sys" for a full description and why
a fix is not forthcoming. This issue is well known by MS and has been
commented on by users for at least 18 months. It is a well-known fact.

I tried to search in Google Groups, but I couldn't find this group
listed. I think that's pretty amazing in itself. Google is my normal
source for searching the groups.

Then I tried to search on my ISP's newsgroup server. No go. Then I
tried to search in GigaNews using the Grabit client. Still no go.
Please give me some guidance on doing the search you've recommended.

Also, what exactly is my copy of Vista not doing that it should be
doing, considering that I boot into XP all the time? It seems to be
working perfectly. What isn't in my Vista partition that should be
there? Something to do with system restore? I use Ghost for my system
restores, but if XP is tampering with Vista somehow, I'd like to
understand how that works. Thanks.

 

[John Barnes]

And Vista could do the same rollup of the qualifying system and leave it on
the old volume while installing on a new volume. Guess we will see.

 

[Guest]

Colin,
Your point re. loss of vista restore points when I boot to xp is well taken
and it is frustrating. But I have a workaround which works very well. I have
a disk imaging backup program, Retrospect in xp. It backsup both xp and vista
to the external HD automatically on weekly basis. You can set up the schedule
as you want and you can have as many backups as you want. First time it
backsup complete disk images and then it backsup the subsequent changes on
increment basis. Depending on the size of the ext HD you can have backups for
ever. Recently I had to restore RC2 to an earlier date. I restored vista from
xp. It worked flawlessly in few minutes. It also enabled me to create a boot
cd. So I can boot up even if windows does not boot up and use the restore
function.

 

[Rick Rogers]

Hi,

Close:

- Boot with VHP DVD, format and custom install VHP. Use xp cd to prove
prior
OS

That step won't work. Upgrades have to now be done from within an installed,
activated, and validated operating system. No longer can you simply insert
the media as proof of ownership and do a clean install with an upgrade
Product Key.

--
Best of Luck,

Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP

Windows help - www.rickrogers.org

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

It isn't a Vista problem. It's an XP problem. You will lose any Vista
files created by Vista VSS snapshots each time you boot into XP unless you
only boot into Safe Mode. The driver that causes this does not run in Safe
Mode.

Volsnap.sys (the VSS driver) runs when you boot and it enumerates all
snapshots on the system. Not just a drive or partition, the whole system.
Booting into Vista does no harm to XP VSS files, but booting into XP
destroys Vista VSS files.

Unless you hide the Vista volumes from XP the XP volsnap.sys will enumerate
the Vista VSS files and determine that they are in an incorrect format. It
then deletes them to protect the user from attempting restorations with
these supposedly corrupt files. The fix would require a rewrite of the XP
VSS services and MS has determined that it is not feasible. It would be an
extensive rewrite to XP and the percentage of users who will ever see this
problem is less than 1% of the user base.

Users usually first spot this issue when they notice that their Vista system
restore points have disappeared so they think it is a problem with Vista
System Restore. It isn't. Turning off SR does nothing to protect shadow
copy files and backup files (and some other types that rely on volsnap.sys
created snapshots). SR is just one of the victims, not the culprit, and the
problem is caused by XP volsnap.sys, not Vista's.

The only two solutions found so far are third party boot managers and
BitLocker (not available except in Enterprise and Ultimate editions). You
should subscribe to this group (microsoft.public.windows.vista.general) via
Windows Mail or Outlook Express so you can read the extensive commentary on
this topic. There is additional commentary in
microsoft.public.windows.vista.installation_setup too.

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

Let me set a scenario:

Two drive system, C: XP system, D: blank.

Launch Vista upgrade edition Setup from C: (desktop) and enter an upgrade
edition product key.

Will entry of the upgrade edition product key disable the option to do a
custom installation to D: and only allow either an upgrade or custom option
on C: as the only choices?

It might on the assumption that a dual boot setup that leaves the qualifying
legacy OS on C: still usable is not an upgrade but a second installation of
Windows and therefore should be disabled.

Obviously we all know that a full edition allows a choice of the target
volume, but I don't see why MS would allow that same choice for an upgrade
edition. No one cares whether you choose to upgrade the legacy bits or
replace the legacy OS, but if you are performing an upgrade the installation
should not be able to be done anywhere but the system volume from which you
run the desktop.

 

[Colin Barnhorst]

If you are running Retrospect 7.5 from XP you have already lost your Vista
VSS files by the time you start the backup. Your backup plan fails to take
into account that at present you have to boot into XP to run Retrospect 7.5
since it is not yet Vista compatible. By the time you boot into XP your
solution is defeated because volsnap.sys has already run before you can
start your backup.

However, you will not have any of these issues if you purchase a Vista
upgrade edition because you will not be running both XP and Vista anymore.

If you still want to dual boot, you need to purchase a full edition of Vista
or yet another copy of XP.

Retrospect 7.5 is an excellent program and I use it on all my XP systems.