unable to delete pop3 email

[ever90321]

Hi,

Our office uses a combination of Outlook 2003 and 2007, and while we
have an Exchange server, too, several users share some POP3 mailboxes
that are hosted off-site. When we originally set this up, I wanted to
make sure that every user received every message, even if they were on
vacation or out of the office for a while. So each copy of Outlook is
set to "Leave a copy of messages on the server" and "Remove from
server after 14 days", and I thought that would be the end of it.

Earlier this week, one of the users told me she'd gotten a complaint
that her associates were unable to send to one of these mailboxes,
receiving a "mailbox full" error. When I checked, there were messages
still present dating back to October 2007 ! And the other boxes
contain mail dating to early 2008

I've gone looking for answers on Usenet and the web, but am not
finding any. This problem is with both Outlook 2003 and 2007, which
tells me it's somewhat outside the program's control. I can delete
messages in these boxes manually through a telnet prompt, so there's
nothing obviously wrong with the mailboxes. If there is a way to log
the POP3 transaction that should help solve the problem. But does
anybody have other suggestions? Could it be caused by a permission
issue on the workstations?

Thanks in advance,

Todd

 

[Roady [MVP]]

It's very likely an issue with having a virus scanner integrated with
Outlook which is not properly passing along the delete request. Disable this
integration and try again. It might not work with already received items so
you might want to change the settings or "play around" with the option that
deletes it from the server when it also is deleted from Outlook.

 

[ever90321]

Hi Robert,

Well, we have had issues with our virus checker doing things it isn't
configured for (mysteriously deleting infected email on the Exchange
server when it should be storing them, and sometimes distributing
notifications to the wrong parties). This has the ring of truth. I
am not aware of any settings beyond enabling or disabling POP3
connection scanning, but will disable it first on my workstation as a
test, and then bitch to the vendor if that is indeed the problem.

Are you aware of any documents that explain how Outlook handles
deleting POP3 messages on an outside server after a certain time
frame? IIRC, the Outlook Express / Thunderbird / Eudora / etc.
tracking method is largely self-evident, but I ran some tests this
afternoon with Wireshark and Process Monitor, and am left scratching
my head. I can find the most obvious settings in the registry, and
determined that the POP3 connection goes directly from Outlook to the
remote server, and is not relayed through Exchange. But the exact
logic escapes me. How/where does it track these things?

Thanks,

Todd

 

[Brian Tillman [MVP - Outlook]]

Our office uses a combination of Outlook 2003 and 2007, and while we
have an Exchange server, too, several users share some POP3 mailboxes
that are hosted off-site. When we originally set this up, I wanted to
make sure that every user received every message, even if they were on
vacation or out of the office for a while. So each copy of Outlook is
set to "Leave a copy of messages on the server" and "Remove from
server after 14 days", and I thought that would be the end of it.

Earlier this week, one of the users told me she'd gotten a complaint
that her associates were unable to send to one of these mailboxes,
receiving a "mailbox full" error. When I checked, there were messages
still present dating back to October 2007 ! And the other boxes
contain mail dating to early 2008

So, the issue is that despite the settings for deletion, the messages still
remain on the server and are fiulling the mailbox, correct? Have you also
enabled the option to delete from the server when Deleted Items is emptied?

To see what happens during a send/receive (and which I believe is also when
Outlook would send the DELE command to the POP server, since there's no
other time when Outlook communicates with the server), turn on diagnostic
logging. http://support.microsoft.com/kb/300479

It could be a function of the server as well. It may not honor DELE
commands that aren't tied to RETR commands within the same POP session. I'm
not sure this issue is completely solvable.

 

[ever90321]

news:34b9c255-b49e-49b5-b4b8-d7254711f85b@f11g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...

So, the issue is that despite the settings for deletion, the messages still
remain on the server and are fiulling the mailbox, correct? Have you also
enabled the option todeletefrom the server when Deleted Items is emptied?

To see what happens during a send/receive (and which I believe is also whenOutlookwould send the DELE command to the POP server, since there's no
other time whenOutlookcommunicates with the server), turn on diagnostic
logging. http://support.microsoft.com/kb/300479

It could be a function of the server as well. It may not honor DELE
commands that aren't tied to RETR commands within the same POP session. I'm
not sure this issue is completely solvable.

It's not a problem with isolated DELE's, because I was able to clear
out 200 messages manually through a telnet session. I also don't have
"the Deleted items" option enabled, as I want it running on a schedule
in case somebody is out of the office and the message needs seen by
multiple eyes. Thanks for the link. I used Wireshark yesterday, but
that was the logging feature I originally wanted. I'm still trying to
decide if I download a message from 3 months ago, and with Outlook on
a set 14-day delete schedule, would it delete these messages from the
server immediately or would it wait 14 days? Unless Outlook spies on
the headers at some point, it would likely be the latter.

Thanks again,

Todd

 

[Brian Tillman [MVP - Outlook]]

It's not a problem with isolated DELE's, because I was able to clear
out 200 messages manually through a telnet session. I also don't have
"the Deleted items" option enabled, as I want it running on a schedule
in case somebody is out of the office and the message needs seen by
multiple eyes. Thanks for the link. I used Wireshark yesterday, but
that was the logging feature I originally wanted. I'm still trying to
decide if I download a message from 3 months ago, and with Outlook on
a set 14-day delete schedule, would it delete these messages from the
server immediately or would it wait 14 days? Unless Outlook spies on
the headers at some point, it would likely be the latter.

UIDs generated in a POP listing of messages on the server are a cooperative
effort between the client and server. If at any time you create a new mail
profile on any one of the three PCs that share access to the mailbox, that
PC will not have any knowledge of what messages are old or new and the UID
values will be regenerated so that might also be a contributing factor. Of
course, you would have noticed if one of those PCs had redownloaded all of
the messages in the mailbox's Inbox, so that may not be a concern.

 

[ever90321]

news:53172803-856d-4f18-880b-176fd2c4e3fb@e18g2000yqo.googlegroups.com...

UIDs generated in a POP listing of messages on the server are a cooperative
effort between the client and server. If at any time you create a new mail
profile on any one of the three PCs that share access to the mailbox, that
PC will not have any knowledge of what messages are old or new and the UID
values will be regenerated so that might also be a contributing factor. Of
course, you would have noticed if one of those PCs had redownloaded all of
the messages in the mailbox's Inbox, so that may not be a concern.

Well, I've done some more testing, including

1) Manually deleting all but 13 days' worth of email from one of the
mailboxes. Mail from 12/5 should have been deleted sometime after
Friday.
2) Configuring Outlook 2003 on my computer to check, process, and
delete mail for this POP3 account, just as the other employees do.
3) This morning I manually disabled the virus checker on my computer
and hit Send and Receive a couple times.
4) But checking the mailbox manually now, the 12/5 mail is still
there.
5) The Outlook log shows it logging in, generating the UIDL and LIST
data, comparing the old and new versions, and downloading any new
messages. It also prints the deletion settings in shorthand. Here's
a snip from the end of a log:

[tx] RETR 11
<rx> +OK 7349 octets
Do deletions: LoS: yes, DA: 14, DoN: no
Disconnecting from host
[tx] QUIT
<rx> +OK
Disconnected from host

but it never seems to act on those settings! I am still hoping for
more insights into Outlook's POP3 logic, exactly what it's supposed to
do, how, and when.

As an aside, the POP3 RFC suggests there is no cooperation in
generating UID's. They are sever-assigned and persistent between
sessions:

The unique-id of a message is an arbitrary server-determined
string, consisting of one to 70 characters in the range 0x21
to 0x7E, which uniquely identifies a message within a
maildrop and which persists across sessions. This
persistence is required even if a session ends without
entering the UPDATE state. The server should never reuse an
unique-id in a given maildrop, for as long as the entity
using the unique-id exists.

Could it be that Outlook expects the UIDL's in a specific format? The
list we're getting looks like

1229975412.998534.m1gemini00-02.prod.mesa1.1081039200

which I assume is a hash (or random numbers), not an encoded date
format, ticks, or anything related to the send dates.

Any other ideas? I think I will call the email host, in case they've
heard of this before.

Thanks,

Todd

 

[ever90321]

Well, I've done some more testing, including

1) Manually deleting all but 13 days' worth of email from one of the
mailboxes. Mail from 12/5 should have been deleted sometime after
Friday.
2) ConfiguringOutlook2003on my computer to check, process, anddeletemail for thisPOP3account, just as the other employees do.
3) This morning I manually disabled the virus checker on my computer
and hit Send and Receive a couple times.
4) But checking the mailbox manually now, the 12/5 mail is still
there.
5) TheOutlooklog shows it logging in, generating the UIDL and LIST
data, comparing the old and new versions, and downloading any new
messages. It also prints the deletion settings in shorthand. Here's
a snip from the end of a log:

[tx] RETR 11
<rx> +OK 7349 octets
Do deletions: LoS: yes, DA: 14, DoN: no
Disconnecting from host
[tx] QUIT
<rx> +OK
Disconnected from host

but it never seems to act on those settings! I am still hoping for
more insights intoOutlook'sPOP3logic, exactly what it's supposed to
do, how, and when.

As an aside, thePOP3RFC suggests there is no cooperation in
generating UID's. They are sever-assigned and persistent between
sessions:

The unique-id of a message is an arbitrary server-determined
string, consisting of one to 70 characters in the range 0x21
to 0x7E, which uniquely identifies a message within a
maildrop and which persists across sessions. This
persistence is required even if a session ends without
entering the UPDATE state. The server should never reuse an
unique-id in a given maildrop, for as long as the entity
using the unique-id exists.

Could it be thatOutlookexpects the UIDL's in a specific format? The
list we're getting looks like

1229975412.998534.m1gemini00-02.prod.mesa1.1081039200

which I assume is a hash (or random numbers), not an encoded date
format, ticks, or anything related to the send dates.

Any other ideas? I think I will call the email host, in case they've
heard of this before.

Update: the email provider has no idea why this is happening, but
their webmail system has an auto-purge feature that I wasn't aware
of. I'm annoyed that Outlook isn't doing what it's supposed to, but
this is at least a workaround. If anybody has other ideas, I'm all
ears. (I may try comparing the results to Outlook Express,
Thunderbird, Pegasus Mail, etc. to verify this is a Windows problem.)

Thanks,

Todd

 

[ever90321]

On Dec 22, 4:37 pm, (e-mail address removed) wrote:

Update: theemailprovider has no idea why this is happening, but
their webmail system has an auto-purge feature that I wasn't aware
of. I'm annoyed thatOutlookisn't doing what it's supposed to, but
this is at least a workaround. If anybody has other ideas, I'm all
ears. (I may try comparing the results toOutlookExpress,
Thunderbird, Pegasus Mail, etc. to verify this is a Windows problem.)

For those who are interested, Outlook is now deleting old messages
correctly. I never enabled the email provider's auto-purge system.
For anyone else experiencing this problem, my advice is to trim your
email messages manually to within the auto-delete range, and then be
patient for a few days. I still think the logic involved needs re-
examined (or perhaps just better explained), but in the end, it does
work.

Todd