Toshiba Satellite problem

[JFG]

Hey, all,

I'm back with a problem that I hope is curable, but I fear the worst. I was
given a Satellite A45-S250 by a family member. It intermittently booted up
but didn't run for long. It had the problem of BSD after memory dump on a
regular basis. I looked up the error message and many suggested bad RAM. I
replaced the RAM with known good RAM and the problem persisted. I disabled
all the peripherals I could and tried to load a fresh install of XP. This
didn't work. Long story, short: I thought I might have a burnt CPU so I
took out the P4-2.8 Celeron that runs at 533 and replaced with a P4 M 1.6
that runs at 400. According to the Toshiba website the mobo should run
either. I tried booting the laptop with the 1.6 and it wouldn't boot. So I
replaced the 1.6 with the original 2.8 and now the laptop won't boot at all
with the 2.8. It does not go into the BIOS even though the lights come on
and I hear activity in the cd-rom. I fear that I might have blown the
motherboard.

Anyway, if anyone has suggestions as to what I might do at this point beyond
getting a new mobo I'd like to hear them. Again, thanks to any and all who
take the time to suggest possibilities. JG

 

[Paul]

Hey, all,

I'm back with a problem that I hope is curable, but I fear the worst. I was
given a Satellite A45-S250 by a family member. It intermittently booted up
but didn't run for long. It had the problem of BSD after memory dump on a
regular basis. I looked up the error message and many suggested bad RAM. I
replaced the RAM with known good RAM and the problem persisted. I disabled
all the peripherals I could and tried to load a fresh install of XP. This
didn't work. Long story, short: I thought I might have a burnt CPU so I
took out the P4-2.8 Celeron that runs at 533 and replaced with a P4 M 1.6
that runs at 400. According to the Toshiba website the mobo should run
either. I tried booting the laptop with the 1.6 and it wouldn't boot. So I
replaced the 1.6 with the original 2.8 and now the laptop won't boot at all
with the 2.8. It does not go into the BIOS even though the lights come on
and I hear activity in the cd-rom. I fear that I might have blown the
motherboard.

Anyway, if anyone has suggestions as to what I might do at this point beyond
getting a new mobo I'd like to hear them. Again, thanks to any and all who
take the time to suggest possibilities. JG

Examine the socket and the processor carefully, for connection problems.
If there is a lever, or a screw that clamps the ZIF socket into place,
make sure it is secure. Make sure the physical assembly was all put back
the same way (thermal paste, heatpipe heatsink onto processor, and so on).

The Celeron would not burn, because it would have THERMTRIP. If the
heatsink falls off, the THERMTRIP signal is available to kill power
to the processor. So in theory, you shouldn't be able to burn a
processor. Both modern Intel and AMD processors now have THERMTRIP.
You'd have to go back to some of the early Athlons, to find cases
where the protection is less than ideal. (My AthlonXP motherboard,
has a separate eight pin chip, which monitors the temperature and
does the equivalent of THERMTRIP.)

You can check for THERMTRIP, by downloading the datasheet for the
processor. One way to do that, is go through the list of Celerons
here, select an appropriate one, and then see of there is a documentation
link.

http://processorfinder.intel.com/

I wouldn't panic yet, because I interpret your results to suggest
something isn't assembled right. Like turning the screw on one of
those small ZIF sockets, to lock it.

Paul

 

[JFG]

Examine the socket and the processor carefully, for connection problems.
If there is a lever, or a screw that clamps the ZIF socket into place,
make sure it is secure. Make sure the physical assembly was all put back
the same way (thermal paste, heatpipe heatsink onto processor, and so on).

The Celeron would not burn, because it would have THERMTRIP. If the
heatsink falls off, the THERMTRIP signal is available to kill power
to the processor. So in theory, you shouldn't be able to burn a
processor. Both modern Intel and AMD processors now have THERMTRIP.
You'd have to go back to some of the early Athlons, to find cases
where the protection is less than ideal. (My AthlonXP motherboard,
has a separate eight pin chip, which monitors the temperature and
does the equivalent of THERMTRIP.)

You can check for THERMTRIP, by downloading the datasheet for the
processor. One way to do that, is go through the list of Celerons
here, select an appropriate one, and then see of there is a documentation
link.

http://processorfinder.intel.com/

I wouldn't panic yet, because I interpret your results to suggest
something isn't assembled right. Like turning the screw on one of
those small ZIF sockets, to lock it.

Paul

Great post, Paul. Very good information. The cpu socket is one of those
with a lever. I checked the cpu itself for bent pins, etc and it appears
ok. It is locked tight in place and I'm pretty sure I put the cooler
assembly back correctly. You've convinced me that I haven't burnt the cpu
and now I'm wondering if I didn't do some harm to the motherboard. The
laptop wasn't working properly when I started on this project and now it
doesn't go to BIOS. I haven't completely given up on the one I have yet.
I'll try reassembling it today. I'm thinking that what I'll end up doing is
buying an equivalent unit from ebay with a broken screen and missing parts.
I'll cannabalize the one I have and make one good one. Thanks for your
response. JG

 

[Paul]

Great post, Paul. Very good information. The cpu socket is one of those
with a lever. I checked the cpu itself for bent pins, etc and it appears
ok. It is locked tight in place and I'm pretty sure I put the cooler
assembly back correctly. You've convinced me that I haven't burnt the cpu
and now I'm wondering if I didn't do some harm to the motherboard. The
laptop wasn't working properly when I started on this project and now it
doesn't go to BIOS. I haven't completely given up on the one I have yet.
I'll try reassembling it today. I'm thinking that what I'll end up doing is
buying an equivalent unit from ebay with a broken screen and missing parts.
I'll cannabalize the one I have and make one good one. Thanks for your
response. JG

To know exactly what you did, I'd want the SLxxx number off both
processors. One of the differences on a mobile processor, is
there are a couple signals for SpeedStep. But that shouldn't harm
it. For example, people buy SL726 processors, and install them
in desktop boards, to overclock them. You can raise an SL726 to
FSB1200, causing the core to run at 3.6GHz, and I'm told they
run pretty cool while doing so. So I don't necessarily see the
installation of a mobile processor, as a death sentence. But
to know more, you'd want to use the code on the processor,
and look it up, to see exactly what it is. From that generation,
I don't know if there are any ULV (ultra low voltage) versions
of S478 chips or not. But it is easiest to trace this info,
by using the SLxxx number.

This is the mobile that overclocks so nice. It runs at a lower
speed than the stated values on this page, when plugged into
a desktop board, which is why it ends up at FSB1200 and 3.6GHz core.
The reason I'm interested in that one, is it would fit perfectly in my
current motherboard (P4C800-E Deluxe), which can apparently
overclock that high. I've run into a few people who buy these,
and don't know what a good deal they got (they're puzzled by
the speed it runs at).

http://processorfinder.intel.com/Details.aspx?sSpec=sl726

Paul

 

[JFG]

To know exactly what you did, I'd want the SLxxx number off both
processors. One of the differences on a mobile processor, is
there are a couple signals for SpeedStep. But that shouldn't harm
it. For example, people buy SL726 processors, and install them
in desktop boards, to overclock them. You can raise an SL726 to
FSB1200, causing the core to run at 3.6GHz, and I'm told they
run pretty cool while doing so. So I don't necessarily see the
installation of a mobile processor, as a death sentence. But
to know more, you'd want to use the code on the processor,
and look it up, to see exactly what it is. From that generation,
I don't know if there are any ULV (ultra low voltage) versions
of S478 chips or not. But it is easiest to trace this info,
by using the SLxxx number.

This is the mobile that overclocks so nice. It runs at a lower
speed than the stated values on this page, when plugged into
a desktop board, which is why it ends up at FSB1200 and 3.6GHz core.
The reason I'm interested in that one, is it would fit perfectly in my
current motherboard (P4C800-E Deluxe), which can apparently
overclock that high. I've run into a few people who buy these,
and don't know what a good deal they got (they're puzzled by
the speed it runs at).

http://processorfinder.intel.com/Details.aspx?sSpec=sl726

Paul

Turns out that you were 100% correct. I had not put the original CPU back
in correctly. It was slightly cocked and rocked a little before putting
down the lever. After installing correctly, the laptop then booted. So, no
harm no foul on the CPU switch. However, the original problem remains -
that is, the occasional BSD with the quick message of memory dump. I have a
couple of new sticks of RAM coming in and I'll see if that makes a
difference. Meanwhile I've bid on an equivalent model on eBay that has no
peripherals and a broken screen. If the motherboard on that one works, I'll
be in high cotton if I win it and can cannabalize my unit successfully. I
have to wait one week for that since the auction doesn't end until then. In
the nonce, I'll continue to fool around with the one I have here.

I appreciate your taking the time to find out all the helpful information.
Best, JG

 

[JFG]

Turns out that you were 100% correct. I had not put the original CPU back
in correctly. It was slightly cocked and rocked a little before putting
down the lever. After installing correctly, the laptop then booted. So,
no harm no foul on the CPU switch. However, the original problem
remains - that is, the occasional BSD with the quick message of memory
dump. I have a couple of new sticks of RAM coming in and I'll see if that
makes a difference. Meanwhile I've bid on an equivalent model on eBay
that has no peripherals and a broken screen. If the motherboard on that
one works, I'll be in high cotton if I win it and can cannabalize my unit
successfully. I have to wait one week for that since the auction doesn't
end until then. In the nonce, I'll continue to fool around with the one I
have here.

I appreciate your taking the time to find out all the helpful information.

Best, JG

Follow-up for those interested in this problem: It turned out to be a
defective cpu. I replaced the 2.8 with a known good 2.6 and the machine
behaves as it should. I guess that the original cpu was overheated and
burnt in some way. Best, JG

 

[Paul]

Best, JG

Follow-up for those interested in this problem: It turned out to be a
defective cpu. I replaced the 2.8 with a known good 2.6 and the machine
behaves as it should. I guess that the original cpu was overheated and
burnt in some way. Best, JG

There are other ways to kill a processor besides heat. It will be interesting
now, to see how long the replacement processor lasts.

As an example, Northwood processors are sensitive to excessive Vcore, and
some overclockers noted their processor croaked instantly, at a certain voltage. If
something on the motherboard of the laptop, is not regulating power properly,
it could place a voltage on there, which shortens the life of the processor.

The Arrhenius equation provides a mechanism to relate temperature, to operating
life, but generally speaking, this doesn't seem to be an issue for the
average life of computers. Most people upgrade, before any thermal limit
seems to be reached.

One of the video card companies, did a reliability calculation of one of
their competitor's offerings, in the hopes of scaring customers away.
The calculation predicted a short life for the video card, like a year
or less. But I never noticed any rash of those products dying.

Good reliability calculations, use field data collected from previous
failures, to adjust the equations to give better results. But that
was not the first time I was scared unnecessarily by such calculations.
The first big system I worked on, the reliability calculation said the
Intel processor used, would be more unreliable, than any other piece of
hardware in the equipment. Which was pure B.S.

Paul

 

[JFG]

There are other ways to kill a processor besides heat. It will be
interesting
now, to see how long the replacement processor lasts.

As an example, Northwood processors are sensitive to excessive Vcore, and
some overclockers noted their processor croaked instantly, at a certain
voltage. If
something on the motherboard of the laptop, is not regulating power
properly,
it could place a voltage on there, which shortens the life of the
processor.

The Arrhenius equation provides a mechanism to relate temperature, to
operating
life, but generally speaking, this doesn't seem to be an issue for the
average life of computers. Most people upgrade, before any thermal limit
seems to be reached.

One of the video card companies, did a reliability calculation of one of
their competitor's offerings, in the hopes of scaring customers away.
The calculation predicted a short life for the video card, like a year
or less. But I never noticed any rash of those products dying.

Good reliability calculations, use field data collected from previous
failures, to adjust the equations to give better results. But that
was not the first time I was scared unnecessarily by such calculations.
The first big system I worked on, the reliability calculation said the
Intel processor used, would be more unreliable, than any other piece of
hardware in the equipment. Which was pure B.S.

Paul

Thanks again for all the good info. Upon further investigation it seems
that this laptop belonged to a young teen who left it on at all times,
didn't provide for proper circulation around it (had it on a soft surface)
and generally kept it very hot. In fact, he said that he couldn't put it on
his lap. It could be many things, as you said, but the interocular test
(right between the eyes) tells me that the cpu got overheated. It didn't
look burnt but I'd bet on it. Anyway, all is better now with a new cpu and
I appreciate your ongoing help. Best, JG