Time of the year when I try to get a Linux setup working, again.

[The little lost angel]

It's the time of the year when I try to get Linux working again. (Did
Slackware, tried Redhat, tried Debian, managed to boot Mandrake, Suse
actually did something useful). Been trying since '98 or something.

A bit of rant/background here, please skip right to the last paragraph
if you don't think understanding where I'm coming from would help in
making a recommendation.

Looking back, I realized my main problem is I have no idea why they
worked and not knowing why simply breaks them for me. I look at it
bewildered and lost. There are thousands of files all over the place
and I have no idea which are useful and which aren't. It's as bad as
Windows was at first to me. And I hate being the typical girl whose
first thought when the PC don't work is to cry for help or scream
what's wrong with this stupid computer it doesn't work!

Things have become so user friendly it's like my first experience when
using Windows from DOS. I have no idea how it worked and was utterly
frustrating for me when things didn't work and I don't know why or
even where to start looking. I ended up dropping right back to CLI for
most things.

I know it's probably ass backward to most people. It's been said for
years that once Linux gets a userfriendly installation prog and GUI,
more people will use it. But unfortunately I realized it doesn't work
for me. I did more productive work on Slackware and Solaris than I
ever got out of working in X.

Even if it was more tedious like adding a new mail user required me to
make a new directory, crypt >> temp.txt, then copy/paste it into the
user file, then run some program to enter that into the mail DB and
then hup the mail daemon. But at least I know when something goes
wrong where it's likely to be. Now if I just enter a name and password
into a GUI interface click OK and it doesn't work. I have totally no
idea why or where to look.

I know there's the notion if you want to figure out how the car
(Linux) works, you start by driving one around. Then start poking a
little bit here and there under the hood, like learn to change the
oil, change the tyres, then maybe change the spoiler or something more
advanced. Slowly going down to the intimate details.

But to me, it's bewildering and hopeless because I'm totally lost at
whether I should change the oil first or the gas. Should I open up the
front, back, top or bottom first? If my car doesn't move, is it
because the gearbox's spoilt? the igniter's dead? out of gas? somebody
stole the wheels? where shouldI check first????

I need to start with just the engine, then realize I need a
shaft/axle. Then install one & find out, I need a gearbox, install one
and find out I need wheels etc until I get something that moves in a
straight line and realize I need a steering wheel and so on.

I guess being stupid, I'm unable to handle a complex item like Linux
without knowing how the basic blocks work individually and in relation
to each other.

So is there such a bare bone version of Linux available that would
allow me to take such a learning path? Would appreciate greatly any
recommendations, or even an easy way to strip an existing version into
the bare essentials. Thanks!!!!

--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code

 

[Markku Kolkka]

I guess being stupid, I'm unable to handle a complex item like Linux
without knowing how the basic blocks work individually and in relation
to each other.

So is there such a bare bone version of Linux available that would
allow me to take such a learning path?

Linux From Scratch: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/
Gentoo Linux: http://www.gentoo.org/

 

[Bit Twister]

bewildered and lost. There are thousands of files all over the place
and I have no idea which are useful and which aren't.

http://www.icon.co.za/~psheer/book/rute.html.gz

 

[RusH]

[email protected] (The little lost angel) wrote
:

So is there such a bare bone version of Linux available that would
allow me to take such a learning path? Would appreciate greatly
any recommendations, or even an easy way to strip an existing
version into the bare essentials. Thanks!!!!

stick to Suse, has lots of gui, but you can always go ctrl-alt-F2 and
play the cli way + it has a huge commercial support for little people
(not a corporate world like redhat)

Pozdrawiam.

 

[mjt]

So is there such a bare bone version of Linux available that would
allow me to take such a learning path? Would appreciate greatly any
recommendations, or even an easy way to strip an existing version into
the bare essentials.

http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/

 

[ray]

It's the time of the year when I try to get Linux working again. (Did
Slackware, tried Redhat, tried Debian, managed to boot Mandrake, Suse
actually did something useful). Been trying since '98 or something.

A bit of rant/background here, please skip right to the last paragraph
if you don't think understanding where I'm coming from would help in
making a recommendation.

Looking back, I realized my main problem is I have no idea why they
worked and not knowing why simply breaks them for me. I look at it
bewildered and lost. There are thousands of files all over the place
and I have no idea which are useful and which aren't. It's as bad as
Windows was at first to me. And I hate being the typical girl whose
first thought when the PC don't work is to cry for help or scream
what's wrong with this stupid computer it doesn't work!

Things have become so user friendly it's like my first experience when
using Windows from DOS. I have no idea how it worked and was utterly
frustrating for me when things didn't work and I don't know why or
even where to start looking. I ended up dropping right back to CLI for
most things.

I know it's probably ass backward to most people. It's been said for
years that once Linux gets a userfriendly installation prog and GUI,
more people will use it. But unfortunately I realized it doesn't work
for me. I did more productive work on Slackware and Solaris than I
ever got out of working in X.

Even if it was more tedious like adding a new mail user required me to
make a new directory, crypt >> temp.txt, then copy/paste it into the
user file, then run some program to enter that into the mail DB and
then hup the mail daemon. But at least I know when something goes
wrong where it's likely to be. Now if I just enter a name and password
into a GUI interface click OK and it doesn't work. I have totally no
idea why or where to look.

I know there's the notion if you want to figure out how the car
(Linux) works, you start by driving one around. Then start poking a
little bit here and there under the hood, like learn to change the
oil, change the tyres, then maybe change the spoiler or something more
advanced. Slowly going down to the intimate details.

But to me, it's bewildering and hopeless because I'm totally lost at
whether I should change the oil first or the gas. Should I open up the
front, back, top or bottom first? If my car doesn't move, is it
because the gearbox's spoilt? the igniter's dead? out of gas? somebody
stole the wheels? where shouldI check first????

I need to start with just the engine, then realize I need a
shaft/axle. Then install one & find out, I need a gearbox, install one
and find out I need wheels etc until I get something that moves in a
straight line and realize I need a steering wheel and so on.

I guess being stupid, I'm unable to handle a complex item like Linux
without knowing how the basic blocks work individually and in relation
to each other.

So is there such a bare bone version of Linux available that would
allow me to take such a learning path? Would appreciate greatly any
recommendations, or even an easy way to strip an existing version into
the bare essentials. Thanks!!!!

Gentoo
LFS (Linux From Scratch)

 

[Jon Wilson]

It's the time of the year when I try to get Linux working again. (Did
Slackware, tried Redhat, tried Debian, managed to boot Mandrake, Suse
actually did something useful). Been trying since '98 or something. ----
So is there such a bare bone version of Linux available that would
allow me to take such a learning path? Would appreciate greatly any
recommendations, or even an easy way to strip an existing version into
the bare essentials. Thanks!!!!

http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/From-PowerUp-To-Bash-Prompt-HOWTO.html

 

[Nico Kadel-Garcia]

[email protected] (The little lost angel) wrote
:


stick to Suse, has lots of gui, but you can always go ctrl-alt-F2 and
play the cli way + it has a huge commercial support for little people
(not a corporate world like redhat)

No. I highly recommend against SuSE, because their YaST setup tool for
package installation and site configuration are amazingly bad and violate
all of Eric Raymond's published suggestions for Linux GUI design, they broke
grub-install by replacing it with bits and piece of YaST instead of leaving
the grub author's tools alone, they did the same thing to BIND configuration
tools, they think that putting symlinks in a chroot location to point back
to the original directory is a good idea, etc., etc.

Every major software package has to be extensively re-written to accomodate
their amazingly fragile SuSEconfig tools that they hid in /etc/sysconfig.
It's bad, bad, bad stuff, replicating all the major errors that RedHat used
to do in Linuxconf and which they finally learned not to do.

 

[Guest]

No. I highly recommend against SuSE, because their YaST setup tool for
package installation and site configuration are amazingly bad and violate
all of Eric Raymond's published suggestions for Linux GUI design, they
broke grub-install by replacing it with bits and piece of YaST instead of
leaving the grub author's tools alone, they did the same thing to BIND
configuration tools, they think that putting symlinks in a chroot location
to point back to the original directory is a good idea, etc., etc.

What are you blubbering abpout? Too much booze these last days? Constantly
on crack or what?

Every major software package has to be extensively re-written to
accomodate their amazingly fragile SuSEconfig tools that they hid in
/etc/sysconfig. It's bad, bad, bad stuff, replicating all the major errors
that RedHat used to do in Linuxconf and which they finally learned not to
do.

Idiot

 

[RusH]

http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/From-PowerUp-To-Bash-Prompt-HOWTO.html

now that is a good read, gave me the knowledge to do lfs and now
embedded stuff

Pozdrawiam.

 

[Michael Heiming]

No. I highly recommend against SuSE, because their YaST setup tool for
package installation and site configuration are amazingly bad and violate
all of Eric Raymond's published suggestions for Linux GUI design, they broke
grub-install by replacing it with bits and piece of YaST instead of leaving
the grub author's tools alone, they did the same thing to BIND configuration
tools, they think that putting symlinks in a chroot location to point back
to the original directory is a good idea, etc., etc.

Every major software package has to be extensively re-written to accomodate
their amazingly fragile SuSEconfig tools that they hid in /etc/sysconfig.
It's bad, bad, bad stuff, replicating all the major errors that RedHat used
to do in Linuxconf and which they finally learned not to do.

You can switch off suseconfig somewhere in /etc/sysconfig
completely and simply don't touch yast, then it's usable.

IIRC /etc/sysconfig is FHS, but then I agree, does the OP want to
learn how to use yast and limit himself to this distro or gain
knowledge about Linux?

For an older/slower system I'd suggest trying out the latest
Debian if you have an usable internet connection. Amazing fast
and if someone wants a GUI package installer, far ahead of
anything I saw on other distro:

apt-get install synaptic

 

[The little lost angel]

Thank you everybody for the various suggestions, I'll take some time
to read through the LFS, Gentoo and the from power up to bash links.
Probably will give all of them a try and see which works better for my
personal learning handicap. Thanks again and Happy New Year to
everybody

--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code

 

[Greg Lee]

I know it's probably ass backward to most people. It's been said for
years that once Linux gets a userfriendly installation prog and GUI,
more people will use it. But unfortunately I realized it doesn't work
for me. I did more productive work on Slackware and Solaris than I
ever got out of working in X.

I work like this, too. I do use X, but only for the sake of having
several desktops for xterms and a web browser available at one time.
But I'm not following your problem. What's wrong with Slackware?
You're familiar with it -- it still exists. Use that.

....

But to me, it's bewildering and hopeless because I'm totally lost at
whether I should change the oil first or the gas. Should I open up the
front, back, top or bottom first?

Start by compiling a new kernel. Then give some attention to the
init scripts in /etc/rc.d/. Change /etc/DIRCOLORS to your liking.

....

So is there such a bare bone version of Linux available that would
allow me to take such a learning path?

Most any distribution will do as a bootstrap. Once you have a working
system, there's no need to be dependent on a specific distribution.
You can decide what software you want, what kernel version to run,
which gcc, libc. Take control.

 

[The little lost angel]

I work like this, too. I do use X, but only for the sake of having
several desktops for xterms and a web browser available at one time.
But I'm not following your problem. What's wrong with Slackware?
You're familiar with it -- it still exists. Use that.

My needs now are different from then. Back then, I think the kernel
was at 1.2 or something. I only needed a PPTP internet connection, a
working IRC client, FTP, telnet, joe and C compiler for my bit role
as a MUD coder. It was easy to identify what didn't work and what I
needed, when something broke, it was easy to zoom down on the exact
thing.

Now, there are so many things I need in order to work (X/Browser,
news/mail, office suite, compiler, apacher, ftp, mysql, graphics
editor, USB devices, RAID, firewall etc). But I no longer can figure
out which broke what at where and when with the current distributions.
They are now as bad as Windows as far as I'm concerned.

I probably could get it to work via brute force
reformat/reinstall/repeatedly trying various click and ticks
combination and say yes to the numerous "you need this too,
download/install?" questions in Debian.

Or compromise like using VESA when nVidia drivers just refuse to
compile on my attempt at FreeBSD. At the end of the day, I wouldn't
know why exactly, what went wrong/right or how to fix it the next time
except repeat those steps like a drone & pray it works. Exactly the
same way people reboot their Windows machine and pray the problem goes
away.

Basically I feel relegated to a position where I have no understanding
or control over my own PC. I get a mental block when I don't know why
or what for. Same thing goes for school subjects, i flunk all those
that I couldn't see a why-do-I-need-this-and-what-I-am-doing-this-for
link.

I can deal with I don't have most of the things I need and must learn
to install them. But my meagre brain is limited, I can't deal with I
have everything I need and more, but have to figure out which one is
which and why half of them don't work the way I expect or want them
to.

Anyway so far Gentoo looks good. The basic thing looks like it's only
a few tens of MB to work, which probably means nothing extrafluous to
confuse my little brain with. The philosophy sounds really like my cup
of tea. The community on IRC sounds friendly and active. They also
appear to have support for most of the crucial things I would need for
day to day usage. Plus, their documentation actually explains the
essence of lots of basic things in clear language that others tend to
assume you already know!

--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code

 

[Mikus Grinbergs]

No. I highly recommend against SuSE, because their YaST setup tool for
package installation and site configuration are amazingly bad and violate
all of Eric Raymond's published suggestions for Linux GUI design, they broke
grub-install by replacing it with bits and piece of YaST instead of leaving
the grub author's tools alone, they did the same thing to BIND configuration
tools, they think that putting symlinks in a chroot location to point back
to the original directory is a good idea, etc., etc.

Sounds to me that you are recommending that anyone who wants to use
Linux should study "Eric Raymond's published suggestions" and "the
grub author's tools".

For myself, I am happy to "let YaST do it" -- that works fine for me.

mikus

 

[Greg Lee]

Now, there are so many things I need in order to work (X/Browser,
news/mail, office suite, compiler, apacher, ftp, mysql, graphics
editor, USB devices, RAID, firewall etc). But I no longer can figure
out which broke what at where and when with the current distributions.

Then don't use a distribution. Take advantage of the fact that Linux
is open source. Get source code. Read install docs. Look at the
output of ./configure. Run test suites. Ask for debugging output.
Examine log files.

They are now as bad as Windows as far as I'm concerned. ...

If you depend on distributions to configure and install everything
for you, and never work with source code yourself, in a sense, maybe
that's true. But you're behaving like a Windows user, and whose
fault is that?

 

[The little lost angel]

If you depend on distributions to configure and install everything
for you, and never work with source code yourself, in a sense, maybe
that's true. But you're behaving like a Windows user, and whose
fault is that?

Which is why I was asking for the bare minimum. I don't have a C
compiler to do everything from source, so at the very minimum I needed
something that will boot, network access and have a compiler already
in. After that, I plan to be configuring, compiling and installing the
most of what I need manually instead of using whatever package tool it
has so that I can get a better grasp of what's going on.

Though I don't think I'm behaving like a Windows user, or I'll just
live with Suse/Mandrake and not think too hard about what's going on
and why things don't quite happen the way it's supposed to be.

--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code

 

[Doug Mitton]

If you depend on distributions to configure and install everything
for you, and never work with source code yourself, in a sense, maybe
that's true. But you're behaving like a Windows user, and whose
fault is that?

Distributions seem to cause a lot of trouble for inexperienced users
(not necessarily the problem here). We used to get a lot of problems
from visitors to our LUG that installed an old distro out of a book
(or equally old) then wonder why downloaded packages failed
installation due to dependancy issues. This was usually used as an
argument why Linux will never "be mainstream"!

I tend not to perform upgrades unless there is something I need in it
.... so my distro is out of date VERY quickly. I am an old Slack user
and I always grab the source package and compile for my configuration
but this is not typically something that inexperienced users want to
attempt.

Your response points this issue out very directly but I just thought
I'd post a comment to clarify it ... from my point-of-view anyway.

Happy New Years!

 

[Nico Kadel-Garcia]

Which is why I was asking for the bare minimum. I don't have a C
compiler to do everything from source, so at the very minimum I needed
something that will boot, network access and have a compiler already
in. After that, I plan to be configuring, compiling and installing the
most of what I need manually instead of using whatever package tool it
has so that I can get a better grasp of what's going on.

Though I don't think I'm behaving like a Windows user, or I'll just
live with Suse/Mandrake and not think too hard about what's going on
and why things don't quite happen the way it's supposed to be.

You're not acting like that. If you want to work with minimal systems,
compiled yourself, I'd suggest Gentoo. For sensible package management and
the list of things you need to operate auto provided, I'd suggest starting
with a minimal install of Debian with apt for package management, or any
RedHat release that uses Yum or has it available.

 

[Jim Bowering]

You're not acting like that. If you want to work with minimal systems,
compiled yourself, I'd suggest Gentoo. For sensible package management and
the list of things you need to operate auto provided, I'd suggest starting
with a minimal install of Debian with apt for package management, or any
RedHat release that uses Yum or has it available.

And if you want a very verbose barebones Debian installation guide:

osnews.com/story.php?news_id=2016

Might be getting outdated, but still useful.