sudden network card problems...help please.


F

Funex

Thanks in advance for any help you guys have.

OK. The computer running is win98SE, all patched up to date.

Socket 478 Celeron 1.7GHz.
MSI 651M mainboard
AGP4x video card (geforce2 ti) in AGP slot.
diamond monster sound mx400 in PCI slot
Linksys Wireless PCI card connects to Linksys home wireless router.
256Megs Dimm memory.
floppy
zip IDE
hard drive 30GB western digital IDE.
300watt power supply. came with the case, which is MicroATX.

Everything's working great, until all of a sudden, no internet access.
No network connection. Everything else works, solitaire, the
calculator, everything. But no network. I reinstall windows, thinking
it's bad DUN or something. No work.

OK. So, I troubleshoot, and put in a wired network card into the same
PCI slot as the wireless card. No access. Fine. I'll do it the hard
way. Reformat. reinstall win98, same problem!

I took out the sound card, and moved the wired network card into that
PCI slot...success! Well, sort of. Now I have wired access. But I need
wireless. So, move the wireless card to the new slot and failure. No
network access. Swap back the wired card, access.
Put both cards in at the same time...access through the wired
connection only.

Fine. Its a bad wireless card I think. I happen to have a wireless PCI
card (new belkin in a box) lying around, so I pop it in, and....no go.

I should mention by the way that both cards did find the wireless
network SSID, allow the entry of the WEP key, connect to it, and show
'green' connections. But no network access!!!

So. Is it the motherboard? two bad wireless cards? One new in a box?
Also, I have a laptop, running a wireless PCMCIA card, and it's
working fine...so I know the "network" is there and working.

It confounds me. What am I missing here? Wired works. Wireless
doesn't? Could a motherboard fail like this?

Anyway, thanks for any thoughts you guys might have....

Funex.
 
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R

Rod Speed

Funex said:
Thanks in advance for any help you guys have.

OK. The computer running is win98SE, all patched up to date.

Socket 478 Celeron 1.7GHz.
MSI 651M mainboard
AGP4x video card (geforce2 ti) in AGP slot.
diamond monster sound mx400 in PCI slot
Linksys Wireless PCI card connects to Linksys home wireless router.
256Megs Dimm memory.
floppy
zip IDE
hard drive 30GB western digital IDE.
300watt power supply. came with the case, which is MicroATX.

Everything's working great, until all of a sudden, no internet access.
No network connection. Everything else works, solitaire, the
calculator, everything. But no network. I reinstall windows, thinking
it's bad DUN or something. No work.

OK. So, I troubleshoot, and put in a wired network card into the same
PCI slot as the wireless card. No access. Fine. I'll do it the hard
way. Reformat. reinstall win98, same problem!

I took out the sound card, and moved the wired network card into that
PCI slot...success! Well, sort of. Now I have wired access. But I need
wireless. So, move the wireless card to the new slot and failure. No
network access. Swap back the wired card, access.
Put both cards in at the same time...access through the wired
connection only.

Fine. Its a bad wireless card I think. I happen to have a wireless PCI
card (new belkin in a box) lying around, so I pop it in, and....no go.

I should mention by the way that both cards did find the wireless
network SSID, allow the entry of the WEP key, connect to it, and show
'green' connections. But no network access!!!

So. Is it the motherboard? two bad wireless cards? One new in a box?
Also, I have a laptop, running a wireless PCMCIA card, and it's
working fine...so I know the "network" is there and working.
It confounds me. What am I missing here? Wired works.
Wireless doesn't? Could a motherboard fail like this?

Unlikely and the wireless sort of works anyway which makes it even less likely.
Anyway, thanks for any thoughts you guys might have....

I'd check that you do have the WEP setup properly, if
you managed to stuff that up with the new wireless card,
that would produce the symptoms you are seeing.

The other thing to check is what you are doing firewall wise.

Some like zone alarm particularly can selectively stomp
on the net access and produce effects like you are seeing.
See what happens with that turned off.

Can you move files between the laptop and desktop ?
 
M

Merrill P. L. Worthington

Ignore the troll.


Rod said:
Unlikely and the wireless sort of works anyway which makes it even less likely.




I'd check that you do have the WEP setup properly, if
you managed to stuff that up with the new wireless card,
that would produce the symptoms you are seeing.

The other thing to check is what you are doing firewall wise.

Some like zone alarm particularly can selectively stomp
on the net access and produce effects like you are seeing.
See what happens with that turned off.

Can you move files between the laptop and desktop ?
 
F

Funex

I'd check that you do have the WEP setup properly, if
you managed to stuff that up with the new wireless card,
that would produce the symptoms you are seeing.

I checked with WEP off as well, and it still didn't work. WEP and the
Network is not the issue.

During this I changed WEP keys 5 times. Each time the Laptop worked,
and the problem PC didn't. Same Key, Same entry. Same everything.
The other thing to check is what you are doing firewall wise.
Some like zone alarm particularly can selectively stomp
on the net access and produce effects like you are seeing.
See what happens with that turned off.

Same. I already checked this, and removed it from the possible causes.
It is something on the problem PC. Not outside it.
Can you move files between the laptop and desktop ?

Yes. Of course. back and forth.

Funex
 
R

Rod Speed

I checked with WEP off as well, and it still didn't work.
WEP and the Network is not the issue.
During this I changed WEP keys 5 times. Each time the Laptop worked,
and the problem PC didn't. Same Key, Same entry. Same everything.
Same. I already checked this, and removed it from the possible causes.

Then you should have said so with both of those.
It is something on the problem PC. Not outside it.

Dunno, thats not clear yet.
Yes. Of course. back and forth.

Then there cant be any problem with the wireless link or the wireless
card in the PC if you are doing those file moves over the wireless link.

What exactly happens when you try to access the internet from that PC ?
 
L

Leon Manfredi

Check to see if you've got a "viable network connection icon", in your control
panel's make network connection....if not, do and add connection....
 
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F

Funex

What exactly happens when you try to access the internet from that PC ?

I get the standard 'error page' that IE throws up when you can't
connect. Check DNS, press refresh, click here to detect network
settings. Nothing works.

Network neighborhood....get an error not able to connect to network,
check network troubleshooting.

Then, pop in the network cable, and everything works. Pop it out,
doesn't work. All the while the little wireless utility is steady
'green' connected, at 100% connectivity.
 
F

Funex

Check to see if you've got a "viable network connection icon", in your control
panel's make network connection....if not, do and add connection....

I run the 'add network connection' and it looks fine, but nothing
changes. Still can't connect. It says 'detecting proxy settings' and
all, and finishes, but nothing is created.

Funex
 
K

kony

OK. The computer running is win98SE, all patched up to date.

Socket 478 Celeron 1.7GHz.
MSI 651M mainboard
diamond monster sound mx400 in PCI slot

Try the card in the slot the sound card is in, and leave the
sound card out temporarily.

Linksys Wireless PCI card connects to Linksys home wireless router.

What evidence do you have that it connects?
I'm not doubting it (yet), but it might be useful for you to
expand a lot on these related parts. Likewise, I've snipped
things out of your post that shouldn't be related at all,
can be ignored.

300watt power supply. came with the case, which is MicroATX.

Voltage levels good on the 5V and 12V rails?

Everything's working great, until all of a sudden, no internet access.
No network connection. Everything else works, solitaire, the
calculator, everything. But no network. I reinstall windows, thinking
it's bad DUN or something. No work.

At this point, it was most important to not do any of the
things you did below, to leave the system static and do the
basic networking troubleshooting steps before changing
hardware. In that way we might have a better chance of
isolating it (by reducing variables, instead of increasing
them by adding even more hardware).

When you have no internet access, first thing to do is check
the signal strength. For all we know your neighbor might
have gotten a new 2.4GHz telephone and is on it all the
time. If signal strength is good, ping the router or other
computer, or try a LAN connection. Figure out at what point
you see the first indication of the network failing, NOT
what the result is- that you dont' have internet access.
Lack of internet access is only a result of the actual
problem.

OK. So, I troubleshoot, and put in a wired network card into the same
PCI slot as the wireless card. No access. Fine. I'll do it the hard
way. Reformat. reinstall win98, same problem!

Did the link lights on the NIC and the
switch/whatever-on-other-end, light? Did it have the right
IP range address assigned? What did (command prompt...)
IPCONFIG /ALL show?

Could it ping itself (it's IP address) ? How about anything
else on the lan? Could you pull up the router configuration
screen over HTTP (web browser)? Does your router/whatever
have a HTTP configuration screen? If you're using Windows
ICS instead of a router, can some other PC ping that one?
These are all standard troubleshooting steps to take before
reinstalling the OS or switching any hardware. Pick a
hardware and operating system configuration and leave it
alone, plug away at getting it working then proceed on to
trying the other one. Generally, the wired ethernet card
should be easier to get working... hopefully that card is
in a good/working state, as-in, it would work on some other
system or network if all things were right with it.

I took out the sound card, and moved the wired network card into that
PCI slot...success!

Hmm, I should read ahead more often. The
troubleshooting-networking stuff above still applies though.

Well, sort of. Now I have wired access. But I need
wireless. So, move the wireless card to the new slot and failure. No
network access. Swap back the wired card, access.
Put both cards in at the same time...access through the wired
connection only.

Well of course THEN, you will only have it bound to one
adapter at a time.

Fine. Its a bad wireless card I think. I happen to have a wireless PCI
card (new belkin in a box) lying around, so I pop it in, and....no go.

You might check on a bios update for your motherboard, but
it's way too early to conclude (blame) it's the problem, so
read any available bios notes on motherboard manufacturer's
site to see if anything stands out.

I should mention by the way that both cards did find the wireless
network SSID, allow the entry of the WEP key, connect to it, and show
'green' connections. But no network access!!!

What are you calling "network access"?
Did you try pinging anything/everything?
Does your router (or is it through an access point or ??)
show this system in it's connected-client list (if it has
one), or at least that card's MAC address?
So. Is it the motherboard?

I doubt it, would think odds are low but not impossible.

two bad wireless cards? One new in a box?

Also low odds, not impossible, but insufficient info about
the state of the wireless connections. Swapping these cards
around might've just confused windows, when you did the
reinstall was it overtop of an existing installation or a
clean install? Do you have the wireless card manufacturer's
utility installed? Often it doesn't install by default but
is on the same CD, or available on their website. Sometimes
it is installed but doesnt' run by default, you have to hunt
for it.
Also, I have a laptop, running a wireless PCMCIA card, and it's
working fine...so I know the "network" is there and working.

Working, but at good signal strength where this desktop is?
Desktops with PCI cards having antennas sticking out the
back, or especially the really cheap (tiny, thin) wifi cards
can have rather horrific range, dropping out even at medium
range. If your card isn't dropping down to a slower speed
already, see if the utility adjusts that and try for lower.
It could be that you have multiple problems, not just one
causing ALL of the issues you're seeing.
It confounds me. What am I missing here? Wired works. Wireless
doesn't? Could a motherboard fail like this?

If you had a really bad computer case, or the board was
canted funny on the standoffs so the cards weren't sitting
in the slots right, that might cause a problem, or if the
slots had a contact defect or a lot of gunk (like in a smoky
or other airborn polluted environment) then perhaps bad
contact with the cards. You'd probably be able to see this
though, if you had a good view of the board slot and a
strong flashlight.

Since there are a lot of variables we can't resolve, I won't
speculate further until we have more info about the state of
one of the cards, I suggest you pick the card you consider
the better of the two, put it back in and run the windows
"Internet Connection Wizard" or "Connect to Internet" (or
whatever it's called on Win98 I don't recall, but IIRC it's
off the start menu, maybe in Communications folder). Then
reboot windows- win98 loves to be rebooted.

Come to think of it, on win98 you have another tool besides
Ipconfig, it's on the start menu (start-> run -> (type)
"winipcfg" ).
 
F

Funex

Try the card in the slot the sound card is in, and leave the
sound card out temporarily.

Done. Wired works. wireless doesn't.

What evidence do you have that it connects?

The indicator is 'green'. It says 'connected, at 98-100% connectivity.

Voltage levels good on the 5V and 12V rails?


When you have no internet access, first thing to do is check
the signal strength.

Signal strength is fine. Laptop on wireless connects just fine.
Connection on problem pc is fine.


Did the link lights on the NIC and the
switch/whatever-on-other-end, light?

Yes. Router indicated that nic card was online, and nic card did light
up.
Did it have the right
IP range address assigned? What did (command prompt...)
IPCONFIG /ALL show?

No. Not with the wireless card. But even if I put in the regular nic
first, and set that up, actually, had both in at the same time, and
the wireless didn't work.

Could it ping itself (it's IP address) ? How about anything
else on the lan?

Itself yes. Anything else no. Well, actually, it could ping the
router, when I manually added a gateway and subnet mask. No DHCP
though.
Could you pull up the router configuration
screen over HTTP (web browser)? Does your router/whatever
have a HTTP configuration screen?

Not available on wireless. works with wired.

Hmm, I should read ahead more often. The
troubleshooting-networking stuff above still applies though.

Assume I did the troubleshooting stuff. I did a lot of troubleshooting
before asking here.


Well of course THEN, you will only have it bound to one
adapter at a time.

Or, not. I've had wired and wireless running at the same time on other
systems, and it worked just fine when I pulled either out. So, this is
just not applicable.

You might check on a bios update for your motherboard, but
it's way too early to conclude (blame) it's the problem, so
read any available bios notes on motherboard manufacturer's
site to see if anything stands out.

But why would it work yesterday, and not today?

What are you calling "network access"?

Umm. Anything relating to connecting over a network to anything other
than the problem computer. The physical 'network' is there. either
wired, or wireless. It works there. But the actual network access.
Connecting to another computer. Connecting to the internet. Pinging
anything other than itself.
Did you try pinging anything/everything?

Yes. Nothing but itself.
Does your router (or is it through an access point or ??)
show this system in it's connected-client list (if it has
one), or at least that card's MAC address?

Rout

Also low odds, not impossible, but insufficient info about
the state of the wireless connections. Swapping these cards
around might've just confused windows, when you did the
reinstall was it overtop of an existing installation or a
clean install?

Uninstall first, before installing new cards.
Do you have the wireless card manufacturer's
utility installed?

Yes. for both cards.

Working, but at good signal strength where this desktop is?

If you had a really bad computer case, or the board was
canted funny on the standoffs so the cards weren't sitting
in the slots right, that might cause a problem, or if the
slots had a contact defect or a lot of gunk (like in a smoky
or other airborn polluted environment) then perhaps bad
contact with the cards. You'd probably be able to see this
though, if you had a good view of the board slot and a
strong flashlight.

Can't see anything like that.

I suggest you pick the card you consider
the better of the two, put it back in and run the windows
"Internet Connection Wizard" or "Connect to Internet" (or
whatever it's called on Win98 I don't recall, but IIRC it's
off the start menu, maybe in Communications folder). Then
reboot windows- win98 loves to be rebooted.


Did this 7 times before asking here.

Come to think of it, on win98 you have another tool besides
Ipconfig, it's on the start menu (start-> run -> (type)
"winipcfg" ).

Winipconfig, and the DOS ipconfig all fix the problem. They just show
that the problem exists.

Funex.
 
C

CBFalconer

Merrill P. L. Worthington said:
Ignore the troll.

Must you quote his junk in its entirety? I have him plonked, and
all you are doing is giving him more publicity.
 
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M

Merrill P. L. Worthington

Ignore the troll.


Rod said:
Then you should have said so with both of those.




Dunno, thats not clear yet.




Then there cant be any problem with the wireless link or the wireless
card in the PC if you are doing those file moves over the wireless link.

What exactly happens when you try to access the internet from that PC ?
 
R

Rod Speed

I get the standard 'error page' that IE throws up when you can't
connect. Check DNS, press refresh, click here to detect network
settings. Nothing works.
Network neighborhood....get an error not able to
connect to network, check network troubleshooting.

You sure you can actually move files between
the PC and the laptop given that its saying that ?

This is important, because if you cant, the wireless
system has a problem and if you can, it doesnt.
Then, pop in the network cable, and everything works.
Pop it out, doesn't work. All the while the little wireless
utility is steady 'green' connected, at 100% connectivity.

Yes, but you appear to be saying that you cant see the laptop from the
PC and the reverse, with what you say about network neighbourhood.
Thats the opposite of what you said previously about moving files.

Its important because if you cant see the laptop from
the PC and the reverse, its likely some problem at the
Win level, rather than a hardware problem.

And you can get that variable effect with zone alarm.
 
F

Funex

You sure you can actually move files between
the PC and the laptop given that its saying that ?

The good PC (another PC) and the laptop have no problems with the
network. Nothing goes out from the bad PC, but the laptop and the good
pc can use the same network. Do you not understand what I'm saying?
This is important, because if you cant, the wireless
system has a problem and if you can, it doesnt.

3 computers. good pc, bad pc, and laptop. good pc and laptop use
wireless network fine. bad pc no conectee....understandee?

Yes, but you appear to be saying that you cant see the laptop from the
PC and the reverse, with what you say about network neighbourhood.
Thats the opposite of what you said previously about moving files.

No, I'm saying the bad pc is bad with wireless. wireless network
works, and you are the one misunderstanding what I'm writing.

Its important because if you cant see the laptop from
the PC and the reverse, its likely some problem at the
Win level, rather than a hardware problem.

Yes. Win level. Two installs. Fresh installs. Works with wireless,
doesn't work with wired. You are confused.

And you can get that variable effect with zone alarm.

Not installed. Ever. Sorry. Wrong on all counts.

Funex.
 
R

Rod Speed

The good PC (another PC) and the laptop have no problems
with the network. Nothing goes out from the bad PC, but the
laptop and the good pc can use the same network.

OK, thats nothing like what you said previously.
Do you not understand what I'm saying?

You said it too carelessly originally.

It wasnt even clear till now that you have two desktop
PCs, one that works fine and the other that doesnt.
3 computers. good pc, bad pc, and laptop. good pc and laptop
use wireless network fine. bad pc no conectee....understandee?

Yes, now you have made it clear that there is more than one desktop PC.

Most likely just the usual problem that Win can take a while to
add a new PC to an existing network once you do a clean install.

Have you got DHCP enabled on the router or do you use fixed IPs ?

Even if you have DHCP enabled on the router, if the bad PC cant actually
communicate with the router initially at boot time for whatever reason, it
wont be able to see the DHCP server and so will end up with a different
IP range and mask to the good PC and laptop, and that will prevent file
sharing from happening and net access too.

That would also explain why the wired config works too, it should then
see the DHCP server fine at boot time and will get a different IP.

Post the IP that its getting in the wireless config,
and the IP that the good PC and laptop have too.
No, I'm saying the bad pc is bad with wireless. wireless network
works, and you are the one misunderstanding what I'm writing.

Because you didnt even mention that there
is more than one desktop PC till now.
Yes. Win level. Two installs. Fresh installs.
Works with wireless, doesn't work with wired.

You've got that last sentance backwards.
You are confused.

Yes, because you have only now actually said that there are 3 computers.
Not installed. Ever. Sorry. Wrong on all counts.

Great way to get some assistence with your problem.
 
M

mhaase-at-springmind.com

You keep insisting that you've "done the troubleshooting", but you're
passing over giving us some important info:



It's possible for the wireless card to connect, accept the WEP key,
and show "connected", but if you're not getting correct
IP/Subnet/Gateway/DNS numbers (either from the Router's DHCP server,
or manually entered), you won't get anywhere on the internet.

So, is the router handing out good DHCP info, or are the working
unit(s) using static info?

What happens if you enter appropriate IP/Subnet/Gateway/DNS numbers
manually? Can you get to the internet then?


Also, what does this mean:
Winipconfig, and the DOS ipconfig all fix the problem. They just show
that the problem exists.


In another post, I think you said that you're able to copy files back
& forth between the problem machine, and another on the network. Is
that true?


Excuse us for questioning your troubleshooting technique, but from
your initial description, you re-installed Windows TWICE before you
even tried the basic troubleshooting step of replacing the wireless
NIC with a new (supposed good) one.

Then it seems like you go through the whole moving NICs from slot to
slot thing before doing the basic NETWORK troubleshooting that should
probably have been done even BEFORE swapping in a new Wireless NIC.

Now, if you DID do the steps I'm asking about, you should have
mentioned that....otherwise it seems like you're flailing wildly
around trying things at random. Not a very effective technique.

M
 
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M

Merrill P. L. Worthington

Ignore Rod Speed the troll.


Rod said:
You sure you can actually move files between
the PC and the laptop given that its saying that ?

This is important, because if you cant, the wireless
system has a problem and if you can, it doesnt.




Yes, but you appear to be saying that you cant see the laptop from the
PC and the reverse, with what you say about network neighbourhood.
Thats the opposite of what you said previously about moving files.

Its important because if you cant see the laptop from
the PC and the reverse, its likely some problem at the
Win level, rather than a hardware problem.

And you can get that variable effect with zone alarm.
 
M

mhaase-at-springmind.com

Sweet baby Jesus what an attitude this Chuckle-nuts Funex has!

I can't believe he actually makes Rod look like a nice guy! <g>.

I've gotta agree with Mr. Speed -- funny way to ask for assistance.
 
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F

Funex

Most likely just the usual problem that Win can take a while to
add a new PC to an existing network once you do a clean install.

I waited.
Have you got DHCP enabled on the router or do you use fixed IPs ?
DHCP

Even if you have DHCP enabled on the router, if the bad PC cant actually
communicate with the router initially at boot time for whatever reason, it
wont be able to see the DHCP server and so will end up with a different
IP range and mask to the good PC and laptop, and that will prevent file
sharing from happening and net access too.

That would also explain why the wired config works too, it should then
see the DHCP server fine at boot time and will get a different IP.


My understanding is that the router doesn't care if it's a cable, or
wireless. The connection is the same, except for the security
protocols, which are entered correctly.

So, for all intensive purposes, this is a wired connection that's
failing without wires.
 

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