SP2 Not a Problem; it's a Learning Curve

[Sandman]

We have been cautioned here that myself and others are over exaggerating
the 'problems' with SP2;
One MVP told me it has 'a learning curve' and further, we must learn more
about how to use our computers. That SP2 is a stable and solid product..(i
didn't say that)

So, in reading here, i see others are being told to do some or all of the
following.. (in no particular order)
Go to the website of your hardware provider (assuming you even know who
the OEM company that provides the various components are) find the part # of
the hardware and see if there is a patch, firmware or whatever..
Disable This before doing That.. Uninstall This... Then Re-install That.
.....Re-configure This. reload your USB support. Delete your USB entrees in
control Panel first.... Buy a newer graphics card. Defrag Delete
Update...............................isn't this fun?...

Then you might have to find the homepage of the software provider who
sells the particular program you have that doesn't function now and see what
they say.. More fun. But wait; Microsoft has provided a long list of
'incompatibilities'.......
This reminds me, however vaguely, of the Roxio debacle when XP was first
released some years ago.. The 'native burning software' was a horribly
hobbled version of some Roxio stuff that didn't function very well and Roxio
spent alot of time and money trying to patch it i would bet. In all fairness
i must add that it finally got 'fixed' but not before a lot of angry people
like me invaded this Newsgroup and Roxios' looking for some relief.
Downloading compatibility patches, more than several too....Some of the
problems were as serious as affecting Control Panel.....It was clearly
messy....Microsoft said very little compared to Roxio....

But, stop whining and 'put a diaper on it' You wimps,!!!!!! remember,
I was admonished, (to repeat what I was told) this is an opportunity to
'learn more about your PC" and take the time to adjust to the learning curve
that MVP mentioned. Most people will probably never have reason to take the
side panel off their PC and wouldn't know a PCI slot from an IDE connector;
they just want the machine to do it all and that includes software; in this
situation, SP2.

Yes, I too come here for help, and like one MVP said, 'you don't see
healthy people going to hospitals; i.e. people who are not sick, (yup, it is
a very good help newsgroup overall) but i do get a sick feeling when someone
seems to be an apologist for Microsoft by telling me what I am saying is
incorrect and wrong and further, the problems brought here about SP2 are NOT
problems with the patch, but a 'learning curve'..
It is a patch, pure and simple.. And all that that term entails.

Luckily, my Windows XP Pro install is very stable and i believe XP is
the very best OS Redmond has done.. Without a doubt....! Microsoft can't be
blamed, honestly, for all the hackers, trojans etc etc who have messed with
it and will continue to do so, across the Web, yet I will take my chances,
for the foreseeable future anyway, and wait awhile before installing this
Service Pack...
The rest of you; Good Luck.

 

[Jupiter Jones [MVP]]

There is a very easy way to avoid all the possible installation issues
with SP-2.
There would be no hardware or software compatibility issues.

Order a NEW computer from a reliable OEM already shipping Windows XP
with SP-2 already installed.
They would have verified all compatibility issues and resolved them in
advance.
The computers would all be free of viruses, spyware and other malware
causing much of the SP-2 installation issues.
This is something relatively easy for the OEM but impossible for
Microsoft.
Microsoft has no control what software is already installed, useful or
malware.
There is an almost limitless variety of hardware, again, Microsoft has
no control here.
Since no two computers are identical, it would be impossible for
Microsoft (or any other group) to test anything including a Service
Pack on all configurations.

You seem to scoff at the learning curve.
Can you name anything at all with a degree of complexity that has no
learning curve?
Once you determine that, perhaps you can help Microsoft to eliminate
the necessary learning curve with an update such as SP-2.

Service Pack 2 installs with no problems on most computers.
For the others, it may be time for the users to learn more about the
computer or take the computer to a reputable technician.
But no one suggested the installation would be flawless on all
computers.

Finally, luck has nothing to do with it.
Taking proper care of the computer is the best.
Those who rely on luck are more prone to SP-2 issues since they are
not relying on intelligent computing.

 

[Mike H]

Everything has a learning curve.. VCRs, washing machines, telephones,
cameras, stereos, car radios all require input from the user.. to get the
most out of them requires looking through the manual.. so why not a home
computer?..

Take a 'point n'shoot' camera as an example.. it auto focuses, auto adjusts
for light, auto senses if flash is required, auto loads film, auto rewinds,
auto winds.. APS could do way more, so what can possibly go wrong?.. it
doesn't auto point at a subject and cut out the trash can in the corner of
the proposed picture, remove the tree that appears to be growing from the
subjects head, add legs, feet, hands and arms, heads, add interesting
backgrounds, cut out the idiot in the background who is making faces.. auto
load batteries that are fully charged.. a guy that I knew handed me a
Rolleiflex 2.8F and asked if I could set it up to take good pictures almost
anywhere and in any conditions.. I offered him $30 to buy it from him.. he
declined of course as he had paid way more for it, but as I explained,
unless he was prepared to learn about photography, he would never get much
out of it.. he never did..

The more that you put into something, the more that you get out.. that law
is older than the ten commandments..

 

[Ellen]

Sandman,

Thank you so much for posting that. Too bad this forum
doesn't move topics to the top, we'd be able to easily
view all the SP2 incompatibility issues at once

Yes, appliances and cars have learning curves, but the
manufacturer doesn't expect the buyer to know the
workings of the INSIDE!! If so, we'd be spending all our
waking hours studying up on how engines work, and
blenders and microwaves and blow dryers, etc., leaving no
time for our paying jobs so we could buy the stuff! The
MVP who suggested we buy a new PC was condescending and
unprofessional.

Microsoft forced the SP2 on me with no warning of all its
PROBLEMS.

It's a terrible way to do business, but when you are the
only game in town you don't have to care what
inconvenience you cause the paying customer.

Again, thank you Sandman, and good luck. I'm hoping the
uninstall of SP2 will be much less painful.

BTW, I'm a webmaster & keep my computer up-to-date and
virus free. Plus, I already had to buy all new software &
a new scanner when I purchased my newest computer with XP
onboard. And now the MVP suggests we purchase a new
computer!? Unbelieveable!

 

[NoNoBadDog!]

Microsoft *TWICE* delayed posting SP2 to windows Update to give *System
Administrators* time to set their network to *NOT* automatically update if
they were wary of installing SP2. Apparently you were not on the planet
during the time that Microsoft was posting both the scheduled deployment
date and instructions on how to set your computer(s) up to *NOT*
automatically update.

FWIW; I have 28 machines of varying vintages and configurations, and I
deployed SP2 successfully to each of them. I had only one minor glitch with
a NIC card in one machine, and that was fixed with a driver update (the
problem was the NIC cards drivers and NOT SP2). I did a little homework
before I made my decision to upgrade, and I made sure that I had a good
image of each workstation prior to upgrade.


Bobby

 

[SebianGeek]

I have seen the MS article that points out the programs and games that
are not compatable with SP2. Alot of what is on that list are some
very common programs (i.e. many symantec products, several MS
products, Unreal Tournament). Not to mention I have seen lists of
CPU’s that will require BIOS updates (P4 Prescott?!) in order for SP2
to work correctly. Microsoft could have done a little more
troubleshooting, and research to make sure their customers have a
little less trouble installing a patch.

I found a web site that is pretty detailed on some of the SP2 issues.

http://www.michna.com/kb/WxSP2.htm#Boot_problems_after_Service_Pack_2_installation


Hopefully XP does not turn into another WINME, because I personally
like XP.

 

[Jupiter Jones [MVP]]

What you feel about the idea of a new computer does not change the
facts.
If you feel the idea was "condescending and unprofessional", that is
your opinion about another fact.

Do you want SP-2 with minimal problems and fully functional
immediately?
Or are you able to learn a little bit and do what is necessary to get
an existing computer working with SP-2?
If someone is incapable or unwilling to do the second, how is that
"condescending and unprofessional" to suggest they may need a new
computer?
That would be a bad choice for many, but if they want it all and now,
that is their choice and not Microsoft's or anyone else's.
Or are you closed minded to possible options?

Is there any major software of any kind available that would not pose
similar problems if installation was attempted on a nearly infinite
variety of computers in this large a number?
That is exactly why many buy computers specifically to support a
mission essential item.

If you feel "Microsoft forced the SP-2 on me with no warning of all
its PROBLEMS", you did not take the time to learn about SP-2 in the
months before release.
Microsoft alone had published a great deal of data about SP-2 in the
months preceding release.
If you did not know it was only because you did not look for the easy
to find information.

 

[Ellen]

I work on the internet daily and know much more about
computers than the average user. Those average users are
paying to keep Microsoft in business. SP2 should not have
been released until it was ready. We'll see what happens;
maybe it will install smoothly for most. It's too soon to
tell.

I take issue with anyone suggesting that it's the
customer's responsibility to know the intricate workings
of a complex product. Maintenence yes; beyond that, the
responsibilty lies with the manufacturer.

 

[Ellen]

Not all of us ON THE PLANET are network administrators.
Not all of us ON THE PLANET were told by Microsoft to set
Automatic Update to "OFF"

Are you so immersed in working on computers that you have
forgotten (or maybe never knew) that computers are used
(and purchased) by people for hundreds or thousands of
purposes? People with busy lives. Working people with
little time to research & learn how to configure their
computers. I assume you've been in the field for years.
Try to empathise and try to remember how many hours you
logged to gain the knowledge you have.

Ya know, I couldn't get that Automatic Update to work for
two years. Every week or two I had to go to Windows
Update to get my updates. All of a sudden I'm getting the
biggest download of my computing life and couldn't stop
it! It's not just me. I've read about it on other forums.
Anyway, now I have Automatic Update lol

 

[Jupiter Jones [MVP]]

Ellen;
I do not know where to draw the line.
Obviously nothing or everything are out of the question.
However all users need to learn something.
Many do not even learn the minimums as shown by the number of viruses
and other malware caught on their computers.

Users need to be knowledgeable of hardware drivers and software
updates since these needs are often driven by the particular habits of
the computer user.
Simply buying a new piece of software can necessitate hardware and
other software updates.

A great many issues could be prevented by the basic knowledge many
neglect.
The fault here goes several directions.
The manufacturers could give more information with the computers...but
would the users take time to absorb it.
The sales people could do more to educate...but that is throwing
negative aspects often bad for sales.
New users could take time to learn more...often they do not know it is
necessary until something happens.
The list can go on and on.

 

[NoNoBadDog!]

You miss the point....Microsoft went to great lengths to make sure that
those that were not "ready" for SP2 would not get it. The choice was yours.
You were not *FORCED* to take it. You had the option of turning off
automatic updates, which MS recommended if you had any doubts about
upgrading. No one came into your home/office and put a gun to your head.
You did not have to accept the balloon when it came up telling you about the
download. You had more than one way to stop it. The fault is yours, not
Microsoft's. I have 28 machines of varying vintages and configurations that
I am responsible for. I read the recommendations from Microsoft. I made
sure that my computers were up to date with BIOS, drivers, etc. I checked
to see if there would be any conflict with my existing hardware. I made
sure prior to installation of SP2 that there were no issues with any of the
machines and the existing installation of Windows. Finally, I made sure
that I imaged each of the drives before I allowed them to be upgraded. You
did none of this. On all 28 of my machines, the installation went
flawlessly. I had a minor problem on one machine after reboot, but
reinstalling the NIC driver solved that. Each of the 28 machines is running
smoothly, and many are noticeably faster than before.

I have no sympathy for you. You attitude is such that you feel like
Microsoft left you no choice but to install, which is completely false. IF
you truly feel that violated, then I strongly recommend that you wipe your
drive an install your preferred flavor of Linux. IF you can;t even handle a
user-friendly OS like Windows, you certainly could not handle any of the
other OSes out there.

You were not violated. You were lazy.

Bobby

 

[Ted Zieglar aka Rocky]

"I take issue with anyone suggesting that it's the customer's responsibility
to know the intricate workings of a complex product."

No one said that it is. And no one has to in order to use Windows
successfully.

It is, however, the customer's responsibility to read the information about
SP 2 that Microsoft has made freely available, which information has been
widely repeated in the mainstream press, and to prepare accordingly. It is
also the customer's responsibility to learn how to use their computer
correctly.

Computers are very different from televisions or toasters. To anyone who is
not prepared to invest the time and effort needed to learn how to use their
computer: Stick with a typewriter.

Ted Zieglar

 

[Michael W. Ryder]

Ellen;
I do not know where to draw the line.
Obviously nothing or everything are out of the question.
However all users need to learn something.
Many do not even learn the minimums as shown by the number of viruses
and other malware caught on their computers.

Users need to be knowledgeable of hardware drivers and software
updates since these needs are often driven by the particular habits of
the computer user.
Simply buying a new piece of software can necessitate hardware and
other software updates.

A great many issues could be prevented by the basic knowledge many
neglect.
The fault here goes several directions.
The manufacturers could give more information with the computers...but
would the users take time to absorb it.
The sales people could do more to educate...but that is throwing
negative aspects often bad for sales.
New users could take time to learn more...often they do not know it is
necessary until something happens.
The list can go on and on.

I have to wonder why everyone is expected to spend so much time to keep
a personal computer running when other computers can run for years
without ever having to be turned off, rebooted or patched. I am
expected to spend hours trying to decide if SP2 is right for my computer
(and may still be wrong) when I have not had to patch our RS/6000 in the
2 years since we bought it. I realize that part of the stability of
most other PCs is the fact that they don't just allow anyone to make
hardware for their computers. Microsoft could do something similar with
"certified" hardware and state that any updates from them may "break"
uncertified hardware.
I can still remember the debacle of Microsoft's NT SP2 release. How
many professional computer people got burned badly by that disaster? Do
not say that it is the operator's problem to make sure that the SP will
work correctly. If Microsoft is not sure that something will work why
don't they warn the operator and then let them take the chance like they
do with the initial install of XP?

 

[NoNoBadDog!]

If you are *SO* busy that you cannot take the time to learn at least some
basic computer skills, and develop at least a basic understanding of how to
keep your computer "healthy", then perhaps you should just stick with a
calculator and an etch-a-sketch.
Many people out there with less skill than yourself have taken the time to
read the recommendations from MS, to ask questions here before deciding to
allow the download, and at least made sure that they had backed up important
files before attempting the download. You could have cancelled the
download. You could have chosen NOT to install once the download was
complete. You could have chosen to make sure that Automatic Updates were
off. *YOU* had to turn on Automatic Updates. Microsoft did not turn it on
remotely (unless *YOU* went to the WU page and selected that option). No
one came into your home and put a gun to your head and forced you to
download and install SP2. If your skill are so very limited and your time
so very precious that you could not have taken any of these actions, then
you simply should not own a computer. You are ultimately responsible for
anything and everything that happens on your computer. You were not
helpless at any point in this situation. You were not forced to accept the
download or proceed with the install. You were not forced to make the
decision to not back up your data. If you had expended *HALF* the time you
have spent whining on these newsgoups reading the recommendations published
by Microsoft *BEFORE* SP2 was made available, or spent that energy making a
backup of your important data, then you would not have the problems you have
now. YOU are to blame, not MS.

Bobby

 

[Mike H]

Your RS6000 is not expected to do anything like the different tasks that are
asked of pc's.. it is probably running customized software and doing one
task in a controlled environment that is not subject to repeated attacks by
those who would like to see an end to AIX or discredit IBM in a way that
Windows and MS suffers..

Imagine trying to build a car out of a variety of parts from different
manufacturers.. without knowledge, the result would not be anything close to
a Chrysler 300M.. so why is it that we expect MS to be responsible for what
we have cobbled together using pc parts and support software?

I do not understand why so many people expect to take ownership of a highly
technical instrument without the need to learn anything about how it works..
nobody is expecting users to be able to build their own pc or identify all
of the components on the motherboard, but a little routine maintenance
should not be above computer users..

As car drivers, we are expected to walk around the vehicle before driving
it.. checking that tires are properly inflated, that no cords or gashes are
there, that lights works, that no bodywork is hanging off or in a dangerous
state, that windshield washers are full and working, that windshield wipers
are capable of removing water.. and when we start the vehicle, we check the
gauges to see if we have gas, oil, water, try out the brake pedal, and if
anything requires attention, we look in the manual.. better still, look at
the manual first and then get into a regime of basic maintenance..

And I don't want to hear that people don't do any of this because they are
too busy, or too old.. complete bullshit, that is.. the simple truth is that
when anything goes wrong, most blame anybody but themselves for what has to
be a lack of research and ability on their own part..


Mike H

 

[Ellen]

If you are *SO* busy that you cannot take the time to
learn at least some basic computer skills

I know most basic computer skills. I work with people
almost daily who are new to computing and/or have had
their computers for years, but gave up because they
couldn't find help. God forbid someone new to computing
should run into someone as closed minded and arrogant as
yourself. I'm guess this is the only area in your life
that you feel superior, otherwise you'd have some
humility.

keep your computer "healthy", then perhaps you should

just stick with a calculator and an etch-a-sketch.

Proving your immaturity now.

have taken the time to read the recommendations from MS,
to ask questions here

You have any statistics to back up that assertion?

The download came w/o warning. My Automatic Updates
hasn't worked in a year or so. But I chose to let it load
& give it a shot.
important files before attempting the download.

I never said anything about losing important files. Moot
point.

I chose to allow it to continue.
was complete.

I chose to install it (trusting Microsoft, of course).
Updates were off.

They've never worked! lol

I WANTED auto updates. Wanted them for a long, long time.
Tried unsuccessfully to enable them repeatedly. I've been
computing for 5 years and never had a problem with auto
update before. I loved the feature.
went to the WU page and selected that option).

Possibly, but it never worked in the past. Would it have
been so difficult for Microsoft to offer the option
to "resume download later"?
and forced you to download and install SP2.

Never said they did.
very precious that you could not have taken any of these
actions

Gee, your important actions referred to thus far amounts
to A) download & install SP2 or 2) do not download &
install SP2

Yes, simply.
everything that happens on your computer.

Not everything, from a legal point of view. THe
manufacturer has some responsibility to the customer to
provide a working product & one that doesn't require
installing items that require additional cost to fix as a
result.

Didn't say I was. Frustrated with the lack of concern on
Microsoft's part. (And with your rudeness)
with the install.

You're repeating yourself.
up your data.

Again, repeating yourself & I never mentioned a thing
about "not backing up".
whining on these newsgoups

I believe this is my third visit in 5 years to any
newsgroup! (that should tell you something about my
concern re SP2) My second visit was last week about my
modem slowing to a crawl after installing SP2.
*BEFORE* SP2 was made available

Must we as consumers read about critical updates to
airplane engines before flying? Must paying customers
read up on the inner workings of our X-Box before we
allow our kids to use it? Of course not. There's a big
difference between general maintenance and
compatibilty/configuration issues.

SP2 was released prematurely and caused much
inconvenience to those of us who have lives away from our
computers as well as on them. But you couldn't possibly
understand that now could you, Bobby So much for
empathy.

 

[Ellen]

Repeating yourself again. Do you have some kind of
glitch?

 

[Ellen]

You make a very good point. I've raved about XP for two
years. Couldn't believe how flawlessly it performed,
especially after using 98 for 2 years. Now this.
Something went wrong & to pass the buck to the consumer
is unethical.

 

[Ellen]

I read the news daily, but usually local &
national/international politics. I saw the headlines
about SP2's release, but never imagined the articles
contained info directing us to Microsoft's site before
attempting an install.

So, you are saying all computer users should follow any
news articles re Microsoft? We both know that's not
realistic. I'll do it from now on, because I need my
computer for work. But most computer users will not.
Microsoft knows that and should service their customers
accordingly.

 

[Jupiter Jones [MVP]]

There is no way at all Microsoft could test all possible
configurations.
There is a large number of Windows XP computers in the world and no
two identical.
Unfortunately the best way to insure a flawless installation of SP-2
is from the original configuration of the computer, hardware and
software.
That would mean a Clean Installation of Windows XP immediately before
installing a Service Pack.
Since that is not practical, there was extensive testing on a wide
range of configurations.

"I have not had to patch our RS/6000..." Or just have not?
What is the need to patch based?

Microsoft has done a great deal to inform users of possible issues in
advance, some is on this link:
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar/xpsp2.htm

As far as "certified" hardware, Microsoft already has the Hardware
Compatibility List:
http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/hcl/default.mspx?gssnb=1

OEMs take care of their own compatibility issues.
However when we build our own or change from original we often do not
follow the HCL.
Not all manufacturers follow the requirements or pay for the extensive
testing necessary to be added to the HCL.

How much is someone expected to do?
That depends on many factors.
If they bought an OEM computer and kept it original, there is little
they need to do.
The more they change from original the more they may need to do when
it comes time for an update.
If you built your own, that research may be a great deal.