SP2, DEP, 32 BIT CPU. How to test?

G

Guest

In SP2 I can see a new option DEP even for CPU which don't have NX bit
support. I'd like to test somehow if this protection really works. I've found
only this http://user.cs.tu-berlin.de/~normanb/ but this utility break my DEP
protection. I have 32 bit CPU Athlon XP, and software DEP is enabled for all
applications.
 
R

Robert Moir

eMKo said:
In SP2 I can see a new option DEP even for CPU which don't have NX bit
support. I'd like to test somehow if this protection really works.
I've found only this http://user.cs.tu-berlin.de/~normanb/ but this
utility break my DEP protection. I have 32 bit CPU Athlon XP, and
software DEP is enabled for all applications.

If you "only" have a 32bit processor then you do not have hardware support
for DEP which is why that app won't show a favourable result.
 
N

NoNoBadDog!

DEP will not work with *ANY* 32 bit CPU. DEP will only work with AMD64
processors.

Bobby
 
G

Guest

Thanks, but now I'd like to know what is "software DEP" in my Windows. And
when this feature can help protect my OS. And still I'm looking for some kind
of test application.
 
G

Guest

Thanks for your reply
So, this test is only for hardware DEP. But in real situation, can I depend
on software DEP too? I mean it will software DEP protect me against malware
code same or similar as hardware DEP? For instance against Blaster worm etc.
And finally do you know any application which test software DEP protection?
 
N

NoNoBadDog!

DEP is explained on the AMD website...basically it protects you against a
specific class of worms that depend on buffer overruns in order to gains
control of the system. It is a *HARDWARE* based solution, so there is no
"software" based DEP as you claim. I have no idea how you came to believe
that there is a software based version, but it does not exist. You can only
have DEP if you have an AMD64 processor, and you do not have one. There is
no support of any kind for DEP on any other processor.

Bobby
 
G

Guest

Check this link
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/winxppro/maintain/sp2mempr.mspx

"Software-enforced DEP

An additional set of data execution prevention security checks have been
added to Windows XP SP2. These checks, known as software-enforced DEP, are
designed to mitigate exploits of exception handling mechanisms in Windows.
Software-enforced DEP runs on any processor which is capable of running
Windows XP SP2. By default, software-enforced DEP only protects limited
system binaries, regardless of the hardware-enforced DEP capabilities of the
processor."
 
N

NoNoBadDog!

Okay, having read the page, here is what I am able to say...

quoted from the link you posted:

"
Software-enforced DEP

Software-enforced DEP performs additional checks on exception handling
mechanisms in Windows. If the program's image files are built with Safe
Structured Exception Handling (SafeSEH), software-enforced DEP ensures that
before an exception is dispatched, the exception handler is registered in
the function table located within the image file.

If the program's image files are not built with SafeSEH, software-enforced
DEP ensures that before an exception is dispatched, the exception handler is
located within a memory region marked as executable."



If you read what it says, it says that it will only operate with apps that
are written using SafeSEH encoding, that will specify what handles in the
active function table is located. In this instance, it will monitor the
execution of exception handlers and limit their ability to execute code
outside what is in the table. What this means is that if a person wrote a
piece of malware that INCLUDED a portion of the stack that he wanted to
crash in his exception handler, then the S/W based DEP would allow this to
occur. Not much protection there. In the last sentence, it states that in
the absence of SafeSEH image files, the program will simply be terminated.
It this means that a handle is called in for instance the RPC stack, then
the RPC stack will simply be terminated. Sound familiar? It should.
SASSER depended on a buffer overrun to cause a failure of the RPC stack with
an exception handler that pointed to a piece of code that would count down
and shut down the computer. So, having read the above paragraph, it simply
terminates the stack without the exception handler, but then your computer
will have to be rebooted. Not much protection there. I would not even want
to test this "software-based DEP". I would caution you that what you are
worrying yourself over is only very slightly better than no protection at
all. I would not depend on it to do anything other than perhaps render the
computer unusable until it is rebooted. I would rather have a SPI firewall
and an up to date antivirus app than depend on the questionable benefit of
"software-based DEP".



You must understand that the hardware DEP is something valuable. It simply
will not allow the execution of any code that attempts to cause an execution
or buffer overrun that will cause a failure of a heap or a stack. It won't
terminate the process, it will simply not allow the exception handler to
access anything outside the hardware protected execution area. This means
that the computer will not be affected by the type of code that depends on
the failure of a heap or a stack to execute. Your computer will continue to
function as normal, with no ill effect from the offending code. With the
software based DEP, the exception could still gain control of your system,
and if the code is not written with the proper image files, then the stack
or heap will terminate, which is what the malicious code intended to do.



If you are truly concerned about using DEP, I would urge you to get an AMD64
based computer. The only "real" DEP protection depends on the Processor
having the necessary hardware to run it. The "software-enabled DEP" seems
to serve no useful purpose, and I think it was probably added as a way to
save Intel from the embarrassing fact that their chips cannot support
hardware based DEP. Intel is losing market share steadily to AMD, and this
is yet another reason, among many, that they are rightfully losing share.



Bobby
 
C

cquirke (MVP Win9x)

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 21:22:28 -1000, "NoNoBadDog!"
I have no idea how you came to believe that there is a software
based version, but it does not exist.

Perhaps because it's offered as an option in the dialog box? I see
that on my Prescott Celeron PC (doesn't have hware NX support either).

Bad dog, no biscuit! This is a WYSIWYG risk failure, i.e. having an
UI that claims a protective feature that you won't actually have.

-- Risk Management is the clue that asks:
"Why do I keep open buckets of petrol next to all the
ashtrays in the lounge, when I don't even have a car?"
 
N

NoNoBadDog!

It's smoke and mirrors on a 32 bit processor...read the link that the OP
posted, and then read my response.


Bobby
 
C

cquirke (MVP Win9x)

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 03:05:55 -1000, "NoNoBadDog!"
It's smoke and mirrors on a 32 bit processor...read the link that the OP
posted, and then read my response.

Ah, well at least there's the substance of smoke to it - I thought it
might be 100% clear air, i.e. just an empty UI with nil behind it.

Speaking of empty UI: Ever tried rt-click, Properties, Tools, Check
for errors on a FATxx volume? This does absolutely nothing at all!

I tested that on a number of PCs with FAT32 and FAT16 volumes,
expecting it to run ChkDsk. It doesn't appear to do that; instead,
immediately says "no errors found". And when I do a Scandisk on the
same volumes, directly after a proper shutdown, it finds errors.

Now there's a non-reflective mirror with not even smoke in it.


------------ ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
The most accurate diagnostic instrument
in medicine is the Retrospectoscope
 
R

Robert Moir

NoNoBadDog! said:
It's smoke and mirrors on a 32 bit processor...read the link that the
OP posted, and then read my response.

Its better than nothing - just not by very much at all.
 

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments. After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.

Ask a Question

Top