So I have the P4 1.6, 512 megs of DDR, geforce 4600ti, what more for gaming?


F

Fred

So I have the P4 1.6, 512 megs of DDR, geforce 4600ti, and a nice
soundblaster PCI something-or-rather.

What more can I do that will allow me to set everything to highest for
games (ie Medal of Honor)? Get a XEON?
 
S

Strontium

Have you considered the importance of the video card, in this scenario?

-
Fred stood up, at show-n-tell, and said:
 
J

JK

He said that he has a ti4600 card, which is quite good. Of course a
faster processor and dual ddr motherboard would help. I suggest
an Athlon XP2600+ 333 and an nForce2 motherboard. One can
get the pair for around $200. An nForce2 motherboard works best
with two matching sticks of PC2700(or faster) ddr ram.
 
S

Strontium

I had cancelled this post, after realizing that. Thanks for reposting it.

-
JK stood up, at show-n-tell, and said:

-Snip-
 
D

DVR

Thanks for the response. Would going with the Athlon only be for $$$
reasons? In my research I've seen lots of conclusions showing P4
outperforming Athlon 2600+. One example is on Tom's hardware where the 2600+
was benchmarked against P4 2.8 at
http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/20020826/p4_2800-16.html#conclusion_change_in_power:

"...the Athlon XP 2600+ could outperform the Intel P4/2533 in numerous
benchmark tests. Now, Intel sends its P4/2800 into the fray. In this
situation, the AMD processor takes the lead in only one of the benchmark
disciplines, namely, 3D rendering under Cinema 4D XL R7. In all other
categories with different applications, the P4 tops the Athlon XP."

Additionally, I already have two sticks of DDR 266 and would hate to spend
the $$$ on DDR 333. Would saving the cash and not buying DDR 333 make
purchasing a board with those specs (and the 2600+ chip) not worth it ?

Thanks again.

JK said:
He said that he has a ti4600 card, which is quite good. Of course a
faster processor and dual ddr motherboard would help. I suggest
an Athlon XP2600+ 333 and an nForce2 motherboard. One can
get the pair for around $200. An nForce2 motherboard works best
with two matching sticks of PC2700(or faster) ddr ram.
 
S

Strontium

Just my 0.02...

That 800 FSB combined with the 400MHz memory bandwidth is kicking ass.
I've said 'bye bye' to AMD. I'm one of those that always hailed AMD.
This is the first box I've built, based on the wIntel solution. I gotta
say...I DO NOT MISS AMD. You wanna save cash, go AMD...good bang/buck.
You want a ****ing RIG, go wIntel. Your choice, dude. In the end, that's
what it comes down to. I gotta say, I'm still amazed by this performance
of the HT system. I feel like I could tell it to get me a beer, and it
would! But, then again, I'm a gamer...what are you gonna use this box
for?


PS - I just got 1360 3DMarks, in 3DMark03 with my crappy (not so) Asus GF3
Ti200 (250/550). I topped the list. Funny, that. I was expecting like
800...nope, I freaking blew everyone with my setup away....freaky.


YMMV!

-
DVR stood up, at show-n-tell, and said:
 
D

DVR

I'll use it for gaming. So which P4 are you running 2.4 - 3.0? How much
RAM - dual DDR?

I'm downloading 3DMarks now to see where I'm at. Do you have freeware or
full version? Is there a difference?

I'll let you know what I get....
 
S

Strontium

I'm running P4 2.4C with PC3200 Samsung. Stock settings. It rocks my
balls off. Seriously. Gaming is this beast's total destiny. And, by
GOD, it's living upu to it.

DDR400 buddy boy :) Dual channel config.

The benchmark has no difference between registered/trial

However, don't run it if you have a slow (by my standards:) system. You,
really, need to use several tools to tell where you're at 1) performance
measured by YOU. Can you see a difference? This is the most important
benchmark, IMO 2) 3dmark2001SE to give you a baseline of your video card.
It will show you if you have a bottleneck, other than the video card, or
not. 3) gaming....no substitute, for this dude. I suggest the UT2003
demo. Only bad side to that, there is no place where ppl compare
scores...kinda sux to run a badass benchmark then be told you can't
compare it to others in a database lol.

Anyway, my box is rocking...with a shitty little GF3Ti200 OC'd to 250/550

I keep expecting to see smoke coming out of the back of my case. When I
get my ATI 9700, I'm gonna take all my smoke alarms out, in the house.
This Bitch is gonna rock (not that it already doesn't).

It's so freaking fast, that I am bored with the games! NIGHTMARE!


-
DVR stood up, at show-n-tell, and said:
 
S

Strontium

Depends what you mean by 'board'. Never get cocky, with WinBlows... From
a veteran.

Take it, for what it's worth 0.

-
DVR stood up, at show-n-tell, and said:
 
J

JK

DVR said:
Thanks for the response. Would going with the Athlon only be for $$$
reasons? In my research I've seen lots of conclusions showing P4
outperforming Athlon 2600+.


One example is on Tom's hardware where the 2600+
Please don't make me laugh. There are other websites.

http://www.hothardware.com/hh_files/CCAM/amd_axp_2600(3).shtml
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/athlonxp-3000.html
http://www.lostcircuits.com/



was benchmarked against P4 2.8 at
http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/20020826/p4_2800-16.html#conclusion_change_in_power:

"...the Athlon XP 2600+ could outperform the Intel P4/2533 in numerous
benchmark tests. Now, Intel sends its P4/2800 into the fray. In this
situation, the AMD processor takes the lead in only one of the benchmark
disciplines, namely, 3D rendering under Cinema 4D XL R7. In all other
categories with different applications, the P4 tops the Athlon XP."
Additionally, I already have two sticks of DDR 266 and would hate to spend
the $$$ on DDR 333. Would saving the cash and not buying DDR 333 make
purchasing a board with those specs (and the 2600+ chip) not worth it ?

Thanks again.
 
S

Stacey

JK said:
Wrote 2/10, months before the 800Mhz FSB intel chips were out.



Lets see something recent that claims a 3200 AMD chips outperforms a 3.0-800
P4 much less deserves it's inflated rating..

http://www.anandtech.com/cpu/showdoc.html?i=1834

"The review community unanimously agreed that the processor was not
deserving of its 3200+ rating, but none were as infuriated by AMD's model
number than the folks at Intel."
 
J

JK

I was talking about the XP2600+, and you brought up the XP3200+.

Here is another review of the XP3200+.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/athlonxp-3200.html

I usually don't recommend that people buy the top model of processor,
as the performance is usually just slightly higher than a model lower,
while the price is much higher. People should consider the ratio
of performance/price for the products they are considering in
the applications they plan to run.
 
S

Stacey

JK said:
I was talking about the XP2600+, and you brought up the XP3200+.

Here is another review of the XP3200+.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/athlonxp-3200.html
From your link

"Nevertheless, it looks as if the upcoming announcement of the new Pentium 4
3.2GHz in June could turn the scale in Intel's favor again, unless AMD
introduces faster CPUs."

BTW this benchmark was done before Asus enabled PAT (+5-8%) on that board
with a bios upgrade. Guess you wouldn't want to read/post reviews where
they actually had an optimised Intel setup?

So it appears while in some benchamrks runs like a 3.0 intel, they decided
to call it a 3200+ for marketing reasons... Like I said it doesn't deserve
it's 3200 rating. Interesting that in the apps it beat the P-4, the XP2400
beat the XP3200! But then you'll claim this isn't a fault with their rating
system...
I usually don't recommend that people buy the top model of processor,
as the performance is usually just slightly higher than a model lower,
while the price is much higher.
And in this case higher than the better performing P4.
 
J

JK

Stacey said:
From your link

"Nevertheless, it looks as if the upcoming announcement of the new Pentium 4
3.2GHz in June could turn the scale in Intel's favor again, unless AMD
introduces faster CPUs."
The Pentium 4 3.2 ghz is priced much higher than the XP3200+.
The XP3200+ is priced close to the P4 3.0 ghz 800 fsb.

BTW this benchmark was done before Asus enabled PAT (+5-8%) on that board
with a bios upgrade. Guess you wouldn't want to read/post reviews where
they actually had an optimised Intel setup?

So it appears while in some benchamrks runs like a 3.0 intel,
In other benchmarks it outperforms a Pentium 4 3ghz. In any case, for most
people either chip probably wouldn't be a great choice, and a model
or two lower at a much lower price would make much more sense.
they decided
to call it a 3200+ for marketing reasons... Like I said it doesn't deserve
it's 3200 rating.
It depends what is being run.
Interesting that in the apps it beat the P-4, the XP2400
beat the XP3200!
That is a 2.4 Ghz Athlon XP in the test, which is an overclocked
XP3200+.



But then you'll claim this isn't a fault with
their rating
system...
No, read the article.
And in this case higher than the better performing P4.
It depends on what is being run. For math, CAD, and business applications,
the XP3000+ 400 at around $260 seems to perform better than a 3.0 ghz
P4 at around $400.
 
S

Stacey

JK wrote:

It depends on what is being run. For math, CAD, and business applications,
the XP3000+ 400 at around $260 seems to perform better than a 3.0 ghz
P4 at around $400.
So what chip would be better for Apps besides those? Like the ones the P4
excells in? An AMD?
 
S

Stacey

JK wrote:

The Pentium 4 3.2 ghz is priced much higher than the XP3200+.
The XP3200+ is priced close to the P4 3.0 ghz 800 fsb.

But is rated at 3200. Like I said this rating in inflated compared to what
it can actually do. Even your links prove this point. Thanx!
 
J

JK

Stacey said:
So what chip would be better for Apps besides those?
For most non SSE2 software(a very small percentage of X86
software in existence even uses SSE2) an Athlon XP outperforms
an Intel processor at the same price.
 
A

Ancra

Have you considered the importance of the video card, in this scenario?
Well, I would say he has! Ti4600 is an overdose for a 1.6GHz P4. The
videocard certainly isn't the bottleneck in his system.
Fred stood up, at show-n-tell, and said:
I'd say you have a nice system. If you really aren't happy with it (?)
you actually do have to think of something brutish at the core. Like
dual channel DDR400 and a XP2500-XP3200 or 2.8GHz-3.2GHz. I can't
think of anything simple or cheap to upgrade your system
significantly.
- Other than remove Win2000 and replace it with XP or good ol' 98SE,
of course! ;-)


ancra
 
A

Ancra

Lets see something recent that claims a 3200 AMD chips outperforms a 3.0-800
P4 much less deserves it's inflated rating..
Some standard winmark benchmark will do that nicely, I think. 6%
faster, actually.
Unreal Tournament also runs faster, faster than the 3.2-800 as well,
FYI. But that is beside the point, as the 3.06 and 3.2 really does
have the edge on many modern apps and most modern benchmarks. Not much
of an edge, but the P4 _IS_ faster. ...on that.
Now for the $64000 question: How many P4-code-optimized apps do you
have, and rely on heavily? How many do you intend to buy before
replacing your current computer?
Because the P4 really sucks bigtime on oldfashioned 386/387 apps!
But Ok, games are the main performance concern, for most of us, and
the P4 does well on that.
http://www.anandtech.com/cpu/showdoc.html?i=1834

"The review community unanimously agreed that the processor was not
deserving of its 3200+ rating, but none were as infuriated by AMD's model
number than the folks at Intel.
That citation is part of an argumentative article that doesn't offer
any testresults that actually support the expressed opinions. Some
claims, in the article, are also quite off mark as well. Such as the
statement that the 'Northwood' core has meant that the P4 is more
competitive. That's largely nonsens. Northwood is only slightly more
efficient than the Willamette.

What has happened since the Northwood release, is that the benchmark
collections, used in comparisions, have changed. Changed to emphasize
streaming instructions, and have also been recompiled for P4 code
optimisation. Since the P4 is quite good at that, of course it shows
up better. Another thing that also has happend, is that Intel has got
into DDR RAM. With a vengeance, certainly. But that only has a real
impact on performance some of the time. Not always.

Religions have little to do with God and the real world. Benchmarks
are like that too. Have people all worked up and full of
righteousness. (Just lok at me now, for example. ;-))
- And have little to do with actual application performance or the
real world.

IMO. In the history of computing there has never been a computer/CPU
architecture that has been as consistently overrated by benchmarks, as
the P4. So I wouldn't have any respect at all for Intel's regards for
others benchmarks. That doesn't mean the P4 is always slow. But it's
performance on exclusively P4-code-optimized,
streaming-instructions-only type of app benchmarks, doesn't really
reflect on its relative performance in other circumstances.

I have been fooled twice. I have acquired two P4's. Both have been
dissapointments (I have Athlons to compare with). I got the second one
after reading benchmarks on extremetech and Toms hardwork. I swallowed
that Northwood number. Since then I've read benchmarks more carefully.
In particular I've noticed that extremetech and Toms hardwork have
gradually removed all benchmarks where the P4 made a poor showing.
Replacing them with others, recompiled by Intel for the P4. They have
made some argument why that is supposed to be 'fair'. I'll not get
into that. My point is that I and most others tend to gloss over such
details, and end up with a 'big picture' that is misleading in terms
of what kind of relative performance we can expect on our usual crop
of software.

Intels P4 seem always to "have the edge" with some testing crowds.
Problem is, about the same time the 3.06 "clearly had an edge" over
the 3000+ at extremetech. PCW threw a bunch of apps at a few systems.
The 3.06HT rated in behind the slowest participating Athlon, 2600+.
Higher end Athlons mostly being 20 -30% faster.

I don't have any experience with fast P4's, my fastest is a 2.4GHz.
But the above does match my experience of extremetechs 'benchmarks',
P4's and Athlons. I don't believe in HT, I don't believe in 800FSB, I
don't believe in extremetech, I don't believe in the P4 anymore. No
matter what some testers cook up. The P4 is lightningfast on some
things. The Athlon is more honest, it crunch code all the time.

I have a relative who works for Intel. He's biased of course - he
works with the Itanium - but he would vomit all over the P4- "folks at
Intel" and their benchmarks. and their claims of P4 performance.


ancra
 
D

DVR

Yeah, I agree I'll have to spend some cash. I'm already running XP. I did
upgrade the video drivers to the Nvidia Detonator FX latest build and that
bumped benchmarking scores up considerably, and made a current game I'm
playing run and look a lot better...pretty amazing how just a driver change
did that.

For now, I'm going to screw around with overclocking the CPU even though I
don't expect much speed gain from it. Maybe I'll deal with the whole
motherboard/cpu/ram upgrade thing in a few months when P4 2.4ghz+ get
cheaper.
 

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