slightly OT: UPS battery dead


J

Jo-Anne

I keep my desktop computer and peripherals, except for the laser printer,
plugged into a 600-watt universal power supply (an APC Back-UPS 600). The
UPS is 13 years old, and the battery has died. The computer plugged into it
has been an old Dell desktop that runs WinXP. I may replace it soon with a
more powerful, faster one, perhaps with Windows 7. I may also want to plug
my 2-year-old WinXP laptop into the UPS.

My questions:

* Would it be sufficient to replace the battery (if I can get one), or would
I be better off buying a new UPS?

* If the latter, what features should I look for? If there are some
particularly good websites with this kind of information in reasonably
nontechnical language, I'd be grateful for links. I Googled but didn't find
much help.

Thank you!

Jo-Anne
 
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V

VanguardLH

Jo-Anne said:
I keep my desktop computer and peripherals, except for the laser printer,
plugged into a 600-watt universal power supply (an APC Back-UPS 600). The
UPS is 13 years old, and the battery has died. The computer plugged into it
has been an old Dell desktop that runs WinXP. I may replace it soon with a
more powerful, faster one, perhaps with Windows 7. I may also want to plug
my 2-year-old WinXP laptop into the UPS.

My questions:

* Would it be sufficient to replace the battery (if I can get one), or would
I be better off buying a new UPS?

* If the latter, what features should I look for? If there are some
particularly good websites with this kind of information in reasonably
nontechnical language, I'd be grateful for links. I Googled but didn't find
much help.

Thank you!

Jo-Anne

You sure it didn't die somewhere around 7 years ago? UPS batteries have
a lifespan from 3 to 6 years (depending on the type of battery).

Remove the old battery. Replace it with a new one. Don't buy it from
APC or wherever you got the UPS as their prices are ridiculously high.
Go to batteriesplus.com to find a replacement battery.
 
J

Jo-Anne

VanguardLH said:
You sure it didn't die somewhere around 7 years ago? UPS batteries have
a lifespan from 3 to 6 years (depending on the type of battery).

Remove the old battery. Replace it with a new one. Don't buy it from
APC or wherever you got the UPS as their prices are ridiculously high.
Go to batteriesplus.com to find a replacement battery.


Thank you for the suggestion, Vanguard! We have a Batteries Plus in town,
but I hadn't even thought of trying there. (Truly, the original battery has
lasted all these years.)

Jo-Anne
 
V

VanguardLH

Jo-Anne said:
Thank you for the suggestion, Vanguard! We have a Batteries Plus in town,
but I hadn't even thought of trying there. (Truly, the original battery has
lasted all these years.)

Jo-Anne

Go to their web site. There are selection listboxes on the upper right.
This lets you pick UPS, brand, and model. They should then list the
battery for your UPS. For example, and using my UPS (which also needs a
new battery) for my router, cable model, and a table lamp with twisty
fluorescent:

- Go to www.batteriesplus.com.
- Under Battery Finder:
o Category = UPS
o Manufacturer = Cyber Power
o Model = CP685AVR
- Returns several choices. Werker is BatteriesPlus' brand.
- Make sure you get the correct terminal size. While you can put a .25"
(F2) connector on a .187" (F1) terminal, it's a sloppy connection (big
connector on smaller terminal). You obviously won't fit a .187"
connector on a .25" terminal unless you use an adapter or replace the
cable connectors.

However, I know they have a Werker 9AH battery that is almost the same
physical size as their 7.5Ah battery. I think it is just 2-4mm taller
which will still fit inside the UPS case (after removing the spacer foam
tape). I'll get the larger ampere-hour rated battery for longer running
time. Using their search, they come up with the following battery:

http://www.batteriesplus.com/produc...s/96061-Cyber-Power/BF-Series-CP685AVR/1.aspx

Instead I'll get this one:

http://www.batteriesplus.com/produc..._--dot250-Terminal-DASH--DASH-WKA12--9F2.aspx

If I find it won't fit, they say I can bring it back and get their
recommended battery.

The only way to tell if the original battery was any good is if you
yanked the power cord to see just how long it keeps the load on it
powered. A UPS that doesn't have to supply a load isn't straining the
battery. My battery was long dead before I knew it until there was a
power outage and the UPS instantly failed. Some UPS have circuitry to
test their battery to check if it is still usable but a sure test is to
drop power (leave the power cord plugged in the wall so the computer is
still grounded and instead flip the circuit breaker for that room).
Then see how long, if any, that the UPS keeps powering the connected
gear. A UPS that doesn't have to engage always looks good.

I really doubt that battery lasted 13 years. Think of it. Just how
long does the battery in your car last? And it's huge compared to the
little 'un that goes inside a UPS.
 
S

SC Tom

I really doubt that battery lasted 13 years. Think of it. Just how
long does the battery in your car last? And it's huge compared to the
little 'un that goes inside a UPS.

I have a ~9 year old TrippLite that still works fine, or at least it did
yesterday when the power went out (bad storms here in the southeast). We
have some APC's at work that have to be at least 7 years old and still work
(even though I'm retired, they still call me for support. Bigger bucks,
though <BG>). And when I traded in my 1989 Ford Probe in 2000, it still had
the original battery in it. So there are exceptions to the rule.
For the most part, though, you are right- batteries normally don't last as
long as the ones I have seen. Some of the workstation UPS's we had (some
off-the-wall brand) only lasted 1-3 years, and even some of the APC's I've
used in the past only got 2-3 years of use before the batteries were toast.
I used to get replacement batteries from Newark or McMaster-Carr on line-
they are top quality, and give the electrical ratings, connector type, and
physical sizes, so it's pretty easy to find the correct replacement.
Unfortunately, it's not always the battery that goes bad- sometimes the
charging circuit gets weak, and that's where the real problem lies. Quite
often, it's darn near as cheap to buy a new UPS as it is to buy a new
battery. At least with the new UPS, you're getting new everything, and a
warranty, too :)
 
J

James Silverton

Jo-Anne wrote on Tue, 28 Sep 2010 00:50:16 -0500:
My questions:
* Would it be sufficient to replace the battery (if I can get one), or
would I be better off buying a new UPS?
* If the latter, what features should I look for? If there are
some particularly good websites with this kind of information in
reasonably nontechnical language, I'd be grateful for
links. I Googled but didn't find much help.
Thank you!

There is a store (it's a small chain I think) called Batteries Unlimited
where I have bought replacement batteries for my APC Back-UPS. Their
prices are much less than those on the net. It's a good idea to take the
old battery along to make sure you get the correct new one.

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
 
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J

James Silverton

James wrote to Jo-Anne on Tue, 28 Sep 2010 08:33:46 -0400:
There is a store (it's a small chain I think) called Batteries
Unlimited where I have bought replacement batteries for my APC
Back-UPS. Their prices are much less than those on the net.
It's a good idea to take the old battery along to make sure
you get the correct new one.

I think I got the name of the store wrong. It is Batteries Plus as, I
guess, others have mentioned. Other comments still apply and I would
also mention that the personnel are very helpful in finding batteries
for other devices.

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
 
J

Jo-Anne

VanguardLH said:
Go to their web site. There are selection listboxes on the upper right.
This lets you pick UPS, brand, and model. They should then list the
battery for your UPS. For example, and using my UPS (which also needs a
new battery) for my router, cable model, and a table lamp with twisty
fluorescent:

- Go to www.batteriesplus.com.
- Under Battery Finder:
o Category = UPS
o Manufacturer = Cyber Power
o Model = CP685AVR
- Returns several choices. Werker is BatteriesPlus' brand.
- Make sure you get the correct terminal size. While you can put a .25"
(F2) connector on a .187" (F1) terminal, it's a sloppy connection (big
connector on smaller terminal). You obviously won't fit a .187"
connector on a .25" terminal unless you use an adapter or replace the
cable connectors.

However, I know they have a Werker 9AH battery that is almost the same
physical size as their 7.5Ah battery. I think it is just 2-4mm taller
which will still fit inside the UPS case (after removing the spacer foam
tape). I'll get the larger ampere-hour rated battery for longer running
time. Using their search, they come up with the following battery:

http://www.batteriesplus.com/produc...s/96061-Cyber-Power/BF-Series-CP685AVR/1.aspx

Instead I'll get this one:

http://www.batteriesplus.com/produc..._--dot250-Terminal-DASH--DASH-WKA12--9F2.aspx

If I find it won't fit, they say I can bring it back and get their
recommended battery.

The only way to tell if the original battery was any good is if you
yanked the power cord to see just how long it keeps the load on it
powered. A UPS that doesn't have to supply a load isn't straining the
battery. My battery was long dead before I knew it until there was a
power outage and the UPS instantly failed. Some UPS have circuitry to
test their battery to check if it is still usable but a sure test is to
drop power (leave the power cord plugged in the wall so the computer is
still grounded and instead flip the circuit breaker for that room).
Then see how long, if any, that the UPS keeps powering the connected
gear. A UPS that doesn't have to engage always looks good.

I really doubt that battery lasted 13 years. Think of it. Just how
long does the battery in your car last? And it's huge compared to the
little 'un that goes inside a UPS.


Thank you, Vanguard! I called Batteries Plus, and they say they have a
battery that will work in my UPS. They said to bring in the UPS, which I'll
do this afternoon. I checked the website, and the models listed don't
exactly match mine, but I suspect the APC BackUPS BK600 probably is mine.
(The model number on the UPS is Back-UPS 600 (no BK before the 600).

I guess I have no real way of knowing when the battery died--but it appeared
to work as usual until we had a power surge (a nearby lightning strike that
took out our phone line, our electronic weather station, and a few other
things). At that point, it began acting strangely whenever my computer was
plugged into it. The computer would run for a while (random amounts of
time), then the UPS would scream, and the computer would turn off. When I
plugged the computer into a regular wall outlet, it seemed to run OK.

In any case, it's definitely time for at least a new battery (if not a new
UPS).

Thank you!

Jo-Anne
 
J

Jo-Anne

James Silverton said:
James wrote to Jo-Anne on Tue, 28 Sep 2010 08:33:46 -0400:



I think I got the name of the store wrong. It is Batteries Plus as, I
guess, others have mentioned. Other comments still apply and I would also
mention that the personnel are very helpful in finding batteries for other
devices.

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

Thank you, James! I too have always found the people at Batteries Plus to be
competent and helpful. I'll head over there today.

Jo-Anne
 
J

Jo-Anne

SC Tom said:
I have a ~9 year old TrippLite that still works fine, or at least it did
yesterday when the power went out (bad storms here in the southeast). We
have some APC's at work that have to be at least 7 years old and still
work (even though I'm retired, they still call me for support. Bigger
bucks, though <BG>). And when I traded in my 1989 Ford Probe in 2000, it
still had the original battery in it. So there are exceptions to the rule.
For the most part, though, you are right- batteries normally don't last as
long as the ones I have seen. Some of the workstation UPS's we had (some
off-the-wall brand) only lasted 1-3 years, and even some of the APC's I've
used in the past only got 2-3 years of use before the batteries were
toast.
I used to get replacement batteries from Newark or McMaster-Carr on line-
they are top quality, and give the electrical ratings, connector type, and
physical sizes, so it's pretty easy to find the correct replacement.
Unfortunately, it's not always the battery that goes bad- sometimes the
charging circuit gets weak, and that's where the real problem lies. Quite
often, it's darn near as cheap to buy a new UPS as it is to buy a new
battery. At least with the new UPS, you're getting new everything, and a
warranty, too :)

Hi, SC Tom,

Is there any way to check for a weak charging circuit?

It wouldn't be anywhere near as cheap to buy a new UPS as to get a new
battery. I gather that at Batteries Plus, I'd pay $20 to $30 for a new
battery ($80 from APC if I could get one). The APC UPS that seems comparable
to the one I have runs at least $250.

One other note (not sure if it means anything): There's an outlet that my
husband has long suspected wasn't wired properly. He plugged the UPS into it
today, and it detected the wrong wiring. So something is working.

Thank you!

Jo-Anne
 
S

SC Tom

Jo-Anne said:
Hi, SC Tom,

Is there any way to check for a weak charging circuit?

It wouldn't be anywhere near as cheap to buy a new UPS as to get a new
battery. I gather that at Batteries Plus, I'd pay $20 to $30 for a new
battery ($80 from APC if I could get one). The APC UPS that seems
comparable to the one I have runs at least $250.

One other note (not sure if it means anything): There's an outlet that my
husband has long suspected wasn't wired properly. He plugged the UPS into
it today, and it detected the wrong wiring. So something is working.

Thank you!

Jo-Anne

Without bench equipment, I don't know of any way to test it other than
checking the run time under load with a known good battery. I've only run
into the problem very seldom, but it does happen. The first one I found it
on was quite a while ago. I replaced the dead battery on the work UPS, let
it charge up over night with no load, then plugged in my stuff. Sometime
during the next night, the power went off, and the server only stayed on for
5 minutes before it shut itself down (at least it was gracefully, or nearly
so). After sending that battery back and getting a replacement for it, I
tested it myself before putting it in service, and had the same result.
After telling one of my cohorts in Ohio about it, she told me of the UPS's
they had that ended up with a weak charging system, and that was probably
what this one was experiencing. I tried another UPS of the same make with
the same rating and it work as advertised, and like I was used to. It would
stay up for at least 20 minutes before it shut itself down. That was the
first time I had seen that happen, but has happened on three or four since
that time.
The CyberPower UPS I have is very similar to this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Cyberpower-CP...1_11?s=gateway&ie=UTF8&qid=1285704256&sr=8-11

With the results I've had with it, I would not hesitate buying another.
 
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J

Jo-Anne

SC Tom said:
Without bench equipment, I don't know of any way to test it other than
checking the run time under load with a known good battery. I've only run
into the problem very seldom, but it does happen. The first one I found it
on was quite a while ago. I replaced the dead battery on the work UPS, let
it charge up over night with no load, then plugged in my stuff. Sometime
during the next night, the power went off, and the server only stayed on
for 5 minutes before it shut itself down (at least it was gracefully, or
nearly so). After sending that battery back and getting a replacement for
it, I tested it myself before putting it in service, and had the same
result. After telling one of my cohorts in Ohio about it, she told me of
the UPS's they had that ended up with a weak charging system, and that was
probably what this one was experiencing. I tried another UPS of the same
make with the same rating and it work as advertised, and like I was used
to. It would stay up for at least 20 minutes before it shut itself down.
That was the first time I had seen that happen, but has happened on three
or four since that time.
The CyberPower UPS I have is very similar to this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Cyberpower-CP...1_11?s=gateway&ie=UTF8&qid=1285704256&sr=8-11

With the results I've had with it, I would not hesitate buying another.

Thank you, SC Tom. A friend told me a similar story. Here's hoping my UPS
doesn't have a weak charging system, 'cause I just bought a new battery.
Didn't realize it would be as costly as it was--$50 since it's actually two
batteries. If I had seen your link first, I would have simply gone ahead and
bought the UPS you recommend! I've bookmarked it, though, just in case
(although I gather that shortly it'll acquire a shipping charge, which will
make it more expensive).

By the way, I assume there should be no problem plugging my laptop into the
UPS--right? At the moment, I'm using it as my main computer, since my old
desktop computer was acting flaky.

Thank you again!

Jo-Anne
 
S

SC Tom

Jo-Anne said:
Thank you, SC Tom. A friend told me a similar story. Here's hoping my UPS
doesn't have a weak charging system, 'cause I just bought a new battery.
Didn't realize it would be as costly as it was--$50 since it's actually
two batteries. If I had seen your link first, I would have simply gone
ahead and bought the UPS you recommend! I've bookmarked it, though, just
in case (although I gather that shortly it'll acquire a shipping charge,
which will make it more expensive).

By the way, I assume there should be no problem plugging my laptop into
the UPS--right? At the moment, I'm using it as my main computer, since my
old desktop computer was acting flaky.

Thank you again!

Jo-Anne

If the laptop battery is good, there's not much need to plug it into one of
the battery backup sockets, but if your UPS has a 'surge only' socket, that
would give protection against power spikes and surges. Although I guess that
if it's plugged into a battery backup socket, you could almost double your
up time, if everything else is still running :)

The shipping is free if you have a U.S. address; it just takes a while
longer to get there. I subscribe to Amazon Prime, which is ~$75/year and
provides 2-day shipping on anything sold by Amazon directly. 4 or 5 orders a
year and that charge is covered easily. Plus you can add family members onto
the list of users. I have my S.O. and her daughter on the list, so I get my
$75 worth usually by February :)
 
V

VanguardLH

Jo-Anne said:
Didn't realize it would be as costly as it was--$50 since it's actually two
batteries. If I had seen your link first, I would have simply gone ahead and
bought the UPS you recommend!

Having 2 batteries means the UPS has a longer run time (i.e., it stays
up longer). If you go to a UPS with only 1 battery then the UPS won't
run as long. The more ampere-hours you can shove inside the UPS for a
battery or with multiple batteries the longer it stays up during a power
outage.

As I recall, you said your old UPS cost you $250. Well, you just spend
one-fifth of that to get the batteries to get a new working UPS. Seems
like a pretty good deal to me.

So what type of batteries did you get? The CyberPower mentioned by Tom
has only 1 battery and of the BP-7 type. That is a 7AH battery and
there is only one of them. I have the CyberPower 600AVR UPS and it also
uses the BP-7 battery but I'm going to try to squeeze in a 9AH battery
that is just slightly taller but should fit inside the UPS. Perhaps
what you got were two 12AH batteries (24AH total) that would stay up a
hell of lot longer then the brick UPS'es with just one mid-range ampere-
hour battery.

If you have 2 batteries now, you would disappointed in the run-time if
you went to a UPS with only 1 battery - unless it was a much larger
battery. I had a 2kVA UPS where the 2 batteries were large and together
weighed 60 pounds. Had a fantastic run-time because the the huge
capacity of the batteries. The little 1-battery brick UPS from
CyberPower is not used to keep the computer running but to ensure there
is sufficient time for its software to do a controlled shutdown of the
OS and computer.
 
J

Jo-Anne

VanguardLH said:
Having 2 batteries means the UPS has a longer run time (i.e., it stays
up longer). If you go to a UPS with only 1 battery then the UPS won't
run as long. The more ampere-hours you can shove inside the UPS for a
battery or with multiple batteries the longer it stays up during a power
outage.

As I recall, you said your old UPS cost you $250. Well, you just spend
one-fifth of that to get the batteries to get a new working UPS. Seems
like a pretty good deal to me.

So what type of batteries did you get? The CyberPower mentioned by Tom
has only 1 battery and of the BP-7 type. That is a 7AH battery and
there is only one of them. I have the CyberPower 600AVR UPS and it also
uses the BP-7 battery but I'm going to try to squeeze in a 9AH battery
that is just slightly taller but should fit inside the UPS. Perhaps
what you got were two 12AH batteries (24AH total) that would stay up a
hell of lot longer then the brick UPS'es with just one mid-range ampere-
hour battery.

If you have 2 batteries now, you would disappointed in the run-time if
you went to a UPS with only 1 battery - unless it was a much larger
battery. I had a 2kVA UPS where the 2 batteries were large and together
weighed 60 pounds. Had a fantastic run-time because the the huge
capacity of the batteries. The little 1-battery brick UPS from
CyberPower is not used to keep the computer running but to ensure there
is sufficient time for its software to do a controlled shutdown of the
OS and computer.


Thank you, Vanguard! What I bought are two Werker SLAA6-12F batteries, each
of which is 6V 12AH AGM. According to the Batteries Plus website: "Werker
AGM batteries utilize hybrid technology to provide high rate discharge
capability and deep cycle power. Werker batteries are quality tested to
provide peak performance in UPS, mobility and security applications. 6 volt
12Ah capacity at a 20hr rate with quick disconnect .187 faston terminals."

These batteries are supposed to be basically what my UPS had been using, so
I'm hoping they'll keep everything going well for a fairly long time.

Jo-Anne
 
J

Jo-Anne

SC Tom said:
If the laptop battery is good, there's not much need to plug it into one
of the battery backup sockets, but if your UPS has a 'surge only' socket,
that would give protection against power spikes and surges. Although I
guess that if it's plugged into a battery backup socket, you could almost
double your up time, if everything else is still running :)

The shipping is free if you have a U.S. address; it just takes a while
longer to get there. I subscribe to Amazon Prime, which is ~$75/year and
provides 2-day shipping on anything sold by Amazon directly. 4 or 5 orders
a year and that charge is covered easily. Plus you can add family members
onto the list of users. I have my S.O. and her daughter on the list, so I
get my $75 worth usually by February :)

Thank you again, SC Tom! The idea of plugging the laptop into the UPS is
indeed for protection against spikes and surges. I've been leaving the
laptop on all the time, much as I did with my desktop computer, so that
protection would be valuable. I lost some of my desktop computer's function
(e.g., the parallel port) in the power surge a couple weeks ago and am
hoping to keep that from happening again.

Amazon said that the power supply you mentioned usually had a shipping fee
but it was free shipping today.

Jo-Anne
 
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S

SC Tom

***Replies in line***

VanguardLH said:
Having 2 batteries means the UPS has a longer run time (i.e., it stays
up longer). If you go to a UPS with only 1 battery then the UPS won't
run as long. The more ampere-hours you can shove inside the UPS for a
battery or with multiple batteries the longer it stays up during a power
outage.

*** That depends on the set up. In my experience, most of the APC's that use
2 batteries have them in series, which is not going to increase the
amperage, but is going to make it like a single 12v battery of the same
amperage as the 2 6v batteries. If the batteries are in parallel, then the
amperage would be increased and the charging voltage would still be 6v.
As I recall, you said your old UPS cost you $250. Well, you just spend
one-fifth of that to get the batteries to get a new working UPS. Seems
like a pretty good deal to me.

*** $250 seems awfully steep to me for a 600VA UPS. Even Staple's (as high
priced as they usually are) has a 1kVA APC for about half that:

http://www.staples.com/APC-Back-UPS...g-UPS/product_803761?cmArea=FEATURED:SC3:CG75

Granted, it's probably a single battery design, but then, UPS's aren't
designed to keep you running all night, just to keep your system up long
enough for you to do a graceful shut down if it looks like the power is
going to be out for an extended period of time.
So what type of batteries did you get? The CyberPower mentioned by Tom
has only 1 battery and of the BP-7 type. That is a 7AH battery and
there is only one of them. I have the CyberPower 600AVR UPS and it also
uses the BP-7 battery but I'm going to try to squeeze in a 9AH battery
that is just slightly taller but should fit inside the UPS. Perhaps
what you got were two 12AH batteries (24AH total) that would stay up a
hell of lot longer then the brick UPS'es with just one mid-range ampere-
hour battery.

*** You may or may not get more run time out of the 9Ah than the 7Ah. It
depends on the charging circuit in the UPS. If it's output is only rated for
7Ah batteries (or maybe 7.5Ah for design and wear purposes), then that's all
the 9Ah battery is going to be charged to. Odds are, like in my previous
statement, those two batteries together are still 12Ah since they are in
series. If the charger isn't designed for a larger battery, it can't charge
it to its full potential.
If you have 2 batteries now, you would disappointed in the run-time if
you went to a UPS with only 1 battery - unless it was a much larger
battery. I had a 2kVA UPS where the 2 batteries were large and together
weighed 60 pounds. Had a fantastic run-time because the the huge
capacity of the batteries. The little 1-battery brick UPS from
CyberPower is not used to keep the computer running but to ensure there
is sufficient time for its software to do a controlled shutdown of the
OS and computer.

*** If I had one of the 2kVA ones like that, I could probably enjoy a good
long run time, too :) We had servers plugged into ones rated that high (and
higher), and they had about 20-30 minutes before they shut down. Of course,
a server draws a lot more than a simple desktop PC. Even with my PC, LCD
monitor, USB powered hub for mouse and keyboard, cable modem, and router
plugged into mine, I still get about 15 minutes of run time before my UPS
starts the shut down cycle. Usually the power here doesn't stay out that
long unless there's a hurricane in the area, and we haven't had any of them
in a while, knock on wood :)
 
V

VanguardLH

SC said:
VanguardLH wrote ...


*** That depends on the set up. In my experience, most of the APC's
that use 2 batteries have them in series, which is not going to
increase the amperage, but is going to make it like a single 12v
battery of the same amperage as the 2 6v batteries. If the batteries
are in parallel, then the amperage would be increased and the
charging voltage would still be 6v.

I saw in Jo-Anne's reply that she said they were 6V batteries (instead
of 12V batteries). So, yes, they are probably in serial to get 12V
which then gets stepped up.

Tis too bad they went with two 6V batteries. The packaging results in a
fixed minimal cost for each battery and why Jo-Anne had to spend $50 on
2 batteries (to get 12V) rather than $32 for 1 battery (at 12V already).
I'm not sure which UPS she got. From the image and dimensions listed at
http://www.pricedbelowmarket.com/assets/img/253912_4_600w.jpg, it seems
they had room to put in taller 12V batteries. One place listed the
battery pair (http://excessups.com/backups-bk600-p-17.html) for $35 but
then add in their $9 shipping cost for a total of $44. BatteriesPlus
isn't the cheapest place to get batteries but they have most any that
you need, they're convenient, if there's a problem then there's a store
to take them back, you're paying for their expertise, and you get a
guarantee (might only be a year), plus you're not paying extra for the
shipping of the batteries (well, that cost is probably already rolled in
to the retail price), and you get the battery now instead of maybe 10
days later and without worrying about damage during shipping.
*** $250 seems awfully steep to me for a 600VA UPS. Even Staple's (as high
priced as they usually are) has a 1kVA APC for about half that:

http://www.staples.com/APC-Back-UPS...g-UPS/product_803761?cmArea=FEATURED:SC3:CG75

I didn't check and thought that is what she said she paid. I looked
this time and don't see her say that. Yes, that would be a steep price
NOW but I don't have an ancient retail price list to see what she
would've paid 13 years ago. Remember that UPS'es have dropped in price
just as has memory, drives, and other computer components. When my
father bought the 2kVA UPS (with a huge 50-lb isolation transformer for
true sinusoidal output) UPS back way over a decade ago, it's cost was
close to the same as its VA rating. That's not true today; however, the
VA rating is only one measure of a UPS and other features can quickly
add cost to a UPS. In fact, I've read where the "active" power supplies
might not work with the typical UPS (that has stepped sinusoidal output)
so you have to not get one of those active PSUs if you get a cheap UPS.

I didn't bother to lookup what her UPS would cost (now). Cost analysis
is always a requirement to figure out if you repair a device or replace
it. $50 is still cheaper than $80. I don't think her old APC
Backup-UPS 600 gave her any more features or protection than would one
of the Cyber Power brick UPS'es of today at $74 (Newegg's price). If it
had been one battery at $32 then it was a good deal to replace the
battery since that would be 43% the cost of getting a new UPS. At $50,
the new batteries are 68% the price of a replacement UPS. I usually
consider not repairing a device when its repair cost exceeds two-thirds
the cost of a replacement (and often start pondering a replacement
versus repair at just 50% repair cost).

For some folks, saving $24 is still something they want to do. After
all, coupons would be worthless product lures if consumers didn't want
and use them.
*** You may or may not get more run time out of the 9Ah than the 7Ah.
It depends on the charging circuit in the UPS. If it's output is only
rated for 7Ah batteries (or maybe 7.5Ah for design and wear
purposes), then that's all the 9Ah battery is going to be charged to.
Odds are, like in my previous statement, those two batteries together
are still 12Ah since they are in series. If the charger isn't
designed for a larger battery, it can't charge it to its full
potential.

Huh? Since when would a charger circuit know or care about the
*capacity* of a battery? It's concerned with voltage and its charge
rate. It's not like the charger would only charge for a specified
period of time based on the charging rate for some unknown but limited
capacity. An older battery will take longer to charge. In fact, one of
the measures by which you can determine if your battery is becoming
weak[er] is how long it takes to charge. An older or weak battery would
take longer to charge. If the charger shutoff after some fixed time
interval then the battery may never get fully charged and eventually
never will get fully charged. A 9AH battery would simply look like the
7AH battery that isn't yet fully charged and still need more charge.
So, yeah, it will take longer to charge just like it will take longer to
discharge.
 
J

Jo-Anne

SC Tom said:
***Replies in line***



*** That depends on the set up. In my experience, most of the APC's that
use 2 batteries have them in series, which is not going to increase the
amperage, but is going to make it like a single 12v battery of the same
amperage as the 2 6v batteries. If the batteries are in parallel, then the
amperage would be increased and the charging voltage would still be 6v.


*** $250 seems awfully steep to me for a 600VA UPS. Even Staple's (as high
priced as they usually are) has a 1kVA APC for about half that:

http://www.staples.com/APC-Back-UPS...g-UPS/product_803761?cmArea=FEATURED:SC3:CG75

Granted, it's probably a single battery design, but then, UPS's aren't
designed to keep you running all night, just to keep your system up long
enough for you to do a graceful shut down if it looks like the power is
going to be out for an extended period of time.


*** You may or may not get more run time out of the 9Ah than the 7Ah. It
depends on the charging circuit in the UPS. If it's output is only rated
for 7Ah batteries (or maybe 7.5Ah for design and wear purposes), then
that's all the 9Ah battery is going to be charged to. Odds are, like in my
previous statement, those two batteries together are still 12Ah since they
are in series. If the charger isn't designed for a larger battery, it
can't charge it to its full potential.


*** If I had one of the 2kVA ones like that, I could probably enjoy a good
long run time, too :) We had servers plugged into ones rated that high
(and higher), and they had about 20-30 minutes before they shut down. Of
course, a server draws a lot more than a simple desktop PC. Even with my
PC, LCD monitor, USB powered hub for mouse and keyboard, cable modem, and
router plugged into mine, I still get about 15 minutes of run time before
my UPS starts the shut down cycle. Usually the power here doesn't stay out
that long unless there's a hurricane in the area, and we haven't had any
of them in a while, knock on wood :)

Hi, SC Tom and Vanguard,

Just to confirm a couple things: I bought the UPS in 1997 and paid $252.76
with tax. It was not an outrageous price at that time (I checked several
sources before buying it). The two 6-volt batteries are indeed set up in
series to act as a single 12-volt battery.

As I was looking up my files to get the amount I paid, I noticed that I
still have the receipt for my first computer, a Kaypro 286i. The bare-bones
computer, without the floppy drive and other important parts, was $2,245
before tax. With everything added together, including a dot-matrix printer,
a tiny Princeton Max 12 monitor, and sales tax, the total was $4,944.55.

Jo-Anne
 
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S

SC Tom

VanguardLH said:
SC said:
VanguardLH wrote ...


*** That depends on the set up. In my experience, most of the APC's
that use 2 batteries have them in series, which is not going to
increase the amperage, but is going to make it like a single 12v
battery of the same amperage as the 2 6v batteries. If the batteries
are in parallel, then the amperage would be increased and the
charging voltage would still be 6v.

I saw in Jo-Anne's reply that she said they were 6V batteries (instead
of 12V batteries). So, yes, they are probably in serial to get 12V
which then gets stepped up.

Tis too bad they went with two 6V batteries. The packaging results in a
fixed minimal cost for each battery and why Jo-Anne had to spend $50 on
2 batteries (to get 12V) rather than $32 for 1 battery (at 12V already).
I'm not sure which UPS she got. From the image and dimensions listed at
http://www.pricedbelowmarket.com/assets/img/253912_4_600w.jpg, it seems
they had room to put in taller 12V batteries. One place listed the
battery pair (http://excessups.com/backups-bk600-p-17.html) for $35 but
then add in their $9 shipping cost for a total of $44. BatteriesPlus
isn't the cheapest place to get batteries but they have most any that
you need, they're convenient, if there's a problem then there's a store
to take them back, you're paying for their expertise, and you get a
guarantee (might only be a year), plus you're not paying extra for the
shipping of the batteries (well, that cost is probably already rolled in
to the retail price), and you get the battery now instead of maybe 10
days later and without worrying about damage during shipping.
*** $250 seems awfully steep to me for a 600VA UPS. Even Staple's (as
high
priced as they usually are) has a 1kVA APC for about half that:

http://www.staples.com/APC-Back-UPS...g-UPS/product_803761?cmArea=FEATURED:SC3:CG75

I didn't check and thought that is what she said she paid. I looked
this time and don't see her say that. Yes, that would be a steep price
NOW but I don't have an ancient retail price list to see what she
would've paid 13 years ago. Remember that UPS'es have dropped in price
just as has memory, drives, and other computer components. When my
father bought the 2kVA UPS (with a huge 50-lb isolation transformer for
true sinusoidal output) UPS back way over a decade ago, it's cost was
close to the same as its VA rating. That's not true today; however, the
VA rating is only one measure of a UPS and other features can quickly
add cost to a UPS. In fact, I've read where the "active" power supplies
might not work with the typical UPS (that has stepped sinusoidal output)
so you have to not get one of those active PSUs if you get a cheap UPS.

I didn't bother to lookup what her UPS would cost (now). Cost analysis
is always a requirement to figure out if you repair a device or replace
it. $50 is still cheaper than $80. I don't think her old APC
Backup-UPS 600 gave her any more features or protection than would one
of the Cyber Power brick UPS'es of today at $74 (Newegg's price). If it
had been one battery at $32 then it was a good deal to replace the
battery since that would be 43% the cost of getting a new UPS. At $50,
the new batteries are 68% the price of a replacement UPS. I usually
consider not repairing a device when its repair cost exceeds two-thirds
the cost of a replacement (and often start pondering a replacement
versus repair at just 50% repair cost).

For some folks, saving $24 is still something they want to do. After
all, coupons would be worthless product lures if consumers didn't want
and use them.
*** You may or may not get more run time out of the 9Ah than the 7Ah.
It depends on the charging circuit in the UPS. If it's output is only
rated for 7Ah batteries (or maybe 7.5Ah for design and wear
purposes), then that's all the 9Ah battery is going to be charged to.
Odds are, like in my previous statement, those two batteries together
are still 12Ah since they are in series. If the charger isn't
designed for a larger battery, it can't charge it to its full
potential.

Huh? Since when would a charger circuit know or care about the
*capacity* of a battery? It's concerned with voltage and its charge
rate. It's not like the charger would only charge for a specified
period of time based on the charging rate for some unknown but limited
capacity. An older battery will take longer to charge. In fact, one of
the measures by which you can determine if your battery is becoming
weak[er] is how long it takes to charge. An older or weak battery would
take longer to charge. If the charger shutoff after some fixed time
interval then the battery may never get fully charged and eventually
never will get fully charged. A 9AH battery would simply look like the
7AH battery that isn't yet fully charged and still need more charge.
So, yeah, it will take longer to charge just like it will take longer to
discharge.

In order for a battery to produce 9 amps per hour, it has to be charged
sufficiently to do so. If the charging circuit is not rated to at least 9
amps, the battery is not going to get a full charge. The voltage will be
there, but not the capacity. Try charging a marine battery with an
under-rated cheapo auto charger and you're liable to end up paddling to
shore unless your engine is tuned well :-(
 

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