Seriously, has anybody ever seen a serious virus problem in Windowswhen using AV protection?

D

Dustin Cook

Greater than less ( more > less ). With a motor, it takes more ( >
less) power until the motor spins up to generate the opposing "back
voltage" that a spinning motor generates. Running for some period of
time is equal to this power consumption. De-energizing for less than
that period of time will not save you any power. As for the bulbs, there
is that factor plus the efficiency and the life expectancy of the bulb
is reduced with multiple starts (though I don't know exactly why).

If it's a filament based bulb, it's due to the thermals of the wire
heating and rapidly cooling. It's why on the incandescent house lights in
the states, if you hit the light switch rapidly for a little while you
might burn a bulb out. hehehe.. Filament will only take so much.
 
F

FromTheRafters

Char Jackson said:
If you assume a power savings of 50 watts (low power state versus off
state) and a KWh cost of $.10, my back of the napkin calculation is
just under $15 a year in savings. Obviously, the actual numbers will
vary depending on the specific system and the local cost of power,
causing the result to vary.

I was thinking about this while watching my mother (83) walking around
unplugging the vampires. The phone, the intercom, the radio - then over
to the TV and the cable box... I was trying to calculate the yearly
energy expenditure versus the savings but couldn't find the conversion
table for kilowatt hours to oatmeal bowls.

....and I thought this scientific calculator had everything...
 
R

Rex Ballard

For your machine?  I doubt it.

I should point out that was for my Windows Machine. The other
machines had Linux and had no problem.
 Probably for others.  And who knows
what stupid thing they did to install those viruses.

Sometimes all you have to do is preview an e-mail in Outlook, or visit
a site in IE. Each time I got one of those viruses, it was usually
after switching to IE because some site needed IE with ActiveX
controls. Even though the ActiveX controls were legit, I made the
fatal mistake of using the browser for other sites.
Yeah, nice links, thanks, but they prove my point: the #1 on the list
Net-Worm.Win32.Kido.ih has infected 58200 machines, which sounds like
a lot,

Actually, I think that was 58200 variants on 1 machine.
Until you realize there are nearly 1 billion Windows machines
out there.

I didn't see anything that said they monitored 1 billion machines.
If you don't know what is being measured, or how it was measured.

Worse, I had a hard time seeing what was measured.
 Let's make it easy and say there are 582000000 Windows
machines (a low number). So one out of 10000 Windows machines are
infected by this #1 virus.

On the other hand, that might have been the number of viruses
unleashed on 1 machine that didn't get caught. Which means that if
you have 1 billion machines there are 58 trillion crashes or
infections possible.

See if you can see what was measured.
How many machines?
How many virus variants?
 Second place was half this number, so one
out of 20000 Windows machines.

Or 20 trillion possible infections.

Let's see if we can find out how many machines were in the sample.
Let's see if these were the various variants (nearly 250,000 variants
out there).
 
F

FromTheRafters

If it's a filament based bulb, it's due to the thermals of the wire
heating and rapidly cooling. It's why on the incandescent house lights
in
the states, if you hit the light switch rapidly for a little while you
might burn a bulb out. hehehe.. Filament will only take so much.

No, it's the compact florescent bulb. It has some sort of a ballast
circuit and mercury vapor I think.
 
R

Rex Ballard

(e-mail address removed)>, (e-mail address removed)
says...
Virii have a source. A point of origin when the computer starts.  
Eliminate the start point or points from running and the virus becomes
dormant and you can then remove it without it putting itself back on
your system.

That isn't always the case. Sky, Bagel, and BugBear not only keep
reinstalling theselves, they also disable the antivirus AND keep it
from letting you know that it's not working.
 
F

FromTheRafters

Actually, I think that was 58200 variants on 1 machine.

***
Not likely, worms (it did say worm) often use signals (a mutex) to
ensure only one copy is running on the machine. The count is likely the
number of computers thought to be hosting (or having hosted) the worm (I
didn't look).
***
 
C

Char Jackson

So.. thats a no then? Not very difficult to see how much wattage your
system is actually using in a low power state... Bad to just take a guess
and try to pass that off as knowing... ?

Nobody asked me about *my* PC. I was providing a generic example. Plug
in your own numbers to get a result that's meaningful to you. I can't
do it from here.
 
C

Char Jackson

Sigh, sorry jack.. No cigar for you. It's a known fact (look it up!) that
certain VLK keys (which is what it actually is) are infact, blacklisted
and you cannot apply a later service pack which is aware of the key if
your using one. Any, servicepacks that is which are aware of the
blacklisted key. As the original SP1 is no longer available (it's 1a now)
that includes.. well, all of them.

I'll take your word for it since I don't know where you'd like me to
"look it up!". All I can say is that I have *never* seen an XP system
that couldn't be updated with Service Packs and/or security patches.
That includes more than a few VLK-licensed systems and systems that
were licensed with a keygen. I don't know what you're doing wrong or
what I'm doing right, but I'll dig into it if it ever comes up. So far
it hasn't.

Are you sure you aren't confusing Service Packs and security updates
with being able to visit Windows Update and browsing through the
available updates that way?
 
T

ToolPackinMama

Do you actually know the power level difference when all of the power
saving features, except suspend/hibernation, are used vs. turning the
computer completely off?

No, do you?
 
T

ToolPackinMama

Same with computer viruses. In our modern era John, who is getting
infected? Nobody SAVE zero-day attack victims.

Well, huge numbers of PCs are infected. In my experience it's more
common for a PC to be infected than not. Most of them have anti-virus
installed and supposedly working at the time they become infected. Does
anybody here believe that what I have just said isn't true?

Blah blah blah in an ideal world all PCs are properly protected and
updated and used responsibly blah blah blah. But that is not the world
I live in.
 
D

Dustin Cook

I'll take your word for it since I don't know where you'd like me to
"look it up!". All I can say is that I have *never* seen an XP system
that couldn't be updated with Service Packs and/or security patches.
That includes more than a few VLK-licensed systems and systems that
were licensed with a keygen. I don't know what you're doing wrong or
what I'm doing right, but I'll dig into it if it ever comes up. So far
it hasn't.

When your installing a service pack, haven't you noticed prior to
actually installing it checks the product key? What do you suppose it
does if that key doesn't checkout well? Would you like to take a guess?

It's not a matter of doing anything right, or wrong, smartass; it's a
matter of a bad key which is blacklisted. FYI, google is a fine search
engine and I had no difficulty bringing up articles discussing the
blacklisting. .. VLK edition blacklisting.
Are you sure you aren't confusing Service Packs and security updates
with being able to visit Windows Update and browsing through the
available updates that way?

Hmm, I realize your some sort of pc repair person or something, but I'm
not some wannabe your chatting with. I've probably built and/or serviced
more PC's in my life than you have seen yet... :)

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=windows+vlk+blacklisted+keys&aq=
f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=33d671b04d717e6a

Here, I saved you the hassle of looking all this up for yourself. I'm
sure you have some more clients to go take care of. You can thank me
later for the education... Wiseass.
 
D

Dustin Cook

I'll take your word for it since I don't know where you'd like me to
"look it up!". All I can say is that I have *never* seen an XP system

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_XP

And I quote: "
Product key testing

In addition to activation, Windows XP service packs will refuse to
install on Windows XP systems with product keys known to be widely used
in unauthorized installations.

Like I said in my previous response to you, I've been in the PC field for
a very long time. I was A+ certified when it was still a "cool" thing to
waste money on.

I used wikipedia for the first link convenience only. You can find the
same information on the laborinth of MS website. They're proud of that ..
ehh, feature actually.
Are you sure you aren't confusing Service Packs and security updates
with being able to visit Windows Update and browsing through the
available updates that way?

Are you sure you should be repairing peoples PCs and charging them for
your clear lack of knowledge on the subject? Seriously, how long have you
been fixing computers professionally? I know halfwits who are aware of
the blacklisted key issue with VLK (sometimes wrongly referred to as
"corporate" copies of windows) and you don't?

You critize me claiming I must have done something incorrectly; yet...
the machine was using the original FCKGW key; short of changing that key
for the client (which I cannot do for ethical reasons) they are indeed,
****ed. No two ways about it. No service packs, nada.. Not going to
happen for them. Without atleast SP2 I think it is now, you can't even
get critical updates.
 
R

RayLopez99

A modern coder who doesn't know SQL injection exploits? That doesn't make
much sense, my friend. Are you seriously a programmer of any sort? It's
cool if your not man, I don't really care either way. I'm just interested
in why you think the way you do..

No, I'm just saying that using certain conventions found in .NET, such
as what they call Stored Procedures (from memory), you negate SQL
injection exploits. Also in ASP.NET you can set a switch in your XAML/
HTML file like "ValidateRequest="false" to allow (or deny) "<" ">"
characters.

C++ used to be my favorite language but nobody save scientists code in
that anymore...no eye candy. Switch to C# and join the fun!

Your just ****ing with us all right? :)


I'm not a fan of .net. I don't even have .net runtimes installed. C++,
assembler, even various versions of basic in some flavor or another.

I see. You probably are focusing on the engine or backend of a
program, which as you know doesn't require much more than Console for
IO, but mostly for consumers these days they focus solely on the eye
candy--witness the enormous popularity of iPhone type apps--or Windows
vs Dos/ Unix for that matter. Back end on these programs is 10% of
the work, and the graphics is 90%. XAML in .NET allows you to break
up (mostly) the art (front end GUI) from the science (back end
engine).

RL
 
R

RayLopez99

Same with computer viruses.  In our modern era John, who is getting
infected?  Nobody SAVE zero-day attack victims.

***
There you hit the nail on the head. Most of today's malware relies on
exploiting that zero-day window of opportunity. Many don't even try to
evade detection.
***

So let's ask this question: have you or anybody you know ever been a
zero-day attack victim?  Nope?  Didn't think so.

***
Antimalware and antivirus using signature based methods must have
signatures. They get signatures when they get samples of malware, from
victims and intended victims, that they can analyze. If there were no
victims, the signature would not have been derived from analysis and
distributed to the scanners to protect us from it. The fact that you
don't know anyone afflicted is more a testament to the success of the
system than evidence that it is not needed.
***

Very interesting reply, but as a philosopher and scientist that you
and I are, or could play one on the internet, you realize your
statements are unprovable? And if it's unprovable Sir Karl Popper
would argue it does not exist (scientific method).

RL
 
R

RayLopez99

Believe it. I did a service call this afternoon, modern cable modem
install. The customer declined (yep!) the free router included and opted
to plug directly into the cable modem via USB instead of the NIC card.
The customer contacted me due to a "virus" issue they sustained about 3
hours after going online.

It was a bootlegged windows XP pro system with no service pack; and this
is the funniest part, actually using the original blacklisted key; which
is why it had no service packs....Plugged directly into the cable modem,
bypassing any benefits the router would have offered them (they're
rebranded linksys routers), slower speed, and a nice antivirus2010XP
infection.

Slower speed when you don't use a NIC card but use a USB makes sense.
Router would I think have a hardware firewall, but in theory a
software firewall should also do the trick, though I have both running
on my machines.

Good war story, and it shows it's not Windows at fault, but the user.

And the user is pretty dumb, though people like him keep you employed.

RL
 
R

RayLopez99

If I have serious reason to believe a computer is using pirated software
I won't touch it - I provide a signed statement of the work we do,
including anything we suggest, it would leave us liable in the case of
an audit.

Well you're too cautious. My Vista machine is using what is probably
pirated software in the OS (Vista Ultimate), I would imagine, since it
cost $5 in Bangkok to buy. But it was shrinkwrapped and bought from
an indoor store, not from a vendor in the street (and that's my
defense). But insofar as I can tell, and I've had it several years,
no viruses were in it and nobody else has my personal information--if
they did they would have struck by now. Same goes for most of my
other software. Then these Linux advocates have the GALL to claim
that "Linux is cheaper". Balderdash!

RL
 
R

RayLopez99

In short, as I code, I know that computers are very predictable.  If
your AV program is configured to catch virus "X" then it will catch
it--and you will not be infected.

***
Not *always* the case. Sometimes the signature is in the virus body and
the self-decryptor has to run in emulation for a time before revealing
said virus body. If the self-dycryptor has emulation detection
capability it may fail to reveal the body when it detects that it is
being *watched*.
***

OK, I see.

But the bottom line is that AV vendors have an incentive to hype up
lack of security, and i've not seen it done, ergo,there's no problem
to hype.

Excerpt below verifies what I have said in this thread.

RL

http://threatpost.com/en_us/blogs/f...M+List&utm_campaign=Threatpost+Spotlight&CID=

Considering the stakes in today's security game, gleaning intelligence
from professional attackers is an invaluable experience for
researchers on the other side of the ball. Robert Hansen, a security
researcher and CEO of SecTheory, has been doing just that in recent
months, having a series of off-the-record conversations with spammers
and malicious hackers in an effort to gain insight into their tactics,
mindset and motivation.

In a blog post describing one such conversation, Hansen says that the
attacker was lamenting the difficulty of executing targeted attacks
against machines in high-value networks. Security systems are doing a
fairly good job of making life difficult for him.

He’s not the type to hack randomly, he’s only interested in targeted
attacks with big payouts. Sure, if you really work at it for days or
weeks you’ll get in, almost always, but it’s not like it used to be
where you’d just run a handful of basic tests and you were guaranteed
to break in. The risk is that now when he sends his mules to go cash
out, there’s a chance they’ll get nailed. Well, the more I thought
about it the more I thought that this is a very solvable problem for
bad guys. There are already other types of bad guys who do things like
spam, steal credentials and DDoS. For that to work they need a botnet
with thousands or millions of machines. The chances of a million
machine botnet having compromised at least one machine within a target
of interest is relatively high.

Hansen's solution to the hacker's problem provides a glimpse into a
busines model we might see in the not-too-distant future. It's an
evolutionary version of the botnet-for-hire or malware-as-a-service
model that's taken off in recent years. In Hansen's model, an attacker
looking to infiltrate a specific network would not spend weeks
throwing resources against machines in that network, looking for a
weak spot and potentially raising the suspicion of the company's
security team.

Instead, he would contact a botmaster and give him a laundry list of
the machines or IP addresses he's interested in compromising. If the
botmaster already has his hooks into the network, the customer could
then buy access directly into the network rather than spending his own
time and resources trying to get in.
 
R

RayLopez99

Like I said in my previous response to you, I've been in the PC field for
a very long time. I was A+ certified when it was still a "cool" thing to
waste money on.

Just curious, but what is your hourly rate or do you get paid by the
job?

And I'm sure you would be a perfect witness on the stand if I were
trying to prove that it's not Windows but the user who is at fault in
nearly any security breach. SAVE for Zero-Day attacks, which cannot
be prevented by definition (not even in Linux I would imagine), it
seems Windows machines get infected by users who don't have the proper
security on their machines, as documented by Belarc for example.

BTW, anybody follow all the Safe Hex recommendations of Belarc
Advisors? I think there are too many. I usually score 2 or 3 stars
out of five, but even so I've never had a virus problem.

RL
 
S

Sjouke Burry

RayLopez99 said:
Just curious, but what is your hourly rate or do you get paid by the
job?

And I'm sure you would be a perfect witness on the stand if I were
trying to prove that it's not Windows but the user who is at fault in
nearly any security breach. SAVE for Zero-Day attacks, which cannot
be prevented by definition (not even in Linux I would imagine), it
seems Windows machines get infected by users who don't have the proper
security on their machines, as documented by Belarc for example.

BTW, anybody follow all the Safe Hex recommendations of Belarc
Advisors? I think there are too many. I usually score 2 or 3 stars
out of five, but even so I've never had a virus problem.

RL
The same here, Belarc is trying to sell something, or they try to
tell you that you should be behind a corporate net, with all permissions
denied and blocked......
 
P

Peter

(e-mail address removed)>, (e-mail address removed)
says...
That isn't always the case. Sky, Bagel, and BugBear not only keep
reinstalling theselves, they also disable the antivirus AND keep it
from letting you know that it's not working.
Why would you resort to trusting your virus software when checking for
if the O/S is infected with a virus? That's only used to catch a virus
and prevent infection in the first place. Chances are, if your machine
is already infected your AV ain't going to put it right. You're going
to have to use other methods to get it removed and only get the AV
running once the machine is not running infected.

If I suspect a machine to be infected I'm not going to rely on my AV to
root it out. I'm going to check manually for it in the known startup
areas of windows. I'm going to look and see what's currently running to
determine if there's anything that shouldn't be there and stop it. Once
I've tracked down the suspected startup processes I'm going to stop them
from running when the computer starts. Ok, sometimes this can take
time, but eventually it CAN be done.

How can Sky, Bagle and Bugbear keep reinstalling themselves if they're
not running. Admittedly, I was a little quick with my previous post.
If windows system files have become infected you may have no other
course of action but to replace them with known good files. Dependent
on how many files this is, it may require the system files to be
overwritten by some kind of repair install.
 
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