Registry Cleaners.

J

John John (MVP)

Twayne said:
Ken Blake, MVP wrote:

Lots of pure BS. See inline reality:




No, unfortunately, XP/Vista don't natively have such a feature but MS
has recently re-released such a product under a new name, though I've
forgotten the new name for it. It used to be One Care.

As usual you invent facts to fit your opinions. Microsoft has not yet
released its replacement for One Care, be it in beta form or any other
Microsoft has not "recently re-released such a product under a new
name". The replacement Code-named Morro has not yet been seen by anyone
outside of Microsoft and no one, least of all you, knows what will or
will not be included in the new product.

http://www.microsoft.com/Presspass/press/2008/nov08/11-18NoCostSecurityPR.mspx

The reality about registry cleaners is something that you cannot give to
the readers here, all you can do is present your "opinions". Reasonable
people with well developed logical thinking skills study the situation
at hand and inform themselves and then base their opinions on facts.
People like you form their "opinions" before they study and inform
themselves or have any facts about anything. Such opinions arrived at
without any facts are usually set in concrete and as usual the only way
you have to defend them is to try to invent "facts" to fit your opinions.

John
 
N

Noel Paton

BobN said:
It's the "usual crowd" with the usual boilerplate. I have seen the
identical posts dozens of times word for word. In spite of the fact that
millions of people routinely use registry cleaners, these no-nothings
continue to try and terrify users.

No - it's known as 'injecting a serious amount of caution'!
using a Registry Cleaner is fine - if you know the effect that each edit
that you're doing is going to have. If you are the 'average, home' user,
then the chances are that you have no real idea what each edit is going to
do - or where the original entry came from.
The consequence is that the majority of users will click on the 'remove all'
option - and their system will proceed to have problems. I've seen this
symptom too many times to count!!
Registry Cleaners are very goo at what their writers designed them to do -
find minor inconsistencies in the registry.
They are VERY bad at informing the user of the effects of making any of the
changes that they recommend (and the risks thereof) - and even worse at
understand the 'contingency entries' that many programs put into the
registry (take for instance versions of Office, which insert entries which
may become active if the version of Office is upgraded, or if certain
add-ons are installed)

Overall, for the novice user - or anyone short of an expert - Registry
'cleaners' are best avoided.


--
Noel Paton (MVP 2002-2006)
(CrashFixPC)

Nil Carborundum Illegitemi
http://www.crashfixpc.co.uk
 
P

Peter Foldes

Hello BobN

A good friend of mine has a computer repair shop. In the month of Jan of this year
he had 36 systems to repair from registry errors brought about by these Reg
Cleaners. On 2 of them he had to rebuild the system from bottom up since the Reg
backups that were created were not accessible because the system was not booting.

And how many more of these shops are doing the same across the country. Very few of
these people that bring in their computers to different shops will post here since
they are not aware of newsgroups that can possibly help. These are Family oriented
computers that are off the grid from most people like you knowing the bad effect
that these reg cleaners can do.
How many in Europe. Gets close to the number that you are mentioning. Or
Asia,Australia

Registry Cleaners are snake oil remedies and to the contrary belief that you think
you posses it does not speed up your computer or give you a lot more space. Best be
left alone.Dead strings in the Registry does not do any harm

Last thing. I frequent 48 newsgroups which I participate in including foreign ones
and there is on an average usually 10-15 per week that have problems brought about
by the automatic Reg Cleaning Tools
 
J

John John (MVP)

BobN said:
Nonsense. All registry cleaners back up the registry first. How many of
the more than three million people who use CCleaner do you believe are
experts.? One of the registry cleaners that I use has been purchased by
two million users. Obviously somebody is wrong, and it is clearly not the
people who use registry cleaners.

PT Barnum was right. There's one born every second and your one of
them. Registry cleaners do absolutely nothing to improve computer
performance or to keep it in a good working order. At best they give
users a warm fuzzy feeling by making them think that removing a few
orphaned entries in the registry does something good and at worse they
bug up your computer. Your assertion that "All registry cleaners back
up the registry first" is admission enough by you that these cleaners do
at times cause problems, sometimes they cause problems that are serious
enough to prevent the computer from booting. Why on earth bother with
useless programs that can possibly damage your operating system while
giving zero benefits in return?

John
 
J

John John (MVP)

Peter said:
Last thing. I frequent 48 newsgroups which I participate in including
foreign ones and there is on an average usually 10-15 per week that have
problems brought about by the automatic Reg Cleaning Tools

And, not surprisingly, those who advocate the use of these useless
programs are nowhere to be seen when people post asking for help fixing
problems caused by these cleaners.

John
 
L

Leonard Grey

<see below>
---
Leonard Grey
Errare humanum est
PT Barnum was right. There's one born every second and your one of
them. Registry cleaners do absolutely nothing to improve computer
performance or to keep it in a good working order. At best they give
users a warm fuzzy feeling by making them think that removing a few
orphaned entries in the registry does something good and at worse they
bug up your computer. Your assertion that "All registry cleaners back
up the registry first" is admission enough by you that these cleaners do
at times cause problems, sometimes they cause problems that are serious
enough to prevent the computer from booting. Why on earth bother with
useless programs that can possibly damage your operating system while
giving zero benefits in return?

John
I was also thinking of a statement attributed to H.L. Mencken: "No one
ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people."

It's easy to blow holes in the advertising for registry cleaners. The
fact is, no one has published reliable before-and-after benchmarks
proving the claims attributed to registry cleaners. And no one will,
because it can't be done.

To put a finer point on the argument: Windows users sometimes /do/ need
to edit the Windows registry in order to solve a problem. Sometimes the
registry requires extensive editing to solve a problem. Much has been
written on the subject of whether the registry is the proper way to
store software configuration data in the first place.

The prerequisites to editing the registry in an intelligent manner are:
1- You have to know for a fact that registry keys or sub-keys are
causing a problem.
2- You have to know exactly which keys and sub-keys need editing and you
must know exactly what the correct data should be.
3- You have to know how to backup the registry, at least, although
knowing how to make an image of your system partition is better.

Registry cleaners can't do any of that although, to their credit, some
will perform at least a partial backup. A registry cleaner doesn't know
whether your computer has a problem to begin with, whether any problems
it does have are caused by incorrect information stored in the registry,
or which specific keys and sub-keys need to be edited and how. Only a
human being can make those decisions.

A registry cleaner simply goes through your registry, picking up
whatever it decides is 'wrong' by whatever criteria its programmers
chose, and then offer to 'fix' the mistakes.

Most of the time, the 'errors' a registry cleaner finds are not errors
in the first place and have zero impact on a computer's performance. So
it should come as no surprise when the actions taken by a registry don't
harm your computer. (Anyway, many of the keys they remove will just be
re-created the next time you restart your computer.)

Sometimes, the changes a registry cleaner makes are actually harmful to
your computer, because no registry cleaner can make the judgments that
an educated user can make about whether and how information stored in
the registry needs to be edited. When this happens, your computer can be
severely damaged, sometimes irreparably. We see examples of that all the
time in these newsgroups.

Furthermore, an improper change made to the registry may not impact your
computer until weeks or months later, when your computer finally tries
to access an erroneously changed or deleted registry key or sub-key. By
then, you've long forgotten which improper changes your registry cleaner
made that need to be 'undone' (if you even have that option.)

Is it any wonder, then, that registry cleaners are marketed to people
who don't have sufficient understanding of the registry, or of Windows
computing in general? This is evident from the unsubstantiated and often
humorous claims they make, which are akin to the advertising for diet
pills and the like that are hawked on late-night television and Sunday
radio.

Registry cleaners and similar 'fixit' programs are very popular because
computer users frequently, and often through no fault of their own, have
to deal with complex technology they do not understand. They don't
understand why their computers are not working properly, and they just
want an easy way to fix things. Nobody should blame them. Arrogant
software and hardware makers would rather point their figures at each
other than co-operate to give users the enjoyable experience they paid
for and deserve.
 
M

msnews.microsoft.com

John John (MVP) said:
And, not surprisingly, those who advocate the use of these useless
programs are nowhere to be seen when people post asking for help fixing
problems caused by these cleaners.

John

I'm a firm believer in keeping my registry as small as possible. There are a
number of steps I take so as not to destroy my machine and then have to
rebuild,ld it from scratch. I'm running XP prof with all updates in place.

Before I work on the registry I make a backup of the registry. Then I run a
complete update of the drive I use for programs and associated data using
Acronis. I've found over the years that this is the best backup tool and
with the cost of HDD's it is well worth having a large drive just for my
backups and since Acronis lets you run the recovery from a "dos" like disk I
can get back to my state before getting into trouble.

Only then will I run a registry cleaner. If there is damage and I can't
reboot I will run the recovery side of Acronis. Though this has not happened
yet.

Hope this gives you an idea that you have always to protect yourself when
changing anything of a large nature.

Good luck and regards,
 
L

Leonard Grey

On what do you base your belief that the registry should be "as small as
possible?" Do you have any data to support that belief?

For example: Have you timed how long is takes your computer to start
before and after you have made your registry as small as possible? Can
you demonstrate that your computer runs more quickly or smoothly because
you made your registry as small as possible?

The registry cleaner marketing machine tries to appeal to people's
common sense -- after all, a registry that is bloated by unnecessary
data can't possibly start Windows as quickly as one that is clean, can
it? It sounds so logical, and nobody likes software bloat, but the facts
do not support this assertion. There is time saved, to be sure, but not
nearly enough that you would notice it.

(You can try your hand at the math: What is the bottleneck on the way
from your boot drive to the CPU -- possibly the PCI bus -- and how long
would it take to load an extra thousand or so registry keys?)

BTW: The Acronis boot disk is Linux, not DOS. True Image is excellent
software, as long as you use it for manual, full images, and then only
if the boot disk has drivers for your hardware.
 
J

John John (MVP)

msnews.microsoft.com said:
I'm a firm believer in keeping my registry as small as possible.

Oh if Tolstoy would have only shortened War and Peace by one paragraph
it would have made it so much faster to read his novel! I'm sure
everyone would read it... twice!

John
 
N

Nate Grossman

Leonard Grey said:
BTW: The Acronis boot disk is Linux, not DOS. True Image is excellent
software, as long as you use it for manual, full images, and then only
if the boot disk has drivers for your hardware.

It works great for incremental/differential images, and for backing up
only data if that's all one needs to do.

The boot disk has what is needed for backing up to another
disk/partiition. What other drivers might one need?
 
M

Méndez

Would someone take a look at the image and explain to me what line would
cause registry damage and why or how the specific line could leave my
computer unbooteable. I've used CCleaner for the past six years and run it
several times a week including the registry cleaner and have never had any
problem with it, but judging from your comments, my good luck may be about
to run out anytime...

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/1089/ccleaneruo9.jpg
 
S

Shenan Stanley

Méndez said:
Would someone take a look at the image and explain to me what line
would cause registry damage and why or how the specific line could
leave my computer unbooteable. I've used CCleaner for the past six
years and run it several times a week including the registry
cleaner and have never had any problem with it, but judging from
your comments, my good luck may be about to run out anytime...

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/1089/ccleaneruo9.jpg

Doubtful.

Just about anything could cause your computer to stop booting.

I doubt you are getting any tangible benefit if you have been using CCleaner
'for years' on a machine. Also - if it keeps finding things to get rid of -
you must have some other poor maintenance habits you should address. ;-)

In other words - what else do you do to properly maintain your pc?
 
M

Méndez

Doubtful.

Just about anything could cause your computer to stop booting.

I doubt you are getting any tangible benefit if you have been using
CCleaner 'for years' on a machine. Also - if it keeps finding things to
get rid of - you must have some other poor maintenance habits you should
address. ;-)

That's my point, my computer has never had booting issues that were related
to software, so I must be doing something right. The things CCleaner finds
are not the same things it gets rid of, but newly added, things that are
normally added to the registry when you move files and uninstall
applications to which shortcuts, application paths, unused file extentions,
and missing shared dlls for which registry values are left behind.
The most benefit I expect from the appication is the freed disc space from
the temp files it removes, the registry crap may be insignificant enough to
ignore but if I never cleaned it, there would be thousands left by now, and
that is my concern so I'd like to know which line is the most likely to
damage the boot so I can avoid messing with it.

In other words - what else do you do to properly maintain your pc?

I run NOD32 antivirus regularly, not to often cause it has already cleaned a
few bugs and it doesn't detect anything anymore I've also run other
antivirus scanners like ClamWin, Dr. Web, BitDefender, and have previously
installed Avast and Avira, online scans only once found something they could
not remove and Avast removed it, so I don't trust them anymore. Other
installed security applications are Malwarebytes Anti-Malware and A squared
free, which removed some trojans a few months ago and nothing
since then. I clean the cookies, Internet temp files and system temp files,
so I don't have security or system issues of any kind, my computer is as
fast as it has ever been so I'd like to know what poor maintenance habits I
should address?

And about the image, which specific line should I uncheck? I mean, everyone
warns about cleaning the registry but no one says which specific areas are
to be avoided cause I doubt removing application paths could damage the
system, other registry values are nothing more than shortcuts that are left
orphaned, valued for unused file extensions and other insificant but
cumbersosme crap and I seriously doubt they should be left where they are
and accumulate
 
M

Mike Torello

Méndez said:
the registry crap may be insignificant enough to
ignore but if I never cleaned it, there would be thousands left by now, and
that is my concern so I'd like to know which line is the most likely to
damage the boot so I can avoid messing with it.

You'll never know that in advance, but you WILL know using hindsight!
 
K

Ken Blake, MVP

Would someone take a look at the image and explain to me what line would
cause registry damage and why or how the specific line could leave my
computer unbooteable. I've used CCleaner for the past six years and run it
several times a week including the registry cleaner and have never had any
problem with it, but judging from your comments, my good luck may be about
to run out anytime...


Your last phrase "my good luck may be about to run out anytime..." is
the significant one. None of us claims that every time someone uses a
registry cleaner a terrible problem results. The point is that there
is always a *risk* of a problem, and the problem could render the
computer unable to boot. Since using a registry cleaner does nothing
of any real value, it is foolhardy to run that risk.

Although the CCleaner registry cleaner is among the least dangerous
registry cleaners, its risk is somewhat less than most of them. But
since it also achieves no benefit, running it is a bad bargain just as
it is with any other.
 
N

Nate Grossman

Nate Grossman said:
It works great for incremental/differential images, and for backing up
only data if that's all one needs to do.

The boot disk has what is needed for backing up to another
disk/partiition. What other drivers might one need?

Leonard?... Leonard?... Leonard?...
 
L

Leonard Grey

You think I have nothing else to do?

In order to function, an operating system needs driver support for the
computer's essential hardware.

Read the True Image user forum to see if users have complained in the
past about having no hardware support for RAID, network cards and eSATA.
 
T

Twayne

BobN said:
It's the "usual crowd" with the usual boilerplate. I have seen the
identical posts dozens of times word for word. In spite of the fact
that millions of people routinely use registry cleaners, these
no-nothings continue to try and terrify users.

They're worse than no-nothings because most of them know better; they
are simply power-maggots, I mean, powerless, err, power mongers. And a
few actually believe their own closed minded tripe. It must be a
pitiful existence for some.

Cheers,

Twayne
 

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