Refill inks permanence test

[John McWilliams]

Incomprehensible "Wilhelm" doesn't follow this newsgroup, otherwise he
would have discovered that no one here uses the inks he was wasting his
time testing.

Prints are apparently interrogated under "450 lux" light for "12 hours
per day." Admittedly I don't know how bright that is, but it just may be
a torture test. My images are subjected to normal room light, away from
direct sun. Special projects are kept away in dark drawers and shelves.
They're in perfect condition after several years.

450 Lux sounds bright, all right, but don't know why he doesn't keep it
on 24/7; it's all projection and interpretation anyway. I suppose
there's reciprocity failure in these tests, or one could see exposing a
photo to 5,000 Lux for 2 minutes and determine how many decades the
image will last.

Is there real meat to the allegations he's funded by the Epsons and
Canons and HPs of the world?

 

[measekite]

I read this article a month or two ago. It's a great article and
Wilhelm has made good contributions. However, when people who are very
critical customers, such as the artist Neil Slade, discuss their
practical, discerning use of aftermarket inks, the brands that Wilhelm
mentioned are not considered.

that is not true. cartridge world CLAIMS to sell Sensinent Formulabs
ink which is highly touted by the cult. since wilhelm tested this ink
and found it inferior then it is apparent wilhelm did cover all of the
inks. since the relabelers do not discose what they sell it is very
likely that wilhelm covered what they relabel and market

Every mention I've seen about Staples ink says that it's junk (and
overpriced junk, too). The only reloading ink that I saw at Fry's
recently, was "one size fits all,"

i was at frys and say some junk ink that claimed it was for a canon
printer and was next to the canon inks

and at quite a stiff price considering that the kit was from China.
And the store manager told me that if I didn't like the ink, I was the
stuckee ("If you open it, you can't return it.").

I don't think that we can expect good quality from sellers named
"Ike's Ink Madhouse," "Inkhouse Insanity," "Cartridges R Us,"
"Ink-o-rama," and "Inkjet Whoopie! ('Trust us: we've sold billions of
cartridges')"

Slade likes MIS ink (not IMS one-size-for-all that Costco used to
sell), Computer Friends, and Inkgrabber (for reloads). Slade uses
Canon printers. It's really too bad that Wilhelm didn't test the more
serious of these ink sources.

but they did. the above mentioned are relabelers labels not the
mfg/formulator.

I recently ordered three cartridges from Inkgrabber for my two HP
machines. So far, I'm pleased with the quality and certainly the
price. My only complaint is that they shipped it in a paper bag -- and
that, to me, is disrespectful and potentially serious.

fly by night relabeling unprofessional hawkers. yopu said it and that
is what i have been saying all along

Too bad that Wilhelm didn't try better products -- I trust his
research; too bad that the sample wasn't what we in this group would
want to hear about.

but it is. many in this group tout Formulabs. i even thought they
might be the best of the bunch but they do not sell under their own name
and after the wilhelm test i would have many seond thoughts. they also
sold a bad batch of ink last year.

 

[measekite]

Incomprehensible "Wilhelm" doesn't follow this newsgroup, otherwise he
would have discovered that no one here uses the inks he was wasting
his time testing.

he probably does and concluded that the people in this ng do not know
what they are using since the relabelers will not tell them. he found a
representative sample of ink to test based on the mfg/formulator and not
on the relabeler who sells them

 

[Hendo]

Is there real meat to the allegations he's funded by the Epsons and
Canons and HPs of the world?

"Wilhelm" is a for profit company. The OEM are his primary clients.
Don't bite the hand that feed you.

 

[Richard Steinfeld]

Good choice...MIS ink is amazing aftermarket ink and works great on
Epson paper.

Since MIS sells ink formulated for specific printers, as all ink should
be, I'd like to know what printer you use. Otherwise, for example, I
don't know how well MIS ink will work in my HP printer.

Thanks.

Richard

 

[Ian]

Since MIS sells ink formulated for specific printers, as all ink should
be, I'd like to know what printer you use. Otherwise, for example, I
don't know how well MIS ink will work in my HP printer.

Thanks.

Richard

Great Choice. HP makes the best printers. What model of HP printer do
you own.

I have several HP printers.

HP 970
HP 5940
HP 7760

All of them I use aftermarket ink. The HP pigment black ink I use is
darker and richer than the OEM. I would never use anything other than
aftermarket inks in my printers, OEM ink is a waste of money and time.

 

[Hendo]

Since MIS sells ink formulated for specific printers, as all ink should
be, I'd like to know what printer you use. Otherwise, for example, I
don't know how well MIS ink will work in my HP printer.



Richard

Great Choice. HP makes the best printers. What model of HP printer do
you own.

I have several HP printers.


HP 970
HP 5940
HP 7760


All of them I use aftermarket ink. The HP pigment black ink I use is
darker and richer than the OEM. I would never use anything other than
aftermarket inks in my printers, OEM ink is a waste of money and time.

 

[Richard Steinfeld]

Richard Steinfeld wrote:




Great Choice. HP makes the best printers. What model of HP printer do
you own.

An 850c and a 940c. This is a new experience for me because I've used
only laser printers and before that dot matrices, and before that daisy
wheels. I still have an Olympia typewriter (made by Nakajima) which
doubles as a slow but sturdy printer.

Being used to churning out documents and references for myself, buying
OEM ink is simply insane: it's priced for wealthy dillitantes (perhaps
Republicans).

These two inkjet printers dropped into my lap. I'm fascinated with them.
Why do you say that HP's printers are the best?

I have several HP printers.

HP 970
HP 5940
HP 7760

All of them I use aftermarket ink. The HP pigment black ink I use is
darker and richer than the OEM. I would never use anything other than
aftermarket inks in my printers, OEM ink is a waste of money and time.

Please tell me (us) which ink that you like for your HPs. I've only used
the OE ink in the 850, and only the Inkgrabber refills in the 940. I'm
in the US. Even if you're in a different country than I am, your
information will be useful to someone!

I'm having a bizarre misfeed problem with the 940, which appears to be a
software/firmware problem within the printer itself.

Richard

 

[Richard Steinfeld]

Richard Steinfeld wrote:






Great Choice. HP makes the best printers. What model of HP printer do
you own.

I have several HP printers.


HP 970
HP 5940
HP 7760


All of them I use aftermarket ink. The HP pigment black ink I use is
darker and richer than the OEM. I would never use anything other than
aftermarket inks in my printers, OEM ink is a waste of money and time.

Uh...
Are you "Ian" or "Hendo?"
Both of you posted the identical message.
Siamese twins?
A pair of HP cartridges joined at the carriage?

Richard

 

[measekite]

Since MIS sells ink formulated for specific printers, as all ink
should be, I'd like to know what printer you use. Otherwise, for
example, I don't know how well MIS ink will work in my HP printer.

it might work maginally ok in january and poor in february and not at
all in march. you see there is not guarantee that you will get the same
thing from them each time and they will not tell you what they are
selling. one thing about canon is consistency. and yes you have to pay
more for that, the good results, fade resistency, and reduced risk of
clogging the printhead.

 

[measekite]

Richard Steinfeld wrote:




Great Choice. HP makes the best printers. What model of HP printer do
you own.

I have several HP printers.

HP 970
HP 5940
HP 7760

All of them I use aftermarket ink. The HP pigment black ink I use is
darker and richer than the OEM.

oh i see hp is better than oem. okaaaaay :-*

 

[Arthur Entlich]

In fairness to Henry Wilhelm (that's his name, but the way), he is paid
to try to determine image permanence for long term. The method he uses
is called accelerated aging, and of course, it is a type of torture
test, and of course we can only make assumptions about how accurately it
represents true longitudinal testing.

The other choice is to wait 50 or 100 or 200 years, but I'm not sure I
will be around by then, and it sure won't help me now, when I want to
try to make an intelligent decision.

I don't disagree with the point you are trying to make, BTW. It's a bit
like saying placing a sheet of plastic in an oven at 350 degrees F for 5
minutes is the same as it sitting at room temperature for 5 years.
There is a point that the testing can go beyond the threshold of the
materials.

However, what we do know after literally close to 100 years of testing
of color pigments and dyes used in things like cloth, is that the major
damage comes from UV and white light activation of the colorants causing
them to either become bleached or otherwise altered by oxidation, or
activated or energized by certain light frequencies and literally sent
off the material into the air.

It is therefore not unreasonable to use fairly bright lighting (and 450
lux is bright display lighting) for 12 hours a day and to interpolate
the results long term from the fading process. Hardly perfect, but not
outrageous either.

Museums have contracted tests like these for years and they have proven
to be relatively accurate long term. Certainly, dark keeping is another
issue. Images kept in the dark can still suffer from some type of color
alteration, but usually are more stable in those conditions.

If your read the fine print, you'll find that Canon indicated that their
newer "Chromalife 100 inks" only offer 100 years in dark keeping with
minimal short term exposure to room lighting.

I agree that many dye and pigment inks kept in home display environments
will last a pretty long time, especially under glass, but office
settings, for instance, with many bright fluorescent bulbs can change
that quickly.

Under any circumstances, as long as the test has some validity and it is
standardized, the result will supply some sense of scale. If one ink
and paper combination is rated for 18 months while another is 200 years,
I think you can probably safely assume the 200 year combination will
give you many more years of fade resistant service versus the 18 month one.

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

I believe there may be some truth to this, but I do not believe he would
skew the result.. he may have skewed which inks he used, but the results
are likely accurate.

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Particularly with dye inks, paper is critical to the permanence of the
image. The methods used to lock in the dyes, and the chemical
components within the coatings can make or break a dye ink.

No reputable fading test is complete unless it reports the paper types
used with dye inks particularly. Yes, the ink is only half of the story.

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Wilhelm's research isn't "funded" per se, by any group of companies. He
developed testing methods for different colorant over the years. For
instance, his early tests were on photographic papers and film dyes.
SO, was he "funded" by Kodak and Fuji when they asked him to test their
products? They certainly paid for the tests, but that was after he
established himself as a reliable and honest source for the information.

These tests and labs are costly, so he has to sell his services, and the
OEM manufacturers seem to be the ones most interested in the results. I
am sure he'd be happy to test 3rd party inks if he was paid you the
manufacturers to do so.

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

However, if 3rd party ink manufacturers wanted to prove the "value" of
their inks, all they would have to do is approach him and pay for
testing. I very much doubt he would refuse the work, and think of the
clout the 3rd arty ink company could have if proven by Wilhelm to be of
equal or better quality to OEM in terms of fading.

Art

 

[Taliesyn]

In fairness to Henry Wilhelm (that's his name, but the way), he is paid
to try to determine image permanence for long term.

Thanks for the lengthy explanation, Art. If it's true Wilhelms org.
were paid by Big Brother (OEMs), then that would explain why only brands
not recommended by people here were tested. OEMs knew what the result
would be (poor quality), and could use the skewed test results for their
publicity purposes to promote their own products. If this is true, then
"The Independent Testing Lab" of Wilhelms loses some of its credibility.
I have seen the results and don't accept them as an across the board
summary of aftermarket inks in general.

But then, regardless of what Wilhelms might ever disclose, it would not
stop me from using the inks I use as they have fulfilled the most
important requirement: do they satisfy my own rather picky requirement -
price and quality?

-Taliesyn

 

[measekite]

Wilhelm's research isn't "funded" per se, by any group of companies.
He developed testing methods for different colorant over the years.
For instance, his early tests were on photographic papers and film
dyes. SO, was he "funded" by Kodak and Fuji when they asked him to
test their products? They certainly paid for the tests, but that was
after he established himself as a reliable and honest source for the
information.

These tests and labs are costly, so he has to sell his services, and
the OEM manufacturers seem to be the ones most interested in the results.

of course the relabelers do not want that information out.

 

[measekite]

Thanks for the lengthy explanation, Art. If it's true Wilhelms org.
were paid by Big Brother (OEMs), then that would explain why only brands
not recommended by people here were tested. OEMs knew what the result
would be (poor quality), and could use the skewed test results for their
publicity purposes to promote their own products. If this is true, then
"The Independent Testing Lab" of Wilhelms loses some of its credibility.
I have seen the results and don't accept them as an across the board
summary of aftermarket inks in general.

But then, regardless of what Wilhelms might ever disclose, it would
not stop me from using the inks I use as they have fulfilled the most
important requirement:

yes we all know the generics stretch your allowance so you can afford to
go to the prom next year and still get a pizza once a month.

 

[zakezuke]

measekite said:

yes we all know the generics stretch your allowance so you can afford to
go to the prom next year and still get a pizza once a month.

Pizza can cost as high as $20 for specality one, or $5.00 a pop for a
Little Caesers "pizza pizza". Your average delivery pizza runs about
$12.50 or so. The current cost of OEM ink for the canon ip4200/5200 is
$13.50 each, or $17 for the big black. That's 5 delivery pizzas with a
two dollar tip each.

According to measekite, one can save enough money using aftermarket ink
to buy a pizza once a month, and this is clearly true, in fact just
buying aftermarket bulk black ink represents an average delivery pizza.


A highschool prom can cost upwards of $600. If a guy a tux will run
you about $100 for a rental. Limo will run you about $400. Flowers
another $30, Dinner easily another $50. Not to speak of the actual
prom tickets which could be anywhere from $40 on up.

Given a kit from hobbicolors costs about $22 shipped, and represents a
value of $284 of OEM ink, assuming you use one set of cartridges a
month, you could save enough money to pay for a high school prom.

So according to measekite, one can save so much money using aftermarket
ink that in one year you can pay for a highschool prom and have a pizza
once a month. If you use one set of cartridges per month, and bought
two hobbicolors kits, that's $786. Subtract delivery pizza at $14.50
each that leaves you with $612.

I have to say Measekite is correct, one *can* save so much using
aftermarket ink to pay for a highschool prom and have a pizza once a
month with a $2.00 tip by buying aftermarket ink for only a year.
Granted most schools have printers you can use so students don't have
to shell out for ink, but assuming you had to print at home and needed
to save up for pizza and prom, I have to say Measekite hit the nail on
the head with this statement.

Use aftermarket ink... have your pizza once a month and send your kid
to prom.