Random Question (or 2?) About Bookmarks

[Gordon Bentley-Mix on news.microsoft.com]

I'm posting the following on behalf of Peter T. Daniels because:
* it seems very important to him
* he doesn't like the answer I gave him - which is that I don't know
* he has an expectation that the greater NG community can provide an answer
but for some reason he doesn't see fit to post it in a new thread

The question is: "s there a logical reason why bookmarks are not shown
when Non- Printing Characters or Hidden Text is shown, but you have to
specifically request bookmarks to be shown?"

Or maybe it's: "Is there a logical reason why this particular subtype of
bookmark [hidden ones created when inserting a cross-reference] isn't shown
even when "show bookmarks" is checked?"

(Although apparently the second question is somehow "included" in the first,
so maybe it's just one question... ~shrug~ He's the grammar expert, so who am
I to argue?)

Anyone have a clue? Anyone give a rat's?
--
Cheers!

Gordon Bentley-Mix
Word MVP

Please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup.

Read the original version of this post in the Office Discussion Groups - no
membership required!

 

[macropod]

Hi Gordon,

The simple answer is "by design".

Bookmark boundary markers are neither 'Non- Printing Characters' nor 'Hidden Text', any more than field braces are, so there's no
reason why they should be shown or hidden just because of the 'Non- Printing Characters' or 'Hidden Text' setting.

As for the hidden bookmarks Word applies to Headings etc, the only time one *might* need to see their boundaries is after stuffing
up a cross-reference by extending the bookmarked range beyond the heading (usually by hitting the enter key somewhere in the
already-cross-referenced heading). Of course, this becomes pretty obvious anyway once the cross-references are updated and it's easy
to fix (recreate the cross-reference).

 

[Gordon Bentley-Mix]

There ya go Peter. It's "by design".
--
Cheers!

Gordon Bentley-Mix
Word MVP

Hi Gordon,

The simple answer is "by design".

Bookmark boundary markers are neither 'Non- Printing Characters' nor
'Hidden Text', any more than field braces are, so there's no reason why
they should be shown or hidden just because of the 'Non- Printing
Characters' or 'Hidden Text' setting.

As for the hidden bookmarks Word applies to Headings etc, the only time
one *might* need to see their boundaries is after stuffing up a
cross-reference by extending the bookmarked range beyond the heading
(usually by hitting the enter key somewhere in the
already-cross-referenced heading). Of course, this becomes pretty obvious
anyway once the cross-references are updated and it's easy to fix
(recreate the cross-reference).

--
Cheers
macropod
[Microsoft MVP - Word]


"Gordon Bentley-Mix on news.microsoft.com"

I'm posting the following on behalf of Peter T. Daniels because:
* it seems very important to him
* he doesn't like the answer I gave him - which is that I don't know
* he has an expectation that the greater NG community can provide an
answer
but for some reason he doesn't see fit to post it in a new thread

The question is: "s there a logical reason why bookmarks are not shown
when Non- Printing Characters or Hidden Text is shown, but you have to
specifically request bookmarks to be shown?"

Or maybe it's: "Is there a logical reason why this particular subtype of
bookmark [hidden ones created when inserting a cross-reference] isn't
shown
even when "show bookmarks" is checked?"

(Although apparently the second question is somehow "included" in the
first,
so maybe it's just one question... ~shrug~ He's the grammar expert, so
who am
I to argue?)

Anyone have a clue? Anyone give a rat's?
--
Cheers!

Gordon Bentley-Mix
Word MVP

Please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup.

Read the original version of this post in the Office Discussion Groups -
no
membership required!

 

[Peter T. Daniels]

"Why?" "Because."

From the user's p.o.v., it makes little or no sense -- as seen from
the original question. Macropod's "might" is _exactly_ the situation
the OP faced.

Do we put it down to just another example of MS not considering the
user at all, as when the Ribbon was introduced?

There ya go Peter. It's "by design".
--
Cheers!

Gordon Bentley-Mix
Word MVP

Hi Gordon,

The simple answer is "by design".

Bookmark boundary markers are neither 'Non- Printing Characters' nor
'Hidden Text', any more than field braces are, so there's no reason why
they should be shown or hidden just because of the 'Non- Printing
Characters' or 'Hidden Text' setting.

As for the hidden bookmarks Word applies to Headings etc, the only time
one *might* need to see their boundaries is after stuffing up a
cross-reference by extending the bookmarked range beyond the heading
(usually by hitting the enter key somewhere in the
already-cross-referenced heading). Of course, this becomes pretty obvious
anyway once the cross-references are updated and it's easy to fix
(recreate the cross-reference).

"Gordon Bentley-Mix on news.microsoft.com"

I'm posting the following on behalf of Peter T. Daniels because:
*  it seems very important to him
*  he doesn't like the answer I gave him - which is that I don't know
*  he has an expectation that the greater NG community can provide an
answer
but for some reason he doesn't see fit to post it in a new thread
The question is: "s there a logical reason why bookmarks are not shown
when Non- Printing Characters or Hidden Text is shown, but you have to
specifically request bookmarks to be shown?"
Or maybe it's: "Is there a logical reason why this particular subtype of
bookmark [hidden ones created when inserting a cross-reference] isn't
shown
even when "show bookmarks" is checked?"
(Although apparently the second question is somehow "included" in the
first,
so maybe it's just one question... ~shrug~ He's the grammar expert, so
who am
I to argue?)
Anyone have a clue? Anyone give a rat's?
--
Cheers!
Gordon Bentley-Mix
Word MVP
Please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup.
Read the original version of this post in the Office Discussion Groups-
no
membership required!-

 

[Gordon Bentley-Mix on news.microsoft.com]

You can put it down to whatever you like, but for me it was pretty easy to
figure out after the first time I inserted a big chunk of content in front of
something that I had a cross-reference to and suddenly my updated
cross-reference had all this extra content in it. (For the OP it was a bit
less obvious because all he ever did was put an extra return in front of a
couple of captions, but if he'd dumped in 10 pages with page breaks and
images - something I've done a couple of times - he probably would have
worked it out quick smart.)

Sure it's annoying, and I still do it sometimes without thinking, but
because I know how it works, it's no big deal. I just accept that it works
that way and work around it. I know that Word's not perfect and that it has
its limitations, but because I'm the one with the brain and the computer is
just a dumb machine, I accept that I'm the one who has to take responsibility
for my actions.

And in any case, even if I *could* see the "hidden" bookmark created by the
cross-reference, it really wouldn't change that much. I still wouldn't be
able to get in front of it unless I put my cursor on the line before, which
is what I've learned to do anyway. The only thing that being able to see the
bookmark might do is help to remind me to do what I already know to do from
experience.

I don't think it's in the same class as the Ribbon in that, although it's a
bother, it's one that can be worked around extremely easily using native Word
functionality. The Ribbon is a different story and requires more than just
what Word offers through the UI to deal with - although as Greg keeps telling
you it's not rocket science.

If you really don't like Word and MSFT that much, stop using it. Nobody's
holding a gun to your head. Find something else that works better for you and
use it instead. Or conquer the problem from the inside: get a job with MSFT
on the Word design team. I'm sure they'd love to have you.
--
Cheers!

Gordon Bentley-Mix
Word MVP

Please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup.

Read the original version of this post in the Office Discussion Groups - no
membership required!

"Why?" "Because."

From the user's p.o.v., it makes little or no sense -- as seen from
the original question. Macropod's "might" is _exactly_ the situation
the OP faced.

Do we put it down to just another example of MS not considering the
user at all, as when the Ribbon was introduced?

There ya go Peter. It's "by design".
--
Cheers!

Gordon Bentley-Mix
Word MVP

Hi Gordon,

The simple answer is "by design".

Bookmark boundary markers are neither 'Non- Printing Characters' nor
'Hidden Text', any more than field braces are, so there's no reason why
they should be shown or hidden just because of the 'Non- Printing
Characters' or 'Hidden Text' setting.

As for the hidden bookmarks Word applies to Headings etc, the only time
one *might* need to see their boundaries is after stuffing up a
cross-reference by extending the bookmarked range beyond the heading
(usually by hitting the enter key somewhere in the
already-cross-referenced heading). Of course, this becomes pretty obvious
anyway once the cross-references are updated and it's easy to fix
(recreate the cross-reference).

"Gordon Bentley-Mix on news.microsoft.com"
<gordon(dot)bentleymix(at)gmail(dot)com> wrote in message
I'm posting the following on behalf of Peter T. Daniels because:
* it seems very important to him
* he doesn't like the answer I gave him - which is that I don't know
* he has an expectation that the greater NG community can provide an
answer
but for some reason he doesn't see fit to post it in a new thread

The question is: "s there a logical reason why bookmarks are not shown
when Non- Printing Characters or Hidden Text is shown, but you have to
specifically request bookmarks to be shown?"

Or maybe it's: "Is there a logical reason why this particular subtype of
bookmark [hidden ones created when inserting a cross-reference] isn't
shown
even when "show bookmarks" is checked?"

(Although apparently the second question is somehow "included" in the
first,
so maybe it's just one question... ~shrug~ He's the grammar expert, so
who am
I to argue?)

Anyone have a clue? Anyone give a rat's?

Gordon Bentley-Mix
Word MVP

Please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup.

Read the original version of this post in the Office Discussion Groups -
no
membership required!-

 

[macropod]

Any user who can't figure out that the cross-referenced range hasn't been extended - as the updated cross-reference would clearly
show, is unlikely to be helped by the appearance (or lack thereof) of a couple of bookmark delimiters.

--
Cheers
macropod
[Microsoft MVP - Word]


"Why?" "Because."

From the user's p.o.v., it makes little or no sense -- as seen from
the original question. Macropod's "might" is _exactly_ the situation
the OP faced.

Do we put it down to just another example of MS not considering the
user at all, as when the Ribbon was introduced?

There ya go Peter. It's "by design".
--
Cheers!

Gordon Bentley-Mix
Word MVP

Hi Gordon,

The simple answer is "by design".

Bookmark boundary markers are neither 'Non- Printing Characters' nor
'Hidden Text', any more than field braces are, so there's no reason why
they should be shown or hidden just because of the 'Non- Printing
Characters' or 'Hidden Text' setting.

As for the hidden bookmarks Word applies to Headings etc, the only time
one *might* need to see their boundaries is after stuffing up a
cross-reference by extending the bookmarked range beyond the heading
(usually by hitting the enter key somewhere in the
already-cross-referenced heading). Of course, this becomes pretty obvious
anyway once the cross-references are updated and it's easy to fix
(recreate the cross-reference).

"Gordon Bentley-Mix on news.microsoft.com"

I'm posting the following on behalf of Peter T. Daniels because:
* it seems very important to him
* he doesn't like the answer I gave him - which is that I don't know
* he has an expectation that the greater NG community can provide an
answer
but for some reason he doesn't see fit to post it in a new thread
The question is: "s there a logical reason why bookmarks are not shown
when Non- Printing Characters or Hidden Text is shown, but you have to
specifically request bookmarks to be shown?"
Or maybe it's: "Is there a logical reason why this particular subtype of
bookmark [hidden ones created when inserting a cross-reference] isn't
shown
even when "show bookmarks" is checked?"
(Although apparently the second question is somehow "included" in the
first,
so maybe it's just one question... ~shrug~ He's the grammar expert, so
who am
I to argue?)
Anyone have a clue? Anyone give a rat's?
--
Cheers!
Gordon Bentley-Mix
Word MVP
Please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup.
Read the original version of this post in the Office Discussion Groups -
no
membership required!-

 

[Stefan Blom]

True, but it would be easier for *us* to help users if we could tell them:
"Display bookmarks; then you'll see that your cross-references make use of
bookmarks."

--
Stefan Blom
Microsoft Word MVP

Any user who can't figure out that the cross-referenced range hasn't been
extended - as the updated cross-reference would clearly show, is unlikely
to be helped by the appearance (or lack thereof) of a couple of bookmark
delimiters.

--
Cheers
macropod
[Microsoft MVP - Word]


"Why?" "Because."

From the user's p.o.v., it makes little or no sense -- as seen from
the original question. Macropod's "might" is _exactly_ the situation
the OP faced.

Do we put it down to just another example of MS not considering the
user at all, as when the Ribbon was introduced?

There ya go Peter. It's "by design".
--
Cheers!

Gordon Bentley-Mix
Word MVP

Hi Gordon,

The simple answer is "by design".

Bookmark boundary markers are neither 'Non- Printing Characters' nor
'Hidden Text', any more than field braces are, so there's no reason why
they should be shown or hidden just because of the 'Non- Printing
Characters' or 'Hidden Text' setting.

As for the hidden bookmarks Word applies to Headings etc, the only time
one *might* need to see their boundaries is after stuffing up a
cross-reference by extending the bookmarked range beyond the heading
(usually by hitting the enter key somewhere in the
already-cross-referenced heading). Of course, this becomes pretty
obvious
anyway once the cross-references are updated and it's easy to fix
(recreate the cross-reference).

"Gordon Bentley-Mix on news.microsoft.com"
<gordon(dot)bentleymix(at)gmail(dot)com> wrote in message
I'm posting the following on behalf of Peter T. Daniels because:
* it seems very important to him
* he doesn't like the answer I gave him - which is that I don't know
* he has an expectation that the greater NG community can provide an
answer
but for some reason he doesn't see fit to post it in a new thread

The question is: "s there a logical reason why bookmarks are not
shown
when Non- Printing Characters or Hidden Text is shown, but you have to
specifically request bookmarks to be shown?"

Or maybe it's: "Is there a logical reason why this particular subtype
of
bookmark [hidden ones created when inserting a cross-reference] isn't
shown
even when "show bookmarks" is checked?"

(Although apparently the second question is somehow "included" in the
first,
so maybe it's just one question... ~shrug~ He's the grammar expert, so
who am
I to argue?)

Anyone have a clue? Anyone give a rat's?

Gordon Bentley-Mix
Word MVP

Please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup.

Read the original version of this post in the Office Discussion
Groups -
no
membership required!-

 

[Peter T. Daniels]

I must say, Stefan _always_ manages to grasp the problem.

True, but it would be easier for *us* to help users if we could tell them:
"Display bookmarks; then you'll see that your cross-references make use of
bookmarks."

--
Stefan Blom
Microsoft Word MVP

Any user who can't figure out that the cross-referenced range hasn't been
extended - as the updated cross-reference would clearly show, is unlikely
to be helped by the appearance (or lack thereof) of a couple of bookmark
delimiters.

"Why?" "Because."

From the user's p.o.v., it makes little or no sense -- as seen from
the original question. Macropod's "might" is _exactly_ the situation
the OP faced.

Do we put it down to just another example of MS not considering the
user at all, as when the Ribbon was introduced?

There ya go Peter. It's "by design".
--
Cheers!
Gordon Bentley-Mix
Word MVP

Hi Gordon,
The simple answer is "by design".
Bookmark boundary markers are neither 'Non- Printing Characters' nor
'Hidden Text', any more than field braces are, so there's no reason why
they should be shown or hidden just because of the 'Non- Printing
Characters' or 'Hidden Text' setting.
As for the hidden bookmarks Word applies to Headings etc, the only time
one *might* need to see their boundaries is after stuffing up a
cross-reference by extending the bookmarked range beyond the heading
(usually by hitting the enter key somewhere in the
already-cross-referenced heading). Of course, this becomes pretty
obvious
anyway once the cross-references are updated and it's easy to fix
(recreate the cross-reference).
--
Cheers
macropod
[Microsoft MVP - Word]
"Gordon Bentley-Mix on news.microsoft.com"
<gordon(dot)bentleymix(at)gmail(dot)com> wrote in message
I'm posting the following on behalf of Peter T. Daniels because:
* it seems very important to him
* he doesn't like the answer I gave him - which is that I don't know
* he has an expectation that the greater NG community can provide an
answer
but for some reason he doesn't see fit to post it in a new thread
The question is: "s there a logical reason why bookmarks are not
shown
when Non- Printing Characters or Hidden Text is shown, but you haveto
specifically request bookmarks to be shown?"
Or maybe it's: "Is there a logical reason why this particular subtype
of
bookmark [hidden ones created when inserting a cross-reference] isn't
shown
even when "show bookmarks" is checked?"
(Although apparently the second question is somehow "included" in the
first,
so maybe it's just one question... ~shrug~ He's the grammar expert,so
who am
I to argue?)
Anyone have a clue? Anyone give a rat's?
--

 

[Peter T. Daniels]

The scientist wants to know "Why?" The engineer is satisfied with
"How?"

The way I discovered and dealt with a similar problem was by using
sequences of cross references in the form "examples (61)-(63)."
Naturally I entered the two x-refs first (because, before 2007,
leaving the x-ref box caused it to flip back to its first screen) and
backspaced to insert the en-dash. The second field retains its gray
highlighting during two backspaces, but if you type the en-dash when
you've reached only the first backspace, even though the cursor is
outside the parentheses the dash ends up inside the x-ref field and
messes up the updating. But without displaying field codes, you can't
know that. The bookmark x-ref problem is _exactly the same problem_ --
it requires being able to see the delimiters at least the first time
something goes wrong, so as to diagnose the problem -- yet the two
functions that _to the user_ are identical, have been handled _by the
programmers_ very differently.

_This_ is the defect that needs to be accounted for.

As someone here keeps saying, If you don't know the answer to a
question, don't try to answer it.

You can put it down to whatever you like, but for me it was pretty easy to
figure out after the first time I inserted a big chunk of content in front of
something that I had a cross-reference to and suddenly my updated
cross-reference had all this extra content in it. (For the OP it was a bit
less obvious because all he ever did was put an extra return in front of a
couple of captions, but if he'd dumped in 10 pages with page breaks and
images - something I've done a couple of times - he probably would have
worked it out quick smart.)

Sure it's annoying, and I still do it sometimes without thinking, but
because I know how it works, it's no big deal. I just accept that it works
that way and work around it. I know that Word's not perfect and that it has
its limitations, but because I'm the one with the brain and the computer is
just a dumb machine, I accept that I'm the one who has to take responsibility
for my actions.

And in any case, even if I *could* see the "hidden" bookmark created by the
cross-reference, it really wouldn't change that much. I still wouldn't be
able to get in front of it unless I put my cursor on the line before, which
is what I've learned to do anyway. The only thing that being able to see the
bookmark might do is help to remind me to do what I already know to do from
experience.

I don't think it's in the same class as the Ribbon in that, although it'sa
bother, it's one that can be worked around extremely easily using native Word
functionality. The Ribbon is a different story and requires more than just
what Word offers through the UI to deal with - although as Greg keeps telling
you it's not rocket science.

If you really don't like Word and MSFT that much, stop using it. Nobody's
holding a gun to your head. Find something else that works better for youand
use it instead. Or conquer the problem from the inside: get a job with MSFT
on the Word design team. I'm sure they'd love to have you.
--
Cheers!

Gordon Bentley-Mix
Word MVP

Please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup.

Read the original version of this post in the Office Discussion Groups - no
membership required!

"Why?" "Because."

From the user's p.o.v., it makes little or no sense -- as seen from
the original question. Macropod's "might" is _exactly_ the situation
the OP faced.

Do we put it down to just another example of MS not considering the
user at all, as when the Ribbon was introduced?

There ya go Peter. It's "by design".
--
Cheers!
Gordon Bentley-Mix
Word MVP

Hi Gordon,
The simple answer is "by design".
Bookmark boundary markers are neither 'Non- Printing Characters' nor
'Hidden Text', any more than field braces are, so there's no reasonwhy
they should be shown or hidden just because of the 'Non- Printing
Characters' or 'Hidden Text' setting.
As for the hidden bookmarks Word applies to Headings etc, the only time
one *might* need to see their boundaries is after stuffing up a
cross-reference by extending the bookmarked range beyond the heading
(usually by hitting the enter key somewhere in the
already-cross-referenced heading). Of course, this becomes pretty obvious
anyway once the cross-references are updated and it's easy to fix
(recreate the cross-reference).
--
Cheers
macropod
[Microsoft MVP - Word]
"Gordon Bentley-Mix on news.microsoft.com"
<gordon(dot)bentleymix(at)gmail(dot)com> wrote in message
I'm posting the following on behalf of Peter T. Daniels because:
*  it seems very important to him
*  he doesn't like the answer I gave him - which is that I don'tknow
*  he has an expectation that the greater NG community can provide an
answer
but for some reason he doesn't see fit to post it in a new thread
The question is: "s there a logical reason why bookmarks are not shown
when Non- Printing Characters or Hidden Text is shown, but you have to
specifically request bookmarks to be shown?"
Or maybe it's: "Is there a logical reason why this particular subtype of
bookmark [hidden ones created when inserting a cross-reference] isn't
shown
even when "show bookmarks" is checked?"
(Although apparently the second question is somehow "included" in the
first,
so maybe it's just one question... ~shrug~ He's the grammar expert, so
who am
I to argue?)
Anyone have a clue? Anyone give a rat's?
--

 

[Gordon Bentley-Mix]

But if you'll recall, I *said* I didn't know to begin with, and yet you
asked me again. And when I say you asked me, it's because you posted it as a
reply to my post (and then for some odd reason expected someone else to
answer). And although your question was related to the original post, it was
actually off topic, so the odds of someone else giving a knowledgeable
answer were pretty low - thus the reason for me posting this in a separate
thread. This is what you should have done to begin with if you really wanted
an answer. I'd have thought you would have worked that out by now.

However, all is not lost. At least you now have *an* answer - if not
necessarily the answer you wanted. And I have learned a valuable lesson as
well: I have been reminded not to feed the trolls.
--
Gordon Bentley-Mix
Word MVP

The scientist wants to know "Why?" The engineer is satisfied with
"How?"

The way I discovered and dealt with a similar problem was by using
sequences of cross references in the form "examples (61)-(63)."
Naturally I entered the two x-refs first (because, before 2007,
leaving the x-ref box caused it to flip back to its first screen) and
backspaced to insert the en-dash. The second field retains its gray
highlighting during two backspaces, but if you type the en-dash when
you've reached only the first backspace, even though the cursor is
outside the parentheses the dash ends up inside the x-ref field and
messes up the updating. But without displaying field codes, you can't
know that. The bookmark x-ref problem is _exactly the same problem_ --
it requires being able to see the delimiters at least the first time
something goes wrong, so as to diagnose the problem -- yet the two
functions that _to the user_ are identical, have been handled _by the
programmers_ very differently.

_This_ is the defect that needs to be accounted for.

As someone here keeps saying, If you don't know the answer to a
question, don't try to answer it.

You can put it down to whatever you like, but for me it was pretty easy
to
figure out after the first time I inserted a big chunk of content in
front of
something that I had a cross-reference to and suddenly my updated
cross-reference had all this extra content in it. (For the OP it was a
bit
less obvious because all he ever did was put an extra return in front of
a
couple of captions, but if he'd dumped in 10 pages with page breaks and
images - something I've done a couple of times - he probably would have
worked it out quick smart.)

Sure it's annoying, and I still do it sometimes without thinking, but
because I know how it works, it's no big deal. I just accept that it
works
that way and work around it. I know that Word's not perfect and that it
has
its limitations, but because I'm the one with the brain and the computer
is
just a dumb machine, I accept that I'm the one who has to take
responsibility
for my actions.

And in any case, even if I *could* see the "hidden" bookmark created by
the
cross-reference, it really wouldn't change that much. I still wouldn't be
able to get in front of it unless I put my cursor on the line before,
which
is what I've learned to do anyway. The only thing that being able to see
the
bookmark might do is help to remind me to do what I already know to do
from
experience.

I don't think it's in the same class as the Ribbon in that, although it's
a
bother, it's one that can be worked around extremely easily using native
Word
functionality. The Ribbon is a different story and requires more than
just
what Word offers through the UI to deal with - although as Greg keeps
telling
you it's not rocket science.

If you really don't like Word and MSFT that much, stop using it. Nobody's
holding a gun to your head. Find something else that works better for you
and
use it instead. Or conquer the problem from the inside: get a job with
MSFT
on the Word design team. I'm sure they'd love to have you.
--
Cheers!

Gordon Bentley-Mix
Word MVP

Please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup.

Read the original version of this post in the Office Discussion Groups -
no
membership required!

"Why?" "Because."

From the user's p.o.v., it makes little or no sense -- as seen from
the original question. Macropod's "might" is _exactly_ the situation
the OP faced.

Do we put it down to just another example of MS not considering the
user at all, as when the Ribbon was introduced?

On Aug 3, 6:33 am, "Gordon Bentley-Mix" <[email protected]>
wrote:
There ya go Peter. It's "by design".

Gordon Bentley-Mix
Word MVP

Hi Gordon,

The simple answer is "by design".

Bookmark boundary markers are neither 'Non- Printing Characters'
nor
'Hidden Text', any more than field braces are, so there's no reason
why
they should be shown or hidden just because of the 'Non- Printing
Characters' or 'Hidden Text' setting.

As for the hidden bookmarks Word applies to Headings etc, the only
time
one *might* need to see their boundaries is after stuffing up a
cross-reference by extending the bookmarked range beyond the
heading
(usually by hitting the enter key somewhere in the
already-cross-referenced heading). Of course, this becomes pretty
obvious
anyway once the cross-references are updated and it's easy to fix
(recreate the cross-reference).

"Gordon Bentley-Mix on news.microsoft.com"
<gordon(dot)bentleymix(at)gmail(dot)com> wrote in message
I'm posting the following on behalf of Peter T. Daniels because:
* it seems very important to him
* he doesn't like the answer I gave him - which is that I don't
know
* he has an expectation that the greater NG community can provide
an
answer
but for some reason he doesn't see fit to post it in a new thread

The question is: "s there a logical reason why bookmarks are
not shown
when Non- Printing Characters or Hidden Text is shown, but you
have to
specifically request bookmarks to be shown?"

Or maybe it's: "Is there a logical reason why this particular
subtype of
bookmark [hidden ones created when inserting a cross-reference]
isn't
shown
even when "show bookmarks" is checked?"

(Although apparently the second question is somehow "included" in
the
first,
so maybe it's just one question... ~shrug~ He's the grammar
expert, so
who am
I to argue?)

Anyone have a clue? Anyone give a rat's?
--

 

[Peter T. Daniels]

But if you'll recall, I *said* I didn't know to begin with, and yet you
asked me again. And when I say you asked me, it's because you posted it as a
reply to my post (and then for some odd reason expected someone else to
answer).

You must not read this newsgroup very often -- several people often
contribute to a single thread. And threads not infrequently discuss
imponderables such as why this or that decision may have been made.

And although your question was related to the original post, it was
actually off topic, so the odds of someone else giving a knowledgeable
answer were pretty low - thus the reason for me posting this in a separate
thread. This is what you should have done to begin with if you really wanted
an answer. I'd have thought you would have worked that out by now.

I don't think you'll find many threads that begin with asking
philosophical questions about the nature of Word. They follow
naturally from the discussions.

However, all is not lost. At least you now have *an* answer - if not
necessarily the answer you wanted. And I have learned a valuable lesson as
well: I have been reminded not to feed the trolls.

"Troll" refers to someone who posts an inflammatory question in a
newsgroup and sits back and watches the battles progress, without ever
participating again.

--
Gordon Bentley-Mix
Word MVP

The scientist wants to know "Why?" The engineer is satisfied with
"How?"

The way I discovered and dealt with a similar problem was by using
sequences of cross references in the form "examples (61)-(63)."
Naturally I entered the two x-refs first (because, before 2007,
leaving the x-ref box caused it to flip back to its first screen) and
backspaced to insert the en-dash. The second field retains its gray
highlighting during two backspaces, but if you type the en-dash when
you've reached only the first backspace, even though the cursor is
outside the parentheses the dash ends up inside the x-ref field and
messes up the updating. But without displaying field codes, you can't
know that. The bookmark x-ref problem is _exactly the same problem_ --
it requires being able to see the delimiters at least the first time
something goes wrong, so as to diagnose the problem -- yet the two
functions that _to the user_ are identical, have been handled _by the
programmers_ very differently.

_This_ is the defect that needs to be accounted for.

As someone here keeps saying, If you don't know the answer to a
question, don't try to answer it.

You can put it down to whatever you like, but for me it was pretty easy
to
figure out after the first time I inserted a big chunk of content in
front of
something that I had a cross-reference to and suddenly my updated
cross-reference had all this extra content in it. (For the OP it was a
bit
less obvious because all he ever did was put an extra return in front of
a
couple of captions, but if he'd dumped in 10 pages with page breaks and
images - something I've done a couple of times - he probably would have
worked it out quick smart.)
Sure it's annoying, and I still do it sometimes without thinking, but
because I know how it works, it's no big deal. I just accept that it
works
that way and work around it. I know that Word's not perfect and that it
has
its limitations, but because I'm the one with the brain and the computer
is
just a dumb machine, I accept that I'm the one who has to take
responsibility
for my actions.
And in any case, even if I *could* see the "hidden" bookmark created by
the
cross-reference, it really wouldn't change that much. I still wouldn'tbe
able to get in front of it unless I put my cursor on the line before,
which
is what I've learned to do anyway. The only thing that being able to see
the
bookmark might do is help to remind me to do what I already know to do
from
experience.
I don't think it's in the same class as the Ribbon in that, although it's
a
bother, it's one that can be worked around extremely easily using native
Word
functionality. The Ribbon is a different story and requires more than
just
what Word offers through the UI to deal with - although as Greg keeps
telling
you it's not rocket science.
If you really don't like Word and MSFT that much, stop using it. Nobody's
holding a gun to your head. Find something else that works better for you
and
use it instead. Or conquer the problem from the inside: get a job with
MSFT
on the Word design team. I'm sure they'd love to have you.
--
Cheers!
Gordon Bentley-Mix
Word MVP
Please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup.
Read the original version of this post in the Office Discussion Groups-
no
membership required!
:
"Why?" "Because."
From the user's p.o.v., it makes little or no sense -- as seen from
the original question. Macropod's "might" is _exactly_ the situation
the OP faced.
Do we put it down to just another example of MS not considering the
user at all, as when the Ribbon was introduced?
On Aug 3, 6:33 am, "Gordon Bentley-Mix" <[email protected]>
wrote:
There ya go Peter. It's "by design".
--
Cheers!
Gordon Bentley-Mix
Word MVP

Hi Gordon,
The simple answer is "by design".
Bookmark boundary markers are neither 'Non- Printing Characters'
nor
'Hidden Text', any more than field braces are, so there's no reason
why
they should be shown or hidden just because of the 'Non- Printing
Characters' or 'Hidden Text' setting.
As for the hidden bookmarks Word applies to Headings etc, the only
time
one *might* need to see their boundaries is after stuffing up a
cross-reference by extending the bookmarked range beyond the
heading
(usually by hitting the enter key somewhere in the
already-cross-referenced heading). Of course, this becomes pretty
obvious
anyway once the cross-references are updated and it's easy to fix
(recreate the cross-reference).
--
Cheers
macropod
[Microsoft MVP - Word]
"Gordon Bentley-Mix on news.microsoft.com"
<gordon(dot)bentleymix(at)gmail(dot)com> wrote in message
I'm posting the following on behalf of Peter T. Daniels because:
*  it seems very important to him
*  he doesn't like the answer I gave him - which is that I don't
know
*  he has an expectation that the greater NG community can provide
an
answer
but for some reason he doesn't see fit to post it in a new thread
The question is: "s there a logical reason why bookmarks are
not shown
when Non- Printing Characters or Hidden Text is shown, but you
have to
specifically request bookmarks to be shown?"
Or maybe it's: "Is there a logical reason why this particular
subtype of
bookmark [hidden ones created when inserting a cross-reference]
isn't
shown
even when "show bookmarks" is checked?"
(Although apparently the second question is somehow "included" in
the
first,
so maybe it's just one question... ~shrug~ He's the grammar
expert, so
who am
I to argue?)
Anyone have a clue? Anyone give a rat's?
--

 

[Beth Melton]

I've often wondered this myself. I create a lot of templates that utilize
user forms and resorted to creating a macro to toggle the view of bookmarks.
I view them on the screen along with the other non printing characters so
when I want to turn off all non printing characters I click two buttons now.
(I know, I can easily create a macro that does both but that's not my
point.)

I recently developed a project that included hidden bookmarks used for cross
referencing. And yeah, I wished I could see the hidden bookmarks on the
screen while working on the project since they were being set
programmatically. To work around this issue I used non hidden bookmarks and
then switched them back to hidden. Occasionally the users of the project
encounter issues with the hidden bookmarks, due to editing changes they have
made, and it sure would be nice if they could simply display them on the
screen and make the necessary edits instead of deleting and recreating the
reference.

I personally don't know of any reason why they don't display. This isn't too
different from how the AutoFormatting options were split up at one time,
some in the AutoCorrect dialog box and others in Word Options.

One could argue formatting marks are characters that take up space on the
screen however Object anchors don't take up space and they're included in
the Formatting Marks group.

~Beth Melton
Microsoft Office MVP

"Gordon Bentley-Mix on news.microsoft.com"

 

[Stefan Blom]

I suspect that it is considered a source of confusion for inexperienced
users if hidden bookmarks were displayed when you choose to display
bookmarks.

--
Stefan Blom
Microsoft Word MVP

I've often wondered this myself. I create a lot of templates that utilize
user forms and resorted to creating a macro to toggle the view of
bookmarks. I view them on the screen along with the other non printing
characters so when I want to turn off all non printing characters I click
two buttons now. (I know, I can easily create a macro that does both but
that's not my point.)

I recently developed a project that included hidden bookmarks used for
cross referencing. And yeah, I wished I could see the hidden bookmarks on
the screen while working on the project since they were being set
programmatically. To work around this issue I used non hidden bookmarks
and then switched them back to hidden. Occasionally the users of the
project encounter issues with the hidden bookmarks, due to editing changes
they have made, and it sure would be nice if they could simply display
them on the screen and make the necessary edits instead of deleting and
recreating the reference.

I personally don't know of any reason why they don't display. This isn't
too different from how the AutoFormatting options were split up at one
time, some in the AutoCorrect dialog box and others in Word Options.

One could argue formatting marks are characters that take up space on the
screen however Object anchors don't take up space and they're included in
the Formatting Marks group.

~Beth Melton
Microsoft Office MVP

"Gordon Bentley-Mix on news.microsoft.com"

The question is: "s there a logical reason why bookmarks are not shown
when Non- Printing Characters or Hidden Text is shown, but you have to
specifically request bookmarks to be shown?"

Or maybe it's: "Is there a logical reason why this particular subtype of
bookmark [hidden ones created when inserting a cross-reference] isn't
shown
even when "show bookmarks" is checked?"

 

[Beth Melton]

I think it would be confusing too but if hidden bookmarks only displayed
when in the Bookmarks dialog box you had the "Hidden Bookmarks" option
selected I don't think it would be.

Personally I think this is a great suggestion.

~Beth Melton
Microsoft Office MVP

I suspect that it is considered a source of confusion for inexperienced
users if hidden bookmarks were displayed when you choose to display
bookmarks.

I've often wondered this myself. I create a lot of templates that utilize
user forms and resorted to creating a macro to toggle the view of
bookmarks. I view them on the screen along with the other non printing
characters so when I want to turn off all non printing characters I click
two buttons now. (I know, I can easily create a macro that does both but
that's not my point.)

I recently developed a project that included hidden bookmarks used for
cross referencing. And yeah, I wished I could see the hidden bookmarks on
the screen while working on the project since they were being set
programmatically. To work around this issue I used non hidden bookmarks
and then switched them back to hidden. Occasionally the users of the
project encounter issues with the hidden bookmarks, due to editing
changes
they have made, and it sure would be nice if they could simply display
them on the screen and make the necessary edits instead of deleting and
recreating the reference.

I personally don't know of any reason why they don't display. This isn't
too different from how the AutoFormatting options were split up at one
time, some in the AutoCorrect dialog box and others in Word Options.

One could argue formatting marks are characters that take up space on the
screen however Object anchors don't take up space and they're included in
the Formatting Marks group.

~Beth Melton
Microsoft Office MVP

"Gordon Bentley-Mix on news.microsoft.com"

The question is: "s there a logical reason why bookmarks are not
shown
when Non- Printing Characters or Hidden Text is shown, but you have to
specifically request bookmarks to be shown?"

Or maybe it's: "Is there a logical reason why this particular subtype of
bookmark [hidden ones created when inserting a cross-reference] isn't
shown
even when "show bookmarks" is checked?"

 

[Stefan Blom]

I agree.

--
Stefan Blom
Microsoft Word MVP

I think it would be confusing too but if hidden bookmarks only displayed
when in the Bookmarks dialog box you had the "Hidden Bookmarks" option
selected I don't think it would be.

Personally I think this is a great suggestion.

~Beth Melton
Microsoft Office MVP

I suspect that it is considered a source of confusion for inexperienced
users if hidden bookmarks were displayed when you choose to display
bookmarks.

I've often wondered this myself. I create a lot of templates that utilize
user forms and resorted to creating a macro to toggle the view of
bookmarks. I view them on the screen along with the other non printing
characters so when I want to turn off all non printing characters I click
two buttons now. (I know, I can easily create a macro that does both but
that's not my point.)

I recently developed a project that included hidden bookmarks used for
cross referencing. And yeah, I wished I could see the hidden bookmarks on
the screen while working on the project since they were being set
programmatically. To work around this issue I used non hidden bookmarks
and then switched them back to hidden. Occasionally the users of the
project encounter issues with the hidden bookmarks, due to editing
changes
they have made, and it sure would be nice if they could simply display
them on the screen and make the necessary edits instead of deleting and
recreating the reference.

I personally don't know of any reason why they don't display. This isn't
too different from how the AutoFormatting options were split up at one
time, some in the AutoCorrect dialog box and others in Word Options.

One could argue formatting marks are characters that take up space on the
screen however Object anchors don't take up space and they're included in
the Formatting Marks group.

~Beth Melton
Microsoft Office MVP

"Gordon Bentley-Mix on news.microsoft.com"
<gordon(dot)bentleymix(at)gmail(dot)com> wrote in message
The question is: "s there a logical reason why bookmarks are not
shown
when Non- Printing Characters or Hidden Text is shown, but you have to
specifically request bookmarks to be shown?"

Or maybe it's: "Is there a logical reason why this particular subtype of
bookmark [hidden ones created when inserting a cross-reference] isn't
shown
even when "show bookmarks" is checked?"