Question about Program Files organization

[Randem]

Hint: The OS does not scatter anything, it is the apllication installer that
places things where they need to be.

--
Randem Systems
Your Installation Specialist
The Top Inno Setup Script Generator
http://www.randem.com/innoscript.html
Disk Read Error Press Ctl+Alt+Del to Restart
http://www.randem.com/discus/messages/9402/9406.html?1236319938

 

[Sam S]

How many times have you downloaded a program, installed in the default
location (Program Files on C drive), then forgot about it because you don't
use it much. I accumulate so many programs over time that I thought it
would be great to have them organized properly. Like all antivirus/malware
protection files could be in one place. All video players could be in one
place. Photo editors, PDF readers, not to mention a myriad of utilities -
all organized for easy retrieval later. If one program doesn't work for the
task, you try the others in the list.

Unfortunately Microsoft's (and Apple's OS X) design teams fail to grasp this
concept.
So I tried "refoldering" some software. Most seemed to be fine though there
was an initial delay as it found the new location. Some didn't work at all
(Folder Size, Clamwin and a couple of others) which I removed with
Add/Remove Programs in Control Panel, then reinstalled in their new
organized locations. Folder Size seems to be more stubborn! But almost all
the others seemed to be fine.

Then I thought wouldn't it be nice to have all the programs on a different
partition but then realized that even if it installs OK on a non-C partition
there may still be System 32 files, stuff in Application Data (Hidden in
Documents and Settings) and other locations. I thought Apple was bad at
this but it seems both operating systems scatter stuff all over the place.
So maybe it doesn't matter at all if its on a different partition since many
programs won't work if some of the stuff on C drive is inaccessible.

 

[Crave Worldwide]

Hint: The OS does not scatter anything, it is the apllication installer that
places things where they need to be.

--
Randem Systems
Your Installation Specialist
The Top Inno Setup Script Generatorhttp://www.randem.com/innoscript.html
Disk Read Error Press Ctl+Alt+Del to Restarthttp://www.randem.com/discus/messages/9402/9406.html?1236319938

I use my D: to install all programs at one place. You cannot avoid
installers copying few files into system32 and windows folder. It is
required by nature. If I decide to uninstall programs or wash them out
then I just delete the "program files" folder in extreme case.

 

[PA Bear [MS MVP]]

First Law of Computing: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

NB: Many applications' Program folders /must/ be located on the boot drive.

 

[Bill in Co.]

First Law of Computing: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

NB: Many applications' Program folders /must/ be located on the boot
drive.

Yup. Which is why it makes the most sense to install them there.
Thinking you've covered the bases by installing the programs onto another
drive makes little sense, since its truly incomplete. The program
installation is actually split between two drives, then.

However, putting audio or video FILES (not programs) onto another drive can
make good sense, especially if you have a large collection or a bunch of
huge files there (and for video, that's pretty common).

 

[Tim Meddick]

Despite what people are saying, most 3rd-party programs will install into a
'Program Files' folder that is located on another drive [partition].

The problem comes when you try to move the location of the 'Program Files'
folder. If you were move it to, say, your [D:] drive, immediately after
installing XP then it becomes feasible. If you do this any later on, so
many program will cease to function correctly.

You move the default location of the 'Program Files' folder by changing it's
value specified in the registry under:

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion]
"ProgramFilesDir"="C:\Program Files"

....this sets the system environment variable: %ProgramFiles% and
subsequently, any [most] times a new program installs itself, it will (IF it
asks), will ask you for a location somewhere within this specified
directory.

Also, it does not matter at all if the "%ProgramFiles%" folder is on a
different 'drive' to your system drive.

Programs will sometimes install files in addition to their main executable
files in their named folder within the "%ProgramFiles%" folder, will place
additional files in the following locations:


"%ProgramFiles%\Common Files"

"%SystemRoot%\system32"

"%USERPROFILE%\Local Settings\Application Data"

"%USERPROFILE%\Application Data"

"%ALLUSERPROFILE%\Application Data"


...as you can see, these other locations are not dependent on what drive they
are on but are specified with the use of %variables% - no matter what
drive they are on.

While I will agree that *some* programs may require themselves to be
installed on the system drive [C:] most programs will quite happily allow
themselves to be installed into the 'default' "%ProgramFiles%"
directory - no matter where that is. Although, again, changing the
"%ProgramFiles%" folder after programs have been installed there will more
than likely result in them ceasing to work.

==

Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London.

 

[Sam S]

Guess it doesn't matter who does what. Stuff gets scattered which means
backup is a nightmare unless you backup the whole drive. Guess that's the
only answer. The problem of course with that is that if C: gets messed up,
you need several backups at different time increments to protect yourself
from putting the problem right back in.

Can anyone recommend a website that explains this well? I'd love to be able
to backup all the settings from all my programs so when I reinstall the OS,
it doesn't take 10 hours to get everything back to normal. I bet not 1 in
10 Windows users has any clue about this.

 

[Sam S]

I see you guys mean. But are there specific locations where things CAN be?
And does it look like I can at least organize the programs into groups in
Program Files? So far there seems to be no issues (except with a couple of
programs.) Microsoft programs don't seem to like being renamed or
refoldered. But I hardly use any Microsoft programs as they are almost
never the best available in any particular area.

 

[PA Bear [MS MVP]]

Stop snooping around in Windows Explorer and go worry about something else
like the economy or whirled peas.

 

[Bill in Co.]

I see you guys mean. But are there specific locations where things CAN
be?
And does it look like I can at least organize the programs into groups in
Program Files?

No. And at least absolutely not for the programs already installed, or
you'll often break them (due to their current registry references).
Besides which, it just makes little sense to try to do this, anyways. IF
you want to control where things are stored, leave that to your documents,
or some other files you have saved and/or downloaded, and not to the
contents of the \program files folder, OR the \windows folder, and their
subfolders. Leave the system folders alone.

 

[Bill in Co.]

Despite what people are saying, most 3rd-party programs will install into
a
'Program Files' folder that is located on another drive [partition].

You can do that - nobody said you couldn't, by the way. But it generally
makes little sense to do so, for the reasons already stated.

If your primary drive partition C: is too low on disk space, you either need
to enlarge its partition or just buy another drive and replace it. And 40
GB (for example) is more than ample for XP Home. 40 GB these days is just
a drop in the bucket in disk space.

The problem comes when you try to move the location of the 'Program Files'
folder. If you were move it to, say, your [D:] drive, immediately after
installing XP then it becomes feasible. If you do this any later on, so
many program will cease to function correctly.

You move the default location of the 'Program Files' folder by changing
it's
value specified in the registry under:

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion]
"ProgramFilesDir"="C:\Program Files"

...this sets the system environment variable: %ProgramFiles% and
subsequently, any [most] times a new program installs itself, it will (IF
it
asks), will ask you for a location somewhere within this specified
directory.

Also, it does not matter at all if the "%ProgramFiles%" folder is on a
different 'drive' to your system drive.

Programs will sometimes install files in addition to their main executable
files in their named folder within the "%ProgramFiles%" folder, will
place
additional files in the following locations:


"%ProgramFiles%\Common Files"

"%SystemRoot%\system32"

"%USERPROFILE%\Local Settings\Application Data"

"%USERPROFILE%\Application Data"

"%ALLUSERPROFILE%\Application Data"


..as you can see, these other locations are not dependent on what drive
they
are on but are specified with the use of %variables% - no matter what
drive they are on.

While I will agree that *some* programs may require themselves to be
installed on the system drive [C:] most programs will quite happily allow
themselves to be installed into the 'default' "%ProgramFiles%"
directory - no matter where that is. Although, again, changing the
"%ProgramFiles%" folder after programs have been installed there will more
than likely result in them ceasing to work.

==

Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London.

Guess it doesn't matter who does what. Stuff gets scattered which means
backup is a nightmare unless you backup the whole drive. Guess that's
the
only answer. The problem of course with that is that if C: gets messed
up, you need several backups at different time increments to protect
yourself from putting the problem right back in.

Can anyone recommend a website that explains this well? I'd love to be
able to backup all the settings from all my programs so when I reinstall
the OS, it doesn't take 10 hours to get everything back to normal. I bet
not 1 in 10 Windows users has any clue about this.

 

[Sam S]

I see what you guys mean. But are there specific locations where things

No. And at least absolutely not for the programs already installed, or
you'll often break them (due to their current registry references).
Besides which, it just makes little sense to try to do this, anyways.
IF you want to control where things are stored, leave that to your
documents, or some other files you have saved and/or downloaded, and not
to the contents of the \program files folder, OR the \windows folder, and
their subfolders. Leave the system folders alone.

First of all I should preface this by saying this has nothing to do with
Microsoft programs. Since they aren't the best in anything, this is only
relevant to 3rd party programs.
Well I'm happy to report that for most programs they work fine after they
are "refoldered". The few that don't need to be reinstalled. That only
takes a minute. So far it appears that settings are retained. Whew. That
saves a mountain of work. Yes you'll find that once in a while a program
has to be in C:\Program Files. Mostly utlities like anti virus programs or
something else that runs in the background all the time like Folder Size
(Awesome program!!!)

So far there seems to be no issues (except with a couple of
programs.) Microsoft programs don't seem to like being renamed or
refoldered. But I hardly use any Microsoft programs as they are almost
never the best available in any particular area.

PA Bear [MS MVP] wrote:
First Law of Computing: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

NB: Many applications' Program folders /must/ be located on the boot
drive.

Yup. Which is why it makes the most sense to install them there.
Thinking you've covered the bases by installing the programs onto
another
drive makes little sense, since its truly incomplete. The program
installation is actually split between two drives, then.

However, putting audio or video FILES (not programs) onto another drive
can make good sense, especially if you have a large collection or a
bunch
of huge files there (and for video, that's pretty common).


~Robear Dyer (PA Bear)
MS MVP-IE, Mail, Security, Windows Client - since 2002


Sam S wrote:
How many times have you downloaded a program, installed in the default
location (Program Files on C drive), then forgot about it because you
don't
use it much. I accumulate so many programs over time that I thought
it
would be great to have them organized properly. Like all
antivirus/malware
protection files could be in one place. All video players could be in
one
place. Photo editors, PDF readers, not to mention a myriad of
utilities -
all organized for easy retrieval later. If one program doesn't work
for
the
task, you try the others in the list.

Unfortunately Microsoft's (and Apple's OS X) design teams fail to
grasp
this
concept.
So I tried "refoldering" some software. Most seemed to be fine though
there
was an initial delay as it found the new location. Some didn't work
at
all
(Folder Size, Clamwin and a couple of others) which I removed with
Add/Remove Programs in Control Panel, then reinstalled in their new
organized locations. Folder Size seems to be more stubborn! But
almost
all
the others seemed to be fine.

Then I thought wouldn't it be nice to have all the programs on a
different
partition but then realized that even if it installs OK on a non-C
partition
there may still be System 32 files, stuff in Application Data (Hidden
in
Documents and Settings) and other locations. I thought Apple was bad
at
this but it seems both operating systems scatter stuff all over the
place.
So maybe it doesn't matter at all if its on a different partition
since
many
programs won't work if some of the stuff on C drive is inaccessible.

 

[Bill in Co.]

First of all I should preface this by saying this has nothing to do with
Microsoft programs. Since they aren't the best in anything, this is only
relevant to 3rd party programs.
Well I'm happy to report that for most programs they work fine after they
are "refoldered". The few that don't need to be reinstalled.

You mean the few that don't that you've run across so far, at this point.

That only takes a minute. So far it appears that settings are retained.
Whew. That saves a mountain of work.

If you really want to save a mountain of work, it's just better to leave
them be, in their normal default locations. But I think you're past that
point now.

Yes you'll find that once in a while a program
has to be in C:\Program Files. Mostly utlities like anti virus programs
or
something else that runs in the background all the time like Folder Size
(Awesome program!!!)

So far there seems to be no issues (except with a couple of
programs.) Microsoft programs don't seem to like being renamed or
refoldered. But I hardly use any Microsoft programs as they are almost
never the best available in any particular area.

PA Bear [MS MVP] wrote:
First Law of Computing: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

NB: Many applications' Program folders /must/ be located on the boot
drive.

Yup. Which is why it makes the most sense to install them there.
Thinking you've covered the bases by installing the programs onto
another
drive makes little sense, since its truly incomplete. The program
installation is actually split between two drives, then.

However, putting audio or video FILES (not programs) onto another drive
can make good sense, especially if you have a large collection or a
bunch of huge files there (and for video, that's pretty common).


~Robear Dyer (PA Bear)
MS MVP-IE, Mail, Security, Windows Client - since 2002


Sam S wrote:
How many times have you downloaded a program, installed in the
default location (Program Files on C drive), then forgot about it
because you don't
use it much. I accumulate so many programs over time that I thought
it would be great to have them organized properly. Like all
antivirus/malware
protection files could be in one place. All video players could be
in
one> place. Photo editors, PDF readers, not to mention a myriad of
utilities -
all organized for easy retrieval later. If one program doesn't work
for the task, you try the others in the list.

Unfortunately Microsoft's (and Apple's OS X) design teams fail to
grasp this concept.
So I tried "refoldering" some software. Most seemed to be fine
though
there
was an initial delay as it found the new location. Some didn't work
at all
(Folder Size, Clamwin and a couple of others) which I removed with
Add/Remove Programs in Control Panel, then reinstalled in their new
organized locations. Folder Size seems to be more stubborn! But
almost all the others seemed to be fine.

Then I thought wouldn't it be nice to have all the programs on a
different
partition but then realized that even if it installs OK on a non-C
partition
there may still be System 32 files, stuff in Application Data (Hidden
in
Documents and Settings) and other locations. I thought Apple was bad
at this but it seems both operating systems scatter stuff all over
the
place.
So maybe it doesn't matter at all if its on a different partition
since
many
programs won't work if some of the stuff on C drive is inaccessible.

 

[Tim Meddick]

Sam,
I have to strongly disagree with you that 'most' programs "work
fine after they are 'refoldered' " - I seriously doubt that the number of
program that will run with no problems or issues, whatsoever, can be
interpreted as "most".

Sometimes, it can be just one registry entry, belonging to a program, of a
path pointing back to the program, that becomes invalid after moving
[re-naming] it's folder. That can be enough to make the program inoperable.

And, of course, no matter what program you're talking about, *all* the
shortcuts to it are going to become immediately invalid.

While, I believe, it is true that, if you have some knowledge of computers,
you should, in *most* cases, be able to GET a program to work after changing
the path to it, there is no way you will be able to make every program run,
even if you ARE a PC genius!

By far the best approach would be to put some thought into WHERE you place
your programs, when they ask you for a location, DURING a program's
installation process.


==

Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London.

No. And at least absolutely not for the programs already installed, or
you'll often break them (due to their current registry references).
Besides which, it just makes little sense to try to do this, anyways. IF
you want to control where things are stored, leave that to your
documents, or some other files you have saved and/or downloaded, and not
to the contents of the \program files folder, OR the \windows folder, and
their subfolders. Leave the system folders alone.

First of all I should preface this by saying this has nothing to do with
Microsoft programs. Since they aren't the best in anything, this is only
relevant to 3rd party programs.
Well I'm happy to report that for most programs they work fine after they
are "refoldered". The few that don't need to be reinstalled. That only
takes a minute. So far it appears that settings are retained. Whew.
That saves a mountain of work. Yes you'll find that once in a while a
program has to be in C:\Program Files. Mostly utlities like anti virus
programs or something else that runs in the background all the time like
Folder Size (Awesome program!!!)

So far there seems to be no issues (except with a couple of
programs.) Microsoft programs don't seem to like being renamed or
refoldered. But I hardly use any Microsoft programs as they are almost
never the best available in any particular area.

PA Bear [MS MVP] wrote:
First Law of Computing: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

NB: Many applications' Program folders /must/ be located on the boot
drive.

Yup. Which is why it makes the most sense to install them there.
Thinking you've covered the bases by installing the programs onto
another
drive makes little sense, since its truly incomplete. The program
installation is actually split between two drives, then.

However, putting audio or video FILES (not programs) onto another drive
can make good sense, especially if you have a large collection or a
bunch
of huge files there (and for video, that's pretty common).


~Robear Dyer (PA Bear)
MS MVP-IE, Mail, Security, Windows Client - since 2002


Sam S wrote:
How many times have you downloaded a program, installed in the
default
location (Program Files on C drive), then forgot about it because you
don't
use it much. I accumulate so many programs over time that I thought
it
would be great to have them organized properly. Like all
antivirus/malware
protection files could be in one place. All video players could be
in
one
place. Photo editors, PDF readers, not to mention a myriad of
utilities -
all organized for easy retrieval later. If one program doesn't work
for
the
task, you try the others in the list.

Unfortunately Microsoft's (and Apple's OS X) design teams fail to
grasp
this
concept.
So I tried "refoldering" some software. Most seemed to be fine
though
there
was an initial delay as it found the new location. Some didn't work
at
all
(Folder Size, Clamwin and a couple of others) which I removed with
Add/Remove Programs in Control Panel, then reinstalled in their new
organized locations. Folder Size seems to be more stubborn! But
almost
all
the others seemed to be fine.

Then I thought wouldn't it be nice to have all the programs on a
different
partition but then realized that even if it installs OK on a non-C
partition
there may still be System 32 files, stuff in Application Data (Hidden
in
Documents and Settings) and other locations. I thought Apple was bad
at
this but it seems both operating systems scatter stuff all over the
place.
So maybe it doesn't matter at all if its on a different partition
since
many
programs won't work if some of the stuff on C drive is inaccessible.

 

[C.Joseph Drayton]

Guess it doesn't matter who does what. Stuff gets scattered which means
backup is a nightmare unless you backup the whole drive. Guess that's the
only answer. The problem of course with that is that if C: gets messed up,
you need several backups at different time increments to protect yourself
from putting the problem right back in.

Can anyone recommend a website that explains this well? I'd love to be able
to backup all the settings from all my programs so when I reinstall the OS,
it doesn't take 10 hours to get everything back to normal. I bet not 1 in
10 Windows users has any clue about this.

Hi Sam S,

You raise a couple of different issues although they might
appear to be the same problem.

1) A lot of applications these days are written with things
like .NET. This makes writing the application easier for the
programmer, the cost is that it uses run-time packages.
Those run-time packages tend to get installed in 'common'
directories to be shared.

2) Since it is common to write settings to the registry you
can't move things. Since you would also have to make the
necessary changes to the registry.

3) Backing up applications quite often without backing up
the registry means a re-install HAS to be done.

The solution that I use is to use portable/non-install types
of applications. I have browsers, e-mail clients,
anti-malware, editors, etc that are all non-install.

I have some applications that must be installed but my basic
developing system fits on an 8GB thumbdrive and are all
non-install. Recently I had to replace my system hard disk
and be ready to log into work in about an hour. I installed
WindowsXP, plugged in the thumbdrive. I copied the
thumbdrive pUtilities directory to my 'C:' drive and logged
into work on time.

The applications that I run that must be installed tend to
allow me to decide where to save all of my settings for that
application to. I already moved 'My Documents' to my second
physical hard disk and created a 'Application Settings'
directory and have setting saved there.

On the PoratbleApps web site, you can find a application
that can change "some" installed application to non-install
applications.

Sincerely,
C.Joseph Drayton, Ph.D. AS&T

CSD Computer Services

Web site: http://csdcs.site90.net/
E-mail: (e-mail address removed)90.net

 

[Twayne]

Here's my 2 ¢ on all this:


Your problem here is inexperience with what is necessary for windows to
run and what isn't. Normally backups are done by drive letter. If
however there is only one disk drive, then it can be done in two parts:
One for the system and one for data.
"Data" is usually meant to be files and things you have created
yourself, on purpose. Pictures, letters to Aunt May, Ebay auction
results, Excel spreadsheets, etc. etc.. If you ahve created folders
under My Documents for all those, then all your data resides in My
Documents; easy to back up. If not, you have to know where else you put
things and remember to back those up too at the same time.
Everything else on a single drive system is going to be sytem files
for all practical purposes. So, you make a system backup of everything
but My Documents and anything else you've created yourself. That's one
backup. Then you backup your data, or everything in My documents plus
whatever else you might have created that's not under that folder. Two
backups: done.
IMaging programs make all that a lot easier to do and automate the
processes. IMO Norton Ghost is the best with Acronis True Image running
a very close second. Acronis is a little cheaper than Ghost.

Actually, many people do know that/this; they are simply more
experienced and have spent more time with it than you likely have.
Plus, some people "get it" right away and others don't. Anyway, here
are some links that should provide more than you thought about asking on
the subject:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backup_types

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc784306(WS.10).aspx

http://www.microsoft.com/protect/yourself/data/what.mspx

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/309340

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/322756

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/setup/maintain/backupfiles.mspx

http://vlaurie.com/computers2/Articles/xpbackup.htm

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/setup/learnmore/bott_03july14.mspx

www.symantec.com (see Ghost)

http://www.acronis.com/homecomputing/

http://www.acronis.com/smb/products/choose-trueimage/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acronis

http://club.cdfreaks.com/f81/

You can find those and a lot more with your favorite Search Engine.



The best way to accomplish something like that is to create folders and
populate the folders with all related shortcuts. One for editors,
another for Security programs, another to ... whatever you want. I do
just that, in fact, and then turn on the Desktop Menu in the TaskBar;
makes it very simple to use and always available on the taskbar.


Partitioning can be handy if one wants to. One partition can be for the
system. Nothing but the system files there. The other for your data.
You back up whichever one you wish to backup. Hopefully on a schedule
and with proper methods.

http://free-backup.info/separation-is-critical-to-your-backup-strategy.html

http://www.techworld.com/storage/features/index.cfm?featureid=69

http://counsellingresource.com/practice/security/backup-case-study.html

http://www.networksecurityjournal.com/features/bulletproof-backup-strategy-012908/




The following, though possible to a degree, is quite unreasonable for
the inexperienced user:

Hi Sam S,

You raise a couple of different issues although they might
appear to be the same problem.

....

HTH,

Twayne`