Problems with USB Hubs

[Dr. Dos]

This is about new Belkin 7 port hubs, but I have had the
same problems with JASCO GE 7 port hubs.
I there there something endemically wrong with USB hubs and
WinXP Pro, or maybe Toshiba notebooks, even if years apart
in design and manufacture?
Well, here's the story:
I have two of these Bel kin's ganged together. Every other
time the computer is rebooted, the hubs flash several of the
port green lights, and then go dark. As the computer boots
into WinXpSP2, no green port lights come on. The red power
light stays on UNLESS I turn off the power supplies, then no
red light. The computer hangs as the first Win splash screen
comes ip. The splash screen is very faded, and the computer
fan goes to highest speed, either because of overheating or
running at 100% (I cannot say which).
When I reboot, and turn of the power to the hubs and turn it
on, the computer boots normally, and the hubs recognize all
but one of the attachments, a Samsung clp550n printer. If I
unplug the usb from the printer and plug it back, the
Samsung gets recognized. Also, I have a Western Digital
160gb Passport attached. When I run Retrospect (backup) 6,
every other time, it hangs up. I have determined this is
because Retrospect "loses" the drive.
I also have a logitech webcam that is not recognize on
bootup, but has to be unplugged and replugged like the samsung.
In my experimentation, I have these problems when the second
hub is not changed, and not connected. I have flopped the
hubs. I have had to find the right sequence for port usage
or either a device is not recognized, or, in the case of a
Brother 6800 printer/scanner, the scanner hangs up during
each scan job. The scanner and the WD 160 Passport work OK
when hooked up to the port replicator or the computer.

Configuration:
Toshiba Tecra M5 duo core processor 2.0 GHz.
1.56 gbyt ram
Toshiba advance port replicator III+
Hang-ons to Hub
Samsung external DVD burner (externally powered)
Maxtor One Touch 80Gbt HDD (externally powered)
Maxtor One Touch 275 Gbt HDD (externally powered)
Brother 68-00 printer (externally powered)
Plantronics DSP Headset (usb powered)
WD Passport 160 Gbt HDD (usb powered)
Logitech webcam (usb powered).

I have also tried this with a Toshiba Satellite Pro M10 with
similar results.
I suspect a power problem with the hubs OR, a bandwidth
problem, or a switching problem or some sort of "timing" issue.

Any ideas what settings are needed to experience normal
bootups, normal recognition of devices, and normal function
of devices when using this (these) hub(s).

Thanks for reading through this.

 

[mikeyhsd]

sounds like the hubs are drawing too much power from the computer, even though you imply they are powered hubs.
if they are not POWERED hubs, then for sure they are drawing too much power from the computer.


does this happen if you only have one of the hubs plugged in.
or how about plugging them into different usb ports on the computer.

do you really need 2 7 port hubs.



(e-mail address removed)



This is about new Belkin 7 port hubs, but I have had the
same problems with JASCO GE 7 port hubs.
I there there something endemically wrong with USB hubs and
WinXP Pro, or maybe Toshiba notebooks, even if years apart
in design and manufacture?
Well, here's the story:
I have two of these Bel kin's ganged together. Every other
time the computer is rebooted, the hubs flash several of the
port green lights, and then go dark. As the computer boots
into WinXpSP2, no green port lights come on. The red power
light stays on UNLESS I turn off the power supplies, then no
red light. The computer hangs as the first Win splash screen
comes ip. The splash screen is very faded, and the computer
fan goes to highest speed, either because of overheating or
running at 100% (I cannot say which).
When I reboot, and turn of the power to the hubs and turn it
on, the computer boots normally, and the hubs recognize all
but one of the attachments, a Samsung clp550n printer. If I
unplug the usb from the printer and plug it back, the
Samsung gets recognized. Also, I have a Western Digital
160gb Passport attached. When I run Retrospect (backup) 6,
every other time, it hangs up. I have determined this is
because Retrospect "loses" the drive.
I also have a logitech webcam that is not recognize on
bootup, but has to be unplugged and replugged like the samsung.
In my experimentation, I have these problems when the second
hub is not changed, and not connected. I have flopped the
hubs. I have had to find the right sequence for port usage
or either a device is not recognized, or, in the case of a
Brother 6800 printer/scanner, the scanner hangs up during
each scan job. The scanner and the WD 160 Passport work OK
when hooked up to the port replicator or the computer.

Configuration:
Toshiba Tecra M5 duo core processor 2.0 GHz.
1.56 gbyt ram
Toshiba advance port replicator III+
Hang-ons to Hub
Samsung external DVD burner (externally powered)
Maxtor One Touch 80Gbt HDD (externally powered)
Maxtor One Touch 275 Gbt HDD (externally powered)
Brother 68-00 printer (externally powered)
Plantronics DSP Headset (usb powered)
WD Passport 160 Gbt HDD (usb powered)
Logitech webcam (usb powered).

I have also tried this with a Toshiba Satellite Pro M10 with
similar results.
I suspect a power problem with the hubs OR, a bandwidth
problem, or a switching problem or some sort of "timing" issue.

Any ideas what settings are needed to experience normal
bootups, normal recognition of devices, and normal function
of devices when using this (these) hub(s).

Thanks for reading through this.

 

[Dr. Dos]

sounds like the hubs are drawing too much power from the computer, even
though you imply they are powered hubs.
if they are not POWERED hubs, then for sure they are drawing too much
power from the computer.


does this happen if you only have one of the hubs plugged in.
or how about plugging them into different usb ports on the computer.

do you really need 2 7 port hubs.

If I power up the hubs separately, it causes the extreme
screen dim-out, the hang-up and the cooling fan speed up.
Maybe I have a power problem with the replicator port?? But,
does this explain the time-outs/bandwidth/non-connects when
the hubs do come up normal?

 

[Beverly Howard [Ms-MVP/MobileDev]]

screen dim <<

!!! something is _very_ wrong... wrong power supply, wrong polarity,
wrong voltage, wrong switch setting, bad cable, hardware failure in the
hub, hardware failure in the pc's usb connection/hub

check for a switch on the hubs and confirm that it is in the correct
position

Make sure you don't sacrifice your computer trying to get a defective
$15 hub working.

Beverly Howard [MS MVP-Mobile Devices]

 

[Dr. Dos]

!!! something is _very_ wrong... wrong power supply, wrong polarity,
wrong voltage, wrong switch setting, bad cable, hardware failure in the
hub, hardware failure in the pc's usb connection/hub

check for a switch on the hubs and confirm that it is in the correct
position

Make sure you don't sacrifice your computer trying to get a defective
$15 hub working.

Beverly Howard [MS MVP-Mobile Devices]

Yes. A set of worries I have.
These are $50 hubs (Belkin's top of the line). Also happens
with JASCO/GE hubs, also not cheap. No switches to set.
Variety of standard or supplied cables. Specified and
supplied power supplies.
Happens on two different Toshiba port replicators. No
switches to set.
I have used a total 10 different hubs.
I am suspicious of the port replicators and will be in touch
(a futility) with Toshiba.

 

[Beverly Howard [Ms-MVP/MobileDev]]

if the same thing is happening with multiple hubs, that would point
directly to a computer hardware problem

Its somewhat radical, but, one of the things I would do would be (with
nothing usb connected)

device manager

view/showhiddendevices

universal serial bus controllers

delete _everything_ under this section

action/scan....

Note... normally there will be no problem as the computer will
"rediscover" each onboard usb hub and reinstall the drivers which are
already in place, but this sometimes exposes the fact that the correct
drivers are not in place.

Then attach one of the hubs.

Beverly Howard [MS MVP-Mobile Devices]

 

[Beverly Howard [Ms-MVP/MobileDev]]

also (just took a look at the pictures of the belkin 7) make _sure_ you
use the cable that shipped with the unit for testing...

The computer->hub connector is a mini 5 pin connector which contains a
fifth "power" connector which is used to provide power to devices such
as charging pda's and camera's

some of the "mini" cables have this fifth pin wired and some don't...
there is a tiny chance that the belkin unit may create a conflict
between this connection and the external power connector if it's not the
one that shipped with the unit.

Beverly Howard [MS MVP-Mobile Devices]

 

[Dr. Dos]

if the same thing is happening with multiple hubs, that would point
directly to a computer hardware problem

Its somewhat radical, but, one of the things I would do would be (with
nothing usb connected)

device manager

view/showhiddendevices

universal serial bus controllers

delete _everything_ under this section

action/scan....

Note... normally there will be no problem as the computer will
"rediscover" each onboard usb hub and reinstall the drivers which are
already in place, but this sometimes exposes the fact that the correct
drivers are not in place.

Then attach one of the hubs.

Beverly Howard [MS MVP-Mobile Devices]

Thank you for your continuing interest.

I will try your suggestions.

 

[Dr. Dos]

also (just took a look at the pictures of the belkin 7) make _sure_ you
use the cable that shipped with the unit for testing...

The computer->hub connector is a mini 5 pin connector which contains a
fifth "power" connector which is used to provide power to devices such
as charging pda's and camera's

some of the "mini" cables have this fifth pin wired and some don't...
there is a tiny chance that the belkin unit may create a conflict
between this connection and the external power connector if it's not the
one that shipped with the unit.

Beverly Howard [MS MVP-Mobile Devices]

Cables are from Belkin. 5 pin minis. Yes power gets to the
hubs from the computer if I turn off the AC power to them.
Because this happens with two computers (although the faded
image/fan speed up (heat?)issue is only on one machine), I
am thinking either an endemic design problem with different
Toshiba chases, or some weird interface action with ALL usb
hubs. I had a similar problem with a third Toshiba
(satellite a40) when booting from an Apricorn cloning CD to
clone to a Western Digital Passport. The WD HDD has its own
external power supply. I change the clone CD from version
8.22 to 8.19 and the fading/fan speed up/overheating (this
computer CPU overheated) stopped and the clone process went
forward. There may be (XP-Pro SP2)(linix) USB driver issues
that Toshibas are sensitive to.


I continue to troubleshoot.
Toshiba spent an hour on this by phone.
Toshiba tech support also cannot say what limits the
replicator port has regarding the number of devices
connected to hang-on hubs. You'd think someone would know
the specs!!!
I have updated the BIOS, and a set of drivers/utilities,
even though this is a new machine. Cannot yet say this has
made any difference.
Through the troubleshooting, it was found that one hang-on
device (Logitech webcam) was drawing 500 mA. This could be
enough to mess-up the hubs, even though the hubs have
external power applied.

Also, these problems exist even when the webcam is not
connected, so I think this is a red haring.

Belkin tech support has "invited" me to call in for tech
support. E-mail was not sufficient for Belkin to interact,
they said in a e-mail.

 

[Beverly Howard [Ms-MVP/MobileDev]]

Computers in general and laptops in particular have issues with the
amount of usb power they can provide... in some cases, unpowered hubs
will only support non power intensive devices such as mice or keyboards
and the ports will shut down when any appreciable drain is encountered.

the Belkin 7 can quickly end up demanding a huge amount of power from a
single usb port on the laptop if multiple devices are attached with no
external power supply to the hub, so the external adapter should be
considered essential if you need and use more than a couple of ports.

A list of what devices are or might be attached to the hub would help
along with indications as to where the devices will get their power.

Beverly Howard [MS MVP-Mobile Devices]

 

[Lil' Dave]

This is about new Belkin 7 port hubs, but I have had the same problems
with JASCO GE 7 port hubs.
I there there something endemically wrong with USB hubs and WinXP Pro, or
maybe Toshiba notebooks, even if years apart in design and manufacture?
Well, here's the story:
I have two of these Bel kin's ganged together. Every other time the
computer is rebooted, the hubs flash several of the port green lights, and
then go dark. As the computer boots into WinXpSP2, no green port lights
come on. The red power light stays on UNLESS I turn off the power
supplies, then no red light. The computer hangs as the first Win splash
screen comes ip. The splash screen is very faded, and the computer fan
goes to highest speed, either because of overheating or running at 100% (I
cannot say which).
When I reboot, and turn of the power to the hubs and turn it on, the
computer boots normally, and the hubs recognize all but one of the
attachments, a Samsung clp550n printer. If I unplug the usb from the
printer and plug it back, the Samsung gets recognized. Also, I have a
Western Digital 160gb Passport attached. When I run Retrospect (backup) 6,
every other time, it hangs up. I have determined this is because
Retrospect "loses" the drive.
I also have a logitech webcam that is not recognize on bootup, but has to
be unplugged and replugged like the samsung.
In my experimentation, I have these problems when the second hub is not
changed, and not connected. I have flopped the hubs. I have had to find
the right sequence for port usage or either a device is not recognized,
or, in the case of a Brother 6800 printer/scanner, the scanner hangs up
during each scan job. The scanner and the WD 160 Passport work OK when
hooked up to the port replicator or the computer.

Configuration:
Toshiba Tecra M5 duo core processor 2.0 GHz.
1.56 gbyt ram
Toshiba advance port replicator III+
Hang-ons to Hub
Samsung external DVD burner (externally powered)
Maxtor One Touch 80Gbt HDD (externally powered)
Maxtor One Touch 275 Gbt HDD (externally powered)
Brother 68-00 printer (externally powered)
Plantronics DSP Headset (usb powered)
WD Passport 160 Gbt HDD (usb powered)
Logitech webcam (usb powered).

I have also tried this with a Toshiba Satellite Pro M10 with similar
results.
I suspect a power problem with the hubs OR, a bandwidth problem, or a
switching problem or some sort of "timing" issue.

Any ideas what settings are needed to experience normal bootups, normal
recognition of devices, and normal function of devices when using this
(these) hub(s).

Thanks for reading through this.

Dump the hubs. Pretty simple.
Dave

 

[Dr. Dos]

Computers in general and laptops in particular have issues with the
amount of usb power they can provide... in some cases, unpowered hubs
will only support non power intensive devices such as mice or keyboards
and the ports will shut down when any appreciable drain is encountered.

the Belkin 7 can quickly end up demanding a huge amount of power from a
single usb port on the laptop if multiple devices are attached with no
external power supply to the hub, so the external adapter should be
considered essential if you need and use more than a couple of ports.

A list of what devices are or might be attached to the hub would help
along with indications as to where the devices will get their power.

Beverly Howard [MS MVP-Mobile Devices]

See the list of devices attached in the original posting.
Hubs are externally powered.
Only one device, the webcam, is a high drawer, but as I said
before, since it was/is not always attached, this is a red
herring (spelled correctly this time!!).
I conclude your analysis is this situation is a power issue,
particularly related to notebook setups, including docks
(replicator ports).

I still have Belkin to speak to.
Thanks for your continued assistance.
I still have not done the reconstruction you suggest in
device manager. So, there will be some more to this saga.

 

[Dr. Dos]

Dump the hubs. Pretty simple.
Dave

Thanks for your suggestion.
Not a reasonable work-around when there is a need for
multiple devices to be connected simultaneously.